Jump to content
Premed 101 Forums

Grad school or not? A personal perspective.


Recommended Posts

Hi everyone,

 

Long time lurker here, and I have been very appreciative of everyone's comments / suggestions over the years. While I haven't been reading the forum as regularly, I keep reading about people wondering about whether or not to go to grad school before med school and thought I would put in my 2 cents. Why? Mainly, because I read about people who 'want' to go to grad school, without any prior consideration of what it might entail, which is generally a combination for disaster.

 

But first, a little background. Typical, *VERY AVERAGE* student (3.5GPA, 31S MCAT, good ECs etc). Spent many undergrad summers and terms doing research. Started PhD, then applied and got into MD/PhD program. And now on with the story.

 

Pros for Grad School

 

1. Grad school is great. You will learn much more about yourself than you might have thought. You'll meet great people (some not so great people), but in the end, you'll come out with the feeling that you have accomplished something! Grad school also teaches some serious problem solving skills (that are ACTUALLY applicable to REAL LIFE!). You will really look at problems in the world differently. You'll appreciate all aspects of the problem, you will become more objective, and try to remove bias in your decision making. After all, all great scientists do this. Plus, think of how this will help you in your future medical careers? I've been told by a number of MSc/MDs and MD/PhDs that lessons in grad school continually help them in their day to day medical practices.

 

2. You get paid to go to school! And in many cases, there are funds / scholarships for MD/PhD students. CIHR, different provincial granting agencies. You might actually go through grad school and med school without accumulating debt!

 

3. You genuinely have a passion for science. Science is so cool. We know so little about our world, yet go around everyday as if nothing matters. Discoveries are made by grad students working in labs around the world. Enough said.

 

Cons for Grad School

 

1. You have a time commitment. Seriously. Grad school in Canada (unless you are in a course based masters), does not mean that you will graduate *guaranteed* in 2 years (for a MSc). I have no idea where this 'idea' gets perpetrated, but in *Basic Sciences*, you are looking at between 2 to 3 years. Writing up / defending alone will take you 3-4 months if you are fast and your supervisor doesn't edit like crazy. For a PhD, expect at least 5 years when all is said and done. Yah yah, there ARE people who finish in 2 years for a MSc and 4 years for a PhD, but these cases are NOT COMMON (and usually not in basic sciences). For perspective, the last person I knew who finished a PhD in 4 years had a first author Nature paper.

 

1b. In regards to time. Assuming you finish a 4 year undergrad, then take 5 years for a PhD, then 4 years med school, than 3-5 years residency (what about fellowships?), you'll be 34-36 years old by the time you're working on your own (31-33 if you do a MSc). That is a LONG FLIPPIN' TIME. I mean, there are ways to cut corners (like 3 year med school at UC and Mc), but on average, that is what to expect. CONSIDER THIS CAREFULLY. I have friends of mine who when I was in undergrad were getting married, and now they're popping out babies. So if these things are important to you, think about the fact that you won't exactly be Doogie Howser when you're all done.

 

2. You cannot deal with failure. My former supervisor told me that scientists live for the 1%. In other words, we fail 99% of the time, but that 1% success is the one that drives us. Especially in basic sciences, you will fail. Experiments may not work for months. Your project might fail or get scooped (happens a lot more often than you hear about). You may feel pretty crappy about life (which can be amplified by a bad supervisor, see below). So if you can't deal with the fact that things might just not work, for reasons out of your control, SERIOUSLY consider if grad school is the best option for you.

 

3. You think grad school is a good way to 'kill time' before you get accepted into med school. I cannot believe how many times I have heard that from a grad student's mouth. In basic sciences, you will have hard weeks and you will have easy weeks. Some easy weeks mean you spend 30-40hours in the lab, some hard weeks mean you spend 60+ hours in the lab. I think a good estimate is about 50hrs when you consider reading / course work outside of actual lab time. Expect to spend at least 6 days a week in the lab (even if it is just for a few hours on the weekend to prep for the week). No, this doesn't mean you spend EVERY weekend in the lab, or every night, but don't show up expecting to put in 40 hrs a week of lackluster effort and getting out in 3 years. Maybe during your first 6 months, sure, but after that, the time you spend in the lab (i.e. productivity) is a direct correlation with how fast you get out.

 

Some advice

 

1. Don't think grad school is a 'backup' and 'time kill' until you get into med school because there are a helluva lot easier ways to kill time than grad school (5th year undergrad, volunteering, traveling).

 

2. Not all supervisors are nice. Most are, assuming you a willing and open minded student (after all, they are there to mentor you). So don't pick a supervisor all willy nilly and expect them to work. I have seen many people drop out or transfer from PhDs to MScs because they simply didn't get along with their supervisor. Wasn't because they were 'dumb' and couldn't handle it, but how you and your supervisor interact will determine whether or not you cry yourself to sleep at night. TALK TO THE GRAD STUDENTS IN THE LAB YOU WANT TO JOIN. They are usually really open and honest about whether the person is a whack or a great mentor. And for the love of God, DO NOT SHOW UP ON THE FIRST DAY OF GRAD SCHOOL WITHOUT PERSONALLY INTERVIEWING YOUR SUPERVISOR!!!!! I still see this happening in my department and while I have no solid facts, I can qualitatively tell you that these people are more likely to quit / drop out of grad school.

 

3. Be open with your supervisor. Tell them that you want to go to med school BEFORE you join the lab. After all, you WILL need a reference from them. And after you've started? Tell them that you might have to write the MCAT. Or that there are some volunteer opportunities that come up. You'd be surprised at how many supervisors are understanding of that, and will give you a week or 2 before the MCAT or let you sneak out here and there to volunteer at a science fair or something. Hiding things means you might get caught, and that is never a good thing. They may be scientists first, but they are also mentors. They know that you'll only be with them temporarily, and in many cases, grad school is a stepping stone to something else. If they are understanding of your goals, than you have could have a very powerful 'batter' on your team.

 

SO... in conclusion... CONSIDER YOUR OPTIONS CAREFULLY. I'm really not trying to discourage anyone, but rather I'm trying to be a realist about the what actually happens. I know that the people who read this forum are smart people with the drive and determination needed to get into med school. But smart people can make good decisions just as easily as they can make bad decisions.

 

Grad school can be a great decision (best one you'll ever make in my opinion), but for some people (who don't do their background work), grad school can be the worst decision they'll ever make. Grad school is a great ride and fantastic journey. For me, I have never regretted going to grad school as it has definitely changed my attitudes towards academic sciences and medicine. It gave me the chance to 'grow up' and see the world from a different perspective, one that I might not necessarily get from only going to med school.

 

After all, we can't all be Doogie Howsers.

 

Thanks for reading. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fantastic post! This should definitely be made a sticky thread....

 

One point I would like to add/emphasize is that grad school is NOT in itself a career move like professional schools. This is especially true with pursing a PhD (most people falsely assume that a PhD will get them a professorship....reality is that less than 5% of PhDs will land professorships). Not to mention that the average age of assistant professorships is now approaching 40 years of age (that means you've been a university trainee for 20 years from undergrad to grad to postdoc before becoming a professor).

 

The number of PhDs in the life sciences who change careers down the road (after several years of postdoc, RA, industry, consulting or whatnot) is astonishing. You really really have to make sure your reasons for pursuing a PhD are well grounded.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
  • 1 month later...
It is a great post..really informative...thank you

 

I was just wondering whether anyone has tried to do a second undergrad degree along with an MSc ? Is it possible at all ? Also are all MSc program 2 year long are ther any that can be done in 1 or 1.5 yrs ?

 

One year master's degrees do exist, but they are usually course-based and you usually don't get guaranteed funding for them. I think there are some 1-year master's of public health degrees out there and maybe a few threads about them on here. Doing a second undergrad along with a master's is pretty unlikely, though. Your department probably won't even let you try. If you're doing a thesis-based master's, they'll expect you to spend as much time as possible in the lab and not taking extra classes that you don't need for your master's. Some people have done 2-year master's degrees in 1.5 years, but it usually involves a magical combination of having no life outside of school, not having any coursework (either because the school doesn't require it or you did grad courses in undergrad), and getting lucky enough to not have any problems with your research. It's much more common to need extra time than to finish early. The only people I've known who finished early were serious undergrad research keeners who took grad classes their senior year and had a project that was a continuation of something they had already spent a couple of years working on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

I don't know if you have to disclose that you left your PhD. It may even be something you could bring up in an interview. You could talk about how respect and trust are a two way street and you just weren't getting any in return. I think it would be understandable... I work on a floor with three other labs. Two PhD students have dropped out since I have been there. I know of two others that have left in the larger department. One of them defended a second masters as a way to shorten it and peace out.

 

Cranky old supervisors suck! We have an old crank from Harvard in our department that always gives me crap. His lab is failing now though. Karma.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know if you have to disclose that you left your PhD. It may even be something you could bring up in an interview. You could talk about how respect and trust are a two way street and you just weren't getting any in return. I think it would be understandable... I work on a floor with three other labs. Two PhD students have dropped out since I have been there. I know of two others that have left in the larger department. One of them defended a second masters as a way to shorten it and peace out.

 

Cranky old supervisors suck! We have an old crank from Harvard in our department that always gives me crap. His lab is failing now though. Karma.

 

I should have just left after the masters. Never would have ended up in this mess...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dropped out of my PhD after the first year and a half, had time to do my 2 courses, take the written exam, and spend half a year looking for a project that interested me. I never really did and realized that I didn't want to do research in comp science. My supervisor was great during that time, leaving me time to reflect first so I would be sure about my decision. Obviously in my case everybody had their own projects that were all connected to my supervisor's domains.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dropped out of my PhD after the first year and a half, had time to do my 2 courses, take the written exam, and spend half a year looking for a project that interested me. I never really did and realized that I didn't want to do research in comp science. My supervisor was great during that time, leaving me time to reflect first so I would be sure about my decision. Obviously in my case everybody had their own projects that were all connected to my supervisor's domains.

 

Did your supervisor write a letter of recommendation for you? Also, did leaving the PhD come up in your application/interview?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks John ;)

 

Before I decided to go for med, I intended to go take a grad program in computer security at Concordia and my supervisor had agreed to write me a letter. Had I needed one for med, he would have gladly written me one too because even though the 2 fields are not related, he'd supervised me for 4 years (PhD + masters).

 

As for not finishing, John is right that it didn't come up, but it does show on my record as withdrawn. I also believe that if it had come up I would have been able to give very good reasons for doing so. Better to cut short something you're not interested in when you realize you have a new passion no?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Out of topic:

 

@Michelle: Do you think the stars had something to do with your acceptance in medicine?

 

Thanks John ;)

 

Before I decided to go for med, I intended to go take a grad program in computer security at Concordia and my supervisor had agreed to write me a letter. Had I needed one for med, he would have gladly written me one too because even though the 2 fields are not related, he'd supervised me for 4 years (PhD + masters).

 

As for not finishing, John is right that it didn't come up, but it does show on my record as withdrawn. I also believe that if it had come up I would have been able to give very good reasons for doing so. Better to cut short something you're not interested in when you realize you have a new passion no?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Out of topic:

 

@Michelle: Do you think the stars had something to do with your acceptance in medicine?

 

The stars?? No. I think I had to experience other things first to learn enough about myself to really know what I want with life. I enjoyed every minute of my swim career but if it meant it was my main focus and school was just something fun on the side then so be it. I'm older, but wiser now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The stars?? No. I think I had to experience other things first to learn enough about myself to really know what I want with life. I enjoyed every minute of my swim career but if it meant it was my main focus and school was just something fun on the side then so be it. I'm older, but wiser now.

 

I said starts because I thought you told me you were doing your PhD in Astronomy :P?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Astronomy? Not me, that's Astrogirl I believe? :)

 

Yep, that's me. Or was me, because I graduated! And I don't think that in my case the stars had anything to do with it, because the stars I was studying were too busy spending all their time pulsating and getting ready to explode to do anything useful like control my destiny. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

Great grad school thread!

 

I started grad school myself last year in Urban Planning (for a Masters in Environmental Science).

 

The major downside I found was (contrary to the experience of others) there was a ton of downtime in my degree due to the lack of labwork. This was a major downer at first, but eventually I learned to cope, picked a more interesting thesis topic and took on some new activities. The huge upside of this was a great time of time to reflect and plan ahead. Ironically, if I was in a 2-year course based masters as most other schools offer for my degree, I may have been so busy that I would not have voluntarily chosen to enter into medicine.

 

Since deciding to go into med, I plan to spend the next year, my final year first finishing the thesis, taking a full year of org (which I never got in undergrad) and getting some medical experience as I have yet to volunteer in a hospital!

 

Thus, for all those reading this thread, keep in mind that depending on the program, school and supervisor there is a spectrum of ways that a grad degree can play out!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...
  • 2 months later...

From my own story:

 

Completed a 4 year Bachelors of Science

Finished a 2 years Masters of Science

Currently on a gap year now that I finished my MSc (and am employed at a hospital doing research)

 

2 interviews this cycle (Mac and UofT)

 

--

 

I really feel my MSc immensely helped me to score two interviews this cycle....I would have had NOTHING to put in the research category and I made so many connections and had so many unique opportunities. To anyone thinking of doing grad studies, I highly recommend it, especially if you luck out like me and go into a field with a lot of opportunities for collaboration and travel (medical imaging).

 

From my grad studies:

 

- three SOLID reference letters

- papers

- conferences

- podium presentations

- clinical placements

- physician shadowing

- grants

- scholarships

- position on grad student council

- professional title/email address/physical address to put on emails, documents, etc.

- use of office supplies I didn't have (free postage, label maker, colour printer, scanner, fax, etc.) to complete my application [yes I am poor lol so this was great]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...