Vets vs. Meds

[bj89]

I thought i'd get a discussion going on which program people think is more competitive. Some have argued that getting into vets is more competitive than meds, but i think this is debatable. From the admissions statistics (taken from http://www.ovc.uoguelph.ca/future/dvm/) of the class of 2014, there were only 407 applicants (WAY more females by the way) in total, 221 of which were interviewed for 114 spots. I think these odds are great compared to meds, where you are usually competing with a much larger applicant pool. Also, the mean MCAT for entry is <10 for all sections.

Maybe i'm missing some other extraneous factors. What does everyone think?

[tooty]

Med is clearly more competitive than vet judging from those stats.

[Rosie]

If you judge solely by the stats (GPA-somewhat depending on school, MCAT and number of applicants) then I agree that it does seem like Med would be more competitive then Vet.

 

There are different standards though for vet admissions when it comes to extracurriculars. One of the important factors is continuous experience with animals (both small and large) as well as volunteer work in veterinarian practices. Applicants are also required to get letters from 2 separate veterinarians I believe at OVC. So while getting into vet school may not be "much harder" than getting into med, it is still a difficult endeavour.

 

On that though professional schools, grad programs and second entry programs are getting more and more difficult to get into in general in this country.....

[mattg]

i posted this in a thread a while back... :

 

 

where does this myth come from? I've been hearing this for the past 10 years, and it's so not true...

 

Stats of the 2010 OVC application cycle:

407 total applicants

221 interviewed

114 admitted

 

= 1/4

 

and if you just consider domestic applicants:

 

267 total applicants

199 interviewed (almost 80% of applicants!!)

104 admitted (half of all interviewees)

 

= 1/2.5

 

much better than med school in Canada (or Ontario at least)... not to mention the med applicant pool is much more competitive than the vet applicant pool (i.e. the median MCAT of the admitted OVC applicant is 9 9 7 Q)

 

i'd take 1/2.5 over the med odds anyday!

 

lol nothing against the poster, but i've been hearing this rumour for years, and i don't know where it comes from

 

source: http://www.ovc.uoguelph.ca/future/dv...atsOVC2014.pdf

[bj89]

If you judge solely by the stats (GPA-somewhat depending on school, MCAT and number of applicants) then I agree that it does seem like Med would be more competitive then Vet.

 

There are different standards though for vet admissions when it comes to extracurriculars. One of the important factors is continuous experience with animals (both small and large) as well as volunteer work in veterinarian practices. Applicants are also required to get letters from 2 separate veterinarians I believe at OVC. So while getting into vet school may not be "much harder" than getting into med, it is still a difficult endeavour.

 

On that though professional schools, grad programs and second entry programs are getting more and more difficult to get into in general in this country.....

 

Yes, you are right in that vet-related EC's are much more important when applying to vet than medically related EC's when applying to meds. Which i think makes sense, cuz they want people who they know are comfortable handling/dealing with animals

[mattg]

There are different standards though for vet admissions when it comes to extracurriculars. One of the important factors is continuous experience with animals (both small and large) as well as volunteer work in veterinarian practices. Applicants are also required to get letters from 2 separate veterinarians I believe at OVC. So while getting into vet school may not be "much harder" than getting into med, it is still a difficult endeavour.

 

i would definitely say that having to get very high marks/mcat, while also gaining enough "experiences" (ranging from years of volunteering to research to whatever) is much harder than getting mediocre marks/mcat while doing some work in the field you are hoping to go into

[tooty]

There are different standards though for vet admissions when it comes to extracurriculars. One of the important factors is continuous experience with animals (both small and large) as well as volunteer work in veterinarian practices. Applicants are also required to get letters from 2 separate veterinarians I believe at OVC. So while getting into vet school may not be "much harder" than getting into med, it is still a difficult endeavour.

 

It's not harder period. It's not even close. Instead of volunteering anywhere, pre-vets have to volunteer at an animal shelter or a vet clinic. They're not doing more than the typical premed doing ECs, except they have much lower cutoffs and greater seats-to-applicants ratio. And LORs from vets would follow from these experiences, so they're killing two birds with one stone.

 

I agree that it's probably difficult though.

[Rosie]

It's not harder period. It's not even close. Instead of volunteering anywhere, pre-vets have to volunteer at an animal shelter or a vet clinic. They're not doing more than the typical premed doing ECs, except they have much lower cutoffs and greater seats-to-applicants ratio. And LORs from vets would follow from these experiences, so they're killing two birds with one stone.

 

I agree that it's probably difficult though.

 

Oh yea I agree that it's much harder for meds, I was just stating that there are other aspects of the vet application that we should also consider and look at to get a full idea of the application process.

[rmorelan]

I was under the impression that myth is because in the US it is more competitive to get into vets than meds. There overall med acceptance rate is about twice as high as there compared to Canada though so that is potentially big factor (?)

[ladybug]

just want to add an interesting point:

 

ontario vet applicants can only apply to one school in ontario (the OVC). they aren't eligible to apply to other schools in other provinces, and thus only have one shot at getting in, whereas med applicants have 6 schools in ontario alone to apply to and can apply out of province if they make those cut offs.

[mattg]

just want to add an interesting point:

 

ontario vet applicants can only apply to one school in ontario (the OVC). they aren't eligible to apply to other schools in other provinces, and thus only have one shot at getting in, whereas med applicants have 6 schools in ontario alone to apply to and can apply out of province if they make those cut offs.

 

but it isn't very likely that you will get into OOP med schools and not Ontario schools (although it definitely does happen)... if you're competitive for meds OOP, you're definitely going to be competitive IP... so while it does increase your chances a bit for meds, the disparity between getting into vet school as an Ontario student and getting into meds as an Ontario student is still pretty massive

[champ]

but it isn't very likely that you will get into OOP med schools and not Ontario schools (although it definitely does happen)... if you're competitive for meds OOP, you're definitely going to be competitive IP... so while it does increase your chances a bit for meds, the disparity between getting into vet school as an Ontario student and getting into meds as an Ontario student is still pretty massive

 

I agree with mattg's responses in this thread. Each profession is different but if you were to compare the stats they really speak for medicine being the harder profession to get into. hands down. One isnt better then the other, they are just different so theres no point to really compare them.

[3rdyearbiostudent]

This is a bad comparison - the fact is, a good chunk of people applying to vet school are resorting to this because of the fact they couldnt even get into med school in the first place. this does not apply to all the pre-vets but a good chunk.

[rmorelan]

This is a bad comparison - the fact is, a good chunk of people applying to vet school are resorting to this because of the fact they couldnt even get into med school in the first place. this does not apply to all the pre-vets but a good chunk.

 

I wonder how big that "chunk" is? Most people I know who applied to vets didn't really want medicine.

[champ]

This is a bad comparison - the fact is, a good chunk of people applying to vet school are resorting to this because of the fact they couldnt even get into med school in the first place. this does not apply to all the pre-vets but a good chunk.

 

Its not that easy to just switch around like that. You need to put in a fair amount of time volunteering at vet clinics in advance of your application. I cant think of many pre meds having that as an activity on their cv. So if they were prepared in advance they coudl surely switch if the need arose..

[hking03]

This is a bad comparison - the fact is, a good chunk of people applying to vet school are resorting to this because of the fact they couldnt even get into med school in the first place. this does not apply to all the pre-vets but a good chunk.

 

this guy is just full of great posts.

 

of all of the people i know that want to go into vet medicine they have never expressed (at least to me) a desire to go into medicine...

 

i'm sure some people do, but for the most part they are pretty different in terms of prep/ec's...

[apache]

i've never met one person in my life who wanted to do med or vet, and im from the praries so i've met a lot of people interested in being a vet and none of them had any interest in being a doctor.

 

you really need to stop putting medicine on an altar and realize a lot of people don't want to be a doctor.

 

in fact i went into medicine b/c i didn't want to work hard enough to get into clinical psych and honestly didn't really think i could get in (i have a friend from a social networking thing i go to who still won't cave and go for psychiatry even though he's been rejected 3 years in a row with a gpa that would get him into some med school easily, he's finally going to apply to med next year i think)

 

This is a bad comparison - the fact is, a good chunk of people applying to vet school are resorting to this because of the fact they couldnt even get into med school in the first place. this does not apply to all the pre-vets but a good chunk.

[Cantbreathe]

I would doubt that either veterinary medicine or clinical psychology is harder to get into than medical school.

 

even if there is a lower ratio of medical school applicants to actual matriculants than in the other two programs, the competitiveness/quality of a premed's application (academic achievement and curriculum vitae, etc) is probably higher than that of the average pre-vet or clinical psych student. uncompetitive applicants often get scared away from applying.

 

And I'm not putting medicine up on a pedestal. I'm not even that proud that I pursued a career in medicine.

[Fluffer]

Hey guys,

 

Just to weigh in here.... I think it's important to keep in mind that the programs are different. There are different requirements and expectations about prospective students, and how they are viewed as being competitive for med vs. vet vs. clin psych. Different strokes for different folks.

 

Not to monopolize the vet med thread for clin psych, but I was accepted to clin psych. I ended up turning down my acceptance, and I went back for a BSc, and am now in med school. When I applied, clinical psych was statistically slightly more competitive than getting into med (applicant success rate of 7.1% vs. 8.9% across Canada). Overall, the application experience between clin psych and med were about the same - same feelings of angst, questioning whether I am good enough, what is everyone else doing, etc.

 

Here's a run down:

 

1. GPA

Both programs require competitive GPA. As undergraduate psych students, we were told not to bother applying to clin psych without a 3.8/4.00+. Yes, the grading schemes varies between science and social science courses (biology is about an 86% = A; 91% for A+; psych 90% = A; 96% for A+) but GPA is about equal in importance.

 

2. Research

Research is king in clinical psych. Hands down. Keep in mind that clinical psych is a GRAD SCHOOL program that combines research and clinical training. Research is viewed as a bonus EC for med, but is a deal breaker in clinical psych. Clin Psych programs in Canada often require applicants to have a Honours degree. When I applied, I was one of 6 undergrad students (cGPA range: 3.93-3.99/4.00) who were interviewed for the same spot in clin psych lab. The person who got the position had 3 publications of which 2 were based on his research at Standford. heehee, needless to say I wasn't the one who got the spot!

 

3. Get funding

To get a position in clinical psych, 4th year undergrads where applying to NSERC/SSHRC/CIHR to secure Canada Graduate Scholarships for their Master's (should they get in in the next year). That requires designing a full research program by themselves, having excellent GPAs, and some ECs (as the application require a paragraph or so on ECs). Few programs require undergrads to have this level of aggressiveness/tenacity for students to get a spot!

4. ECs

No doubt - med wins. Research drives clin psych, and having a 'more' well rounded student is highly desirable in med (and I imagine in vet med too).

 

5.GRE vs. MCAT

In my opinion, MCAT was far harder than GRE based on the volume of information that you have to learn and process. The GRE was more straight forward - yes you do need to be in the 85 percentile for verbal at least for clin psych, but you can get away with a 70 percentile in mathematics. MCAT is really about hitting that safe score 10/10/10 or 11/11/11 or higher, depending on where you apply to.

 

Thanks for letting me ramble on. I guess I don't know how productive it is to say one program is harder to get into or better... In the end it's all about patient care regardless of what field you approach from. Quite a few doctors work with clinical psychologists in hospitals, primary care networks, and tertiary care, and we have a lot of respect for their expertise. Vet med's the same. I look at my colleagues from the Vet side of things as collaborators. Who knows where we'd be during SARS and H1N1 without their contributions, and knowledge, no?

[apache]

no, something being competitive doesn't put it on a pedestal, but saying vets are doctor wannabes who couldn't hack it is silly

 

see the above post for more details... i don't really wanna debate this, lol, i just got irritated at the other dude, it's like listening to the seinfeld episode about dentists and anti-dentites, except it's not really as funny... more on the obnoxious side

 

cheers

 

I would doubt that either veterinary medicine or clinical psychology is harder to get into than medical school.

 

even if there is a lower ratio of medical school applicants to actual matriculants than in the other two programs, the competitiveness/quality of a premed's application (academic achievement and curriculum vitae, etc) is probably higher than that of the average pre-vet or clinical psych student. uncompetitive applicants often get scared away from applying.

 

And I'm not putting medicine up on a pedestal. I'm not even that proud that I pursued a career in medicine.

[MedDream]

Hey All,

 

I go to Guelph so I'm pretty familiar with the whole process of getting into vet school, as I have a number of friends who are going for vet right now. Firstly, the people I know who are going for vet are LIVID when they hear their peers saying they would do either vet or med. Personally, I don't really get it... they are very different professions. But anyways, the requirements for vets versus meds are very different. When you apply to the OVC your application is weighted 40% ECs and 60% grades. They have very specific prereqs (stats, biochem, etc.). The entering average (it's based on average, not the OMSAS scale) is 88% I believe- still very high. All the students I know who are "pre-vet" work very hard and honestly I hang around more with them then the other "pre-meds" I know because a lot of pre-meds just annoying the sh*t out of me.

[bj89]

Hey All,

 

I go to Guelph so I'm pretty familiar with the whole process of getting into vet school, as I have a number of friends who are going for vet right now. Firstly, the people I know who are going for vet are LIVID when they hear their peers saying they would do either vet or med. Personally, I don't really get it... they are very different professions. But anyways, the requirements for vets versus meds are very different. When you apply to the OVC your application is weighted 40% ECs and 60% grades. They have very specific prereqs (stats, biochem, etc.). The entering average (it's based on average, not the OMSAS scale) is 88% I believe- still very high. All the students I know who are "pre-vet" work very hard and honestly I hang around more with them then the other "pre-meds" I know because a lot of pre-meds just annoying the sh*t out of me.

 

I think pre vets are cooler than pre meds in general cause pre vets are passionate about animals and thus passionate about vet medicine. They therefore have avid lives outisde of school. Not all pre meds are passionate about medicine, and not all have lives outside of school

[Bec]

How many different organisms does a med student need to know everything about?

One. The human being.

 

How many different organisms does a vet student need to know everything about?

Yeah.

[hking03]

How many different organisms does a med student need to know everything about?

One. The human being.

 

How many different organisms does a vet student need to know everything about?

Yeah.

 

Are you saying that vet students need to know more than med students?

[Bec]

Are you saying that vet students need to know more than med students?

 

Think about it. Even if a veterinarian treats only cats and dogs on a regular daily basis, you have to consider that there are countless breeds of cats and dogs, all with specific sensitivities, disease/parasite risks, and nutritional requirements.

 

Think also in terms of diagnostics. When something hurts, you can tell the doctor what's wrong. When an animal is in pain, it may be lethargic, have a decreased appetite, show signs of nausea, or be more vocal than usual - all symptoms of many conditions.

 

Veterinarians are also surgeons and dentists for animals. Vets perform most all surgeries and dental procedures required with the exception that severe cases are sent to specialists.

 

Medical doctors are obviously also very knowledgeable; all I'm saying is that it is uncommon that veterinarians receive the respect they deserve, if any at all.