simpy

Just because of the importance of the decision you're going to have to consider AJ, I wanted to say that I fully agree with NutritionRunner's post. Unless you want to put all of your eggs in one basket and apply to Queen's (which isn't a great strategy as the odds of getting accepted to just one school are quite low) you will need to return to school full-time. Another potential pitfall to watch out for is to make sure you do not repeat any courses. Furthermore, you should have a full courseload NOT counting summer (many schools don't count spring/summer courses). One thing you might consider is to take an MCAT prep course and write the MCAT before deciding to go back to school full-time. If you are capable of scoring well on the MCAT then your chance of getting into med school will improve significantly. It's probably better to do this than to do two or three years more undergrad and then realize that you're not able to score well. Also, congrats on the 4.0 over the 3 courses you took!

1) how many years should I do to improve my chances (I know Queen's would be 2 years, but how about UofT?) Queen's is 2 years, Western would be 2 years, Ottawa would be 2-3 years. You'd be able to continue applying to McMaster throughout. A lot depends on your MCAT. Toronto is probably out of the question for you unfortunately. You would need 5 more years of undergrad (at 3.9+) just to hit their minimum GPA (3.6), and almost no one is admitted with the minimum GPA. Your chances would be improved for Toronto if you did another 3 years of undergrad with 3.9+ and followed that up with a very strong Master's or PhD. Unfortunately, Toronto is one of the most unforgiving schools for people who have made mistakes. 2) would it even matter if I transferred credits to my 2nd UG degree if schools like UofT/mac count EVERYTHING in their cGPA calculation? Also, are you able to pick and chose which credits to transfer from your 1st UG degree into your 2nd UG degree (given they're relevant to the subject/degree)? The courses you transfer to your second degree don't matter. All schools look at specific GPA criteria - i.e. GPA over your 2 best years or last 2 years. Schools that look at your second degree GPA (i.e. NOSM or McGill) will simply look at your performance in that second degree (so if you have done 2 years of a second degree they will just look at those 2 years).

I personally know CCHChan and his story is true.

Oldman, thanks very much for adding your information, it's really useful! I agree with you wholeheartedly. Studentmed, I would highly recommend doing a complete honours second undergrad degree. You can probably do this in two years. Make sure you meet Western's requirements. I would do that because with your GPA and MCAT score you will have a very difficult time gaining acceptance in Canada or the United States. You will also need to rewrite your MCAT most likely, aim for above 10 in all sections and a Q in writing.

The one thing that I would add to lost in space's post above is to remember that your undergrad GPA comes first. If you have a 3.0 GPA from undergrad and weighting doesn't help you, a Master's degree will not be particularly useful for entering medicine. If you're borderline competitive though, I'm sure an MSc could help a fair bit.

Haha I'm in for changing that. We'll be cheerleaders for Queen's for next year's cycle.

You have a chance at Calgary no matter what you do. Probably what it is going to come down to the most is how your word your ECs. I would imagine you get the following scores: Academics: 35/50 ECs: 15/25 LOR: ?/10 MCAT: ?/15 You want a score of 71 or higher. The MCAT is therefore important and you will probably want 33+. The key really is wording those ECs - if you do a great job wording it you can probably get 19 or 20 out of 25, if you do a poor job it'll be 13 or 14. Anyway you can see you're going to be fairly borderline. Just do your best on the MCAT and spend a ton of time on your application and you should have a shot.

You should e-mail schools for particulars. This goes back to being VERY CAREFUL about choosing second degrees: many programs require a second degree to be a particular length of time or to be an Honours degree (for instance, Western and NOSM require your second degree to be an Honours degree for it to be counted). If you are doing a second degree in one year (which is possible at many schools, to get a second general degree in one year), this will not be counted. Schools will also look at it differently. The best thing is to send e-mails. Your 1.0 elective credit would definitely be counted, the question is just whether they would consider marks from your past year as part of your current degree also.

Thanks guys Hopefully it helps you and others!

In the last week, I've finished my second undergrad degree and have been accepted to medicine. I constantly see people posting both here and in the general forum about whether doing a second degree is the right option, and there really aren't any stickies or any other resources addressing it. I thought posting my experiences might help others down the road. Doing a second undergraduate degree is not a great way to apply to medicine. If you are an applicant who has a GPA that is almost competitive (or better), a second degree is a waste of time. A graduate degree is a much better option because it not only improves your chances of getting into medicine, but it might improve your chances of landing competitive residencies later on. However, if you are an applicant with an uncompetitive GPA in your first degree, a second degree may be your only option. For instance, my GPA through my first four years was a 2.1 - not only was I ineligible at all Canadian (and international for that matter) medical schools, I would not be accepted at any graduate program. To pursue medicine, it was necessary to do a second degree. Doing a second degree to enter medicine is extremely difficult. There is much less room for error than in a first undergrad degree (a bad semester can ruin everything). You will be the odd person out in classes - you'll be the sixth-year student in a first-year class. You will be joining clubs with 17 year-olds. Your friends will find success in their pursuits and you will feel left behind. If you're in a relationship, it will suffer. You will probably enter into even more debt. And the worst part is that during the application process, medical schools can (and will) judge you based on your past mistakes rather than on more recent successes. The application process can be both capricious and arbitrary - even if you get a 4.0 in your second degree, kill the MCAT, and have amazing extracurriculars you may still never get in. Be Honest and Take Time If you are considering a second undergraduate degree, begin by being brutally honest with yourself. You should first consider where you went wrong. If you did not do well in your first undergrad because you had a physical or mental health issue, has it been completely resolved? Do not begin a second undergraduate degree if not. Take time off and get well - or at least take that time and learn ways to succeed despite the challenges you face before trying again. Did you not do well in your first undergrad because you weren't motivated to succeed? If so, are you really motivated now? Someone PM'ed me saying they had just finished their first undergraduate degree and had done very poorly, but within the first week after finals they had suddenly become motivated to succeed. This is highly unlikely. They might suddenly realize they have graduated and now have to face the real world, but this feeling is not the same as being motivated to succeed. Probably within a month of re-entering a university program this person would lose motivation again. Again, my advice is to take time off of school. Take a minimum of two years and try out different jobs, volunteer, travel, make new friends, live in a different city (or country), just do something different. Time has a way of granting increased clarity - maybe with time you will discover your "motivation" for medicine was simply your perception of what others wanted you to do (which appears to be very common). Or maybe you will discover an innate desire to become a physician. Maybe you didn't do well in your first undergrad because the program was too hard. This is a tricky one. There are a number of reasons for a program being too difficult - maybe it's something you don't enjoy, maybe you haven't adopted the right learning styles for the material you're being taught, maybe you work best in teams and your program is brutally individualistic, or maybe (and this is highly unlikely) your program really is just unfairly difficult. Again - be honest with yourself. One of my friends once asked me about doing a second undergrad to get into medicine, saying that they did poorly in life sciences because they hated it. My first question: "If life sciences was too hard because you don't like the material, how are you going to find medical school?" Another one of my friends was considering a second degree in life sciences after doing three years of a business program - she didn't do very well in her business major but said she hated it. On the other hand, she LOVED her life science electives and had nearly straight A+'es in them. A second degree for her was a no-brainer. You may also have done poorly because you feel that you are not smart enough to succeed. This is VERY rare. I only mention it because I have seen one case of someone who was doing everything right but just couldn't crack 80's. This person loved the material, was working extremely hard, had very good study habits, was very motivated, and found good balance and had a great support network. If this is legitimately your situation, I would question whether medical school would be a good option. I'll just leave it at that, but honestly, this situation is very rare and if you think you fit into this category, consider first if you have actually done everything possible to succeed. If you are still set on a second degree, you need to think about the answer to this question: Why do you want to be a doctor and not a worker in an allied health field? Again: you need to be honest. If your first answer is "because I enjoy helping people," I would reply with, "do nurses help people? Do police officers help people?" and so forth. Write out a list of why you want to go into medicine and figure out if that list is exclusive to being a physician. If it turns out you'd be equally (or more) happy being a nurse or an EMT - do that instead. If, after working in that field, you decide you'd like to apply to medicine (or do a second degree) at a later point you still can - and your application now has some very relevant work experience on it. I don't mention all of this above to discourage you. I only mention it because getting into medicine through the second degree route is very difficult. If you are realistic, in a good place health-wise, motivated, had some proven academic success, and are certain that medicine is the right career, then you have a decent chance of success. Most importantly, remember that there is absolutely no rush to get into medicine. We are always pushed to get ahead and succeed. This works great for some people but not for everyone: some of us need more time to find our niche. Life is a marathon, not a sprint - take some time to sort everything out, it will be worth it in the end. The Practical Side For those of you still reading, I'll get into the more practical side of things. Your primary consideration should be where and in which field to do a second degree. Consult the sticky at the top of this page regarding second degree policies at schools. Be VERY CONSCIOUS of what each school looks for in terms of a second degree - for instance, Western has very strict requirements for that degree. Take the time to review everything before selecting courses within a program (if you aren't paying attention you can very easily kill your eligibility at Western). Also, make sure you are going to be eligible at more than one school. Schools can change their admission requirements which can completely ruin you. It happened most recently with UBC's abolition of the 10-year rule which has seriously compromised the chances of some pretty incredible people both on and off this forum. As for picking a program, send lots of e-mails to departments. Unfortunately, in Ontario it's becoming increasingly difficult to do second degrees (I suspect this may be due to "reach higher" funding being tied to increasing enrolment and second degree students may not count as this). Lots of schools will let you though, so check with programs. Pick one that you're very interested in, and have done well in academically during your first degree. It may be best to pick a program that can also let you review for the MCAT - but this is going to vary for people (if you haven't taken a physics course for instance, try to take one at some point). Generally speaking, it's best to make yourself into a traditional applicant. In addition to performing well academically, you should balance this with extracurriculars - research, clubs, volunteering, etc. A great tip I can offer is to do your best to turn your life and experience into a narrative - if you did poorly during your first degree because you spent too much time playing video games, develop some resources for people who play video games excessively on campus. If, during your time off from university you became a parent, develop resources for other parents on campus or work on programs to empower parents to find change. This makes your application - and your answer to interview questions - much more compelling. Just remember, GPA is king. If you have engineered world peace in your second degree but only have a 3.6 GPA in it, you're going to have a very hard time getting into medical schools in Canada. Also, do start thinking now about the MCAT. Doing well on the MCAT will make your life easier by enabling Queen's and Western as options. You are much more limited if you cannot make cutoffs at these schools. So start practising early (for instance, if you find the verbal section difficult, start reading a lot). Above all, remember that if you are pursuing a second degree you probably have an advantage (however small or obscure) over many first-year students coming in. Make sure to utilize it. As someone with a second undergraduate degree, you not only have to be as good as someone who has only done one degree, you have to be better. Think carefully about ways you can accomplish that. It IS possible to enter medicine from a second degree - but you need to do everything you can to maximize your chances.

Accepted. cGPA 2.78 (not a typo) Last 2: 3.85 MCAT: 12/12/S/11 In disbelief.

I don't think there's much point in you doing another year. If you have a 3.83 after 4 years, even if you had a 4.0 in your next year your cGPA would only move up to a 3.86. This probably won't make a difference anywhere except maybe Ottawa. Better bet is to do a master's if medicine doesn't work out in the near future. But a 3.83 is fairly competitive. A lot will ride on your MCAT and ECs.

Well, I don't know if you have much of a chance in the upcoming cycle unfortunately. You have a couple long shots (NOSM, Mac) though, so you might as well try (no harm in trying, and applying is a positive experience!). But I think if you're now truly motivated for medicine, you should try to stop regretting the past. If "slacking off" for you was a 3.5cGPA from U of T and a 30S MCAT, then there is a lot of room to excel. I think you're at a point where you have to choose if it's what you really want. If it's what you want, then get hungry. You will need to boost your GPA and will want to do two more years (maybe three). You may want to rewrite the MCAT. You will want to work on your extracurriculars. But honestly, if it's what you want, I believe that you can do it. Perhaps consider doing something like a nursing degree, so no matter what you have a backup career to go to. And honestly... you may want to seriously reconsider your aversion to international schools. You'd probably get in next cycle. You would just have to resign yourself to potentially not returning to Canada for awhile.

Possibly. It depends what your average is. If you have written a number of practice exams and are consistently scoring higher, then it might make sense to rewrite. But losing your 11 in verbal would be disastrous. I really wouldn't take the chance unless in practice exams you're consistently doing better.

You will probably get an interview at Queen's. You have a small to medium chance of interviews at both Ottawa and Mac. You will probably not get an interview at Toronto. Schools tend to be fairly hard on applicants applying after their second year. You generally have to be a pretty phenomenal applicant to get in at this point (and I'm not saying you're not; it's just very tough is all). I wouldn't worry too much about it this year. Do your best in interviews but look at them as preparation for next year. You will have a fairly strong application next year. I would not rewrite the MCAT unless you are absolutely confident you can get R again in the writing section and an 11 in verbal (i.e. you consistently get 11+ in practice tests). The last thing you would want is to get a 9 in verbal or a P in writing or something and really screw yourself over. Missing the cutoffs at only one Canadian school (while still having decent scores for the States) is not a great reason to rewrite.