Jump to content
Premed 101 Forums

Thinking About a Second Undergraduate Degree?


Recommended Posts

Unfortunately if medical schools want full-time years of study, then they want full-time years of study. They don't care if you are working two jobs, have elderly parents to take care of, etc., they want to see full-time studies.

 

People in your situation either save up before going back to do a second degree, take out loans to support them during their second degree, work part-time and go to school full-time during their degree, have a spouse that can support them while they are in school, or, in a few cases, work full-time and go to school full-time (yes, these people are amazing and tend to have flexible programs and/or flexible working hours). Those who do both work and school full-time tend to drop their other commitments, but work is most definitely an EC!

 

Good luck.

 

Just because of the importance of the decision you're going to have to consider AJ, I wanted to say that I fully agree with NutritionRunner's post.

 

Unless you want to put all of your eggs in one basket and apply to Queen's (which isn't a great strategy as the odds of getting accepted to just one school are quite low) you will need to return to school full-time.

 

Another potential pitfall to watch out for is to make sure you do not repeat any courses. Furthermore, you should have a full courseload NOT counting summer (many schools don't count spring/summer courses).

 

One thing you might consider is to take an MCAT prep course and write the MCAT before deciding to go back to school full-time. If you are capable of scoring well on the MCAT then your chance of getting into med school will improve significantly. It's probably better to do this than to do two or three years more undergrad and then realize that you're not able to score well.

 

Also, congrats on the 4.0 over the 3 courses you took!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi all,

 

Thanks for the responses. I wrote the MCAT during my final year of my first degree with a balanced score of 30. The reason I am less focused on the MCAT is that they are coming out with the new format in 2015. Considering I'd be applying for entrance in 2016, I would probably end up writing the new MCAT as well.

 

Almost all schools that I've researched require fulltime September to April, its how they define fulltime that differs. The 3 courses I already took were over the 1st half of summer and were simply an opportunity to ease myself in slowly. September registration starts mid July, hence me trying to understand the FT requirements now prior to registering.

 

I've heard from a Med student at UofT that they allow you to submit less than a FT course-load providing you have proof of a 30+hr work week throughout your degree and can argue your case successfully. I'll be e-mail their admissions office to confirm though.

 

Its not my plan to put all my eggs in one basket, but at the same time, not working is not an option for me unfortunately as I'm doing this completely on my own. My plan is to register for 4 courses/semester, that covers Queens, and Ottawa (top choices) and there are several other schools that are options as well.

 

I was just curious if anyone else had had a similar situation.

 

Thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Hello Everyone,

 

I have been working for the past year and applied to complete a second degree. I am interested in using that to apply to UWO but I came across this on the website FAQ:

 

Students who already have one undergraduate degree and are working towards, or have recently completed, a second degree are not eligible to apply before the final year of their most recent program, which must be four-year degree from a recognized university. Three out of 5 full or equivalent courses taken in each of the upper years of the second degree program must be senior-level courses. GPA consideration is based on the two best years of the second degree program only. Applicants who receive a conditional offer of admission must complete all second degree program requirements prior to registration in the M.D. program. (Approved by the Medicine Admissions Committee, May 2008)

 

Does that now mean I won't be eligible to apply unless I finish the degree in a span of 4 years? I had intended to apply after 1 year in an aim for conditional acceptance and re-apply after 2, when I finished the program. The program I enrolled in is Western's BMOS program, where I am now having doubts about my ability to graduate with an Honours degree. Could someone please shed light on this? I would greatly appreciate it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
  • 2 months later...

From reading the forum and doing a bit of research, that statement is correct. Being your second degree, UWO wants you to be enrolled in a 3 or 4 year bachelor degree. This would be shortened to 2 to 3 years given the fact that many of the courses that you had already taken in your FIRST degree would count towards your second degree, thus shortening the period of your 2nd degree.

 

Anyone can correct me if I am mistaken?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey! To those of you who are doing a second undergrad or have done one, or are considering one, were you concerned about the extra debt it would create? I'm graduating my first undergrad this april owing a 25,000$ on a LOC which is a lot but not unheard of for a degree. If I do another degree I estimate that will take me to about 40,000$ (I have no support from my parents). Is this a ridiculous amount of debt to take on for undergrad? I realize if I get into med school it will all be worth it but what if I don't:|

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey! To those of you who are doing a second undergrad or have done one, or are considering one, were you concerned about the extra debt it would create? I'm graduating my first undergrad this april owing a 25,000$ on a LOC which is a lot but not unheard of for a degree. If I do another degree I estimate that will take me to about 40,000$ (I have no support from my parents). Is this a ridiculous amount of debt to take on for undergrad? I realize if I get into med school it will all be worth it but what if I don't:|

 

Hi lizasaurusrex,

 

I'm in a similar position. While my marks are average to competitive depending on the med school, I do not have science pre-reqs. I am based in Ottawa but have lived in Northern Ontario and NOSM is my first choice. I am hoping I will get in this year (who isn't) but in order to be pragmatic I have to start thinking of a backup plan.

 

Like you, a second degree (or in my case, third) will probably involve taking on more debt, and my answer is YES, debt is worth it, as long as the degree leads to something specific, something that has a decent career outlook when you're finished, and something that could possibly help if you eventually get into med. That way, the debt load won't lead to nothing.

 

For instance, I'm considering dietetics, so I'm thinking of doing some first year sciences (bio, chem) and I want to make sure they can transfer eventually to a nutrition program recognized by the Dietitians of Canada. If I go this route, I'm:

 

A) Helping my goal of getting into med by getting science prereqs,

B)working toward a 'Plan B' if I am never admitted to medicine and

C)Hopefully building some useful knowledge that will help if I am admitted to medicine one day in the future.

 

Hope this helps.

 

RR

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just wanted a bit of advice from those of you who have completed a second UG degree or are in the process of doing so. I currently am in the process of completing my first UG in an BSc program, and am thinking of applying to a second degree in order to improve my GPA and overall chances of getting into med. The program I was looking into was a Bachelor of Arts degree, my question is, would med schools care if the second degree is not a science degree, or should I continue to pursue the BA (since it's one I'm interested in)??

 

Any advice would be helpful!! Thanks! :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey! To those of you who are doing a second undergrad or have done one, or are considering one, were you concerned about the extra debt it would create? I'm graduating my first undergrad this april owing a 25,000$ on a LOC which is a lot but not unheard of for a degree. If I do another degree I estimate that will take me to about 40,000$ (I have no support from my parents). Is this a ridiculous amount of debt to take on for undergrad? I realize if I get into med school it will all be worth it but what if I don't:|

 

I worked for several years to save up enough money to go back to school. I was lucky that my first degree was entirely financed through scholarships, so I didn't take on any debt. For my second degree, I've also been lucky enough to win a couple of scholarships, and that, combined with my savings, has paid for my second degree.

 

I also chose to pursue a degree that would provide me with a satisfying career at the end of it (in my case, applied human nutrition, so that I can become a registered dietitian).

 

This past semester I accumulated a bit of debt, but that's only because I suffered a concussion, so have been unable to work since September, and have had to pay for physiotherapy on top of it (I'm only reimbursed for 80% of the physio costs).

 

My approach wouldn't work for everyone, but it is what I did (as I'm not eligible for OSAP or other forms of student assistance because my husband makes "too much" money).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
Hi all,

 

Thanks for the responses. I wrote the MCAT during my final year of my first degree with a balanced score of 30. The reason I am less focused on the MCAT is that they are coming out with the new format in 2015. Considering I'd be applying for entrance in 2016, I would probably end up writing the new MCAT as well.

 

Almost all schools that I've researched require fulltime September to April, its how they define fulltime that differs. The 3 courses I already took were over the 1st half of summer and were simply an opportunity to ease myself in slowly. September registration starts mid July, hence me trying to understand the FT requirements now prior to registering.

 

I've heard from a Med student at UofT that they allow you to submit less than a FT course-load providing you have proof of a 30+hr work week throughout your degree and can argue your case successfully. I'll be e-mail their admissions office to confirm though.

 

Its not my plan to put all my eggs in one basket, but at the same time, not working is not an option for me unfortunately as I'm doing this completely on my own. My plan is to register for 4 courses/semester, that covers Queens, and Ottawa (top choices) and there are several other schools that are options as well.

 

I was just curious if anyone else had had a similar situation.

 

Thanks!

 

 

I'm thinking of doing the same! I also called UofT and got a similar response about the full-time work part-time study combination. I'm hoping to take a few classes this summer to ease into it and then really start in the fall. How are things going for you thus far?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

Just wondering...

Do medical schools consider (and count) courses taken at college? For instance..if a student were to do the accelerated collab nursing degree program offered at Humber/Centennial/Seneca with NB/Ryerson/York? They're usually 2 yrs in length and you graduate with a bachelors of nursing degree...not a diploma. Hoping someone can shed light on this!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just wondering...

Do medical schools consider (and count) courses taken at college? For instance..if a student were to do the accelerated collab nursing degree program offered at Humber/Centennial/Seneca with NB/Ryerson/York? They're usually 2 yrs in length and you graduate with a bachelors of nursing degree...not a diploma. Hoping someone can shed light on this!

 

I'm assuming those courses would count. I think you should email a few schools just to get an idea.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just wondering...

Do medical schools consider (and count) courses taken at college? For instance..if a student were to do the accelerated collab nursing degree program offered at Humber/Centennial/Seneca with NB/Ryerson/York? They're usually 2 yrs in length and you graduate with a bachelors of nursing degree...not a diploma. Hoping someone can shed light on this!

 

If you get a degree, the marks count. If you don't, they don't. Where you take the program doesn't matter, it's the credential you get afterwards. If you did the accelerated nursing degree program, its marks would be considered by medical schools.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OMSAS does not consider college level coursework in its GPA calculations. That is a gray area with the connections to universities, check with OMSAS.

 

My understanding is that as long as those courses count towards the degree, it's OMSAS-eligible. That's the way my second degree worked - all the courses taken at the college still counted, because they were used towards a degree from a degree-granting institution.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The collab programs do lead to a university degree...they're granted by universities, and you end up with a BscN or BofN once the degree is completed. The only thing is, they're done at a college....so does that make them "college courses" or "university courses". It is a grey area..do you think American med schools differentiate?

 

Ralk - hope you don't mind me asking, but was your second degree a 4yr one, or a 2 yr one?

 

My understanding is that as long as those courses count towards the degree, it's OMSAS-eligible. That's the way my second degree worked - all the courses taken at the college still counted, because they were used towards a degree from a degree-granting institution.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The collab programs do lead to a university degree...they're granted by universities, and you end up with a BscN or BofN once the degree is completed. The only thing is, they're done at a college....so does that make them "college courses" or "university courses". It is a grey area..do you think American med schools differentiate?

 

Ralk - hope you don't mind me asking, but was your second degree a 4yr one, or a 2 yr one?

 

Mine was a three-year degree. I have no idea how American schools would judge a combined college/university program, though I do know Canadian schools don't seem to differentiate.

 

Again, most of my classes were taken at the college, not the university, but all counted as university credits. My transcript did come from the university, however, and all my courses had a university class code. If the program explicitly ends with a degree, the classes you take should have a university course code and be counted as university credits - I guess that would be the main thing to confirm before starting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

I know a few people now who did their 1st undergraduate degree in Biomed and then their second in Psychology. They definitely did better but what can you do with that if you don't get into medical school? My advice to you is to do something that will lead to a career and that you enjoy. Example: dietician, genetic counselor, physician assistant and nursing which you mentioned. Don't just take something to boost your grades because those people I know that did a 2nd degree still aren't in medical school.

I wish I would've done that but now I'm in an MSc that won't lead to much for me, I may have to redo all my education, who knows. Just think about it first.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am looking into applying into a second UG degree and for those who have completed or are in the process of completing their second UG, what was your first UG in and what did you take as your second UG?

 

My first degree was a BA in English and i'm starting a HBSc in Biology this fall:p

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Melly, did you pursue a MSc for the sole purpose of enhancing your med school application or do you actually enjoy what you're learning? Is it a professional degree? Regardless, don't lose hope...people with MSc go on to do great things.

 

 

I know a few people now who did their 1st undergraduate degree in Biomed and then their second in Psychology. They definitely did better but what can you do with that if you don't get into medical school? My advice to you is to do something that will lead to a career and that you enjoy. Example: dietician, genetic counselor, physician assistant and nursing which you mentioned. Don't just take something to boost your grades because those people I know that did a 2nd degree still aren't in medical school.

I wish I would've done that but now I'm in an MSc that won't lead to much for me, I may have to redo all my education, who knows. Just think about it first.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
I know a few people now who did their 1st undergraduate degree in Biomed and then their second in Psychology. ... Don't just take something to boost your grades because those people I know that did a 2nd degree still aren't in medical school.

 

Melly731, that is a scary anecdote. You have several friends who did get good grades in their 2nd UG degrees ...and yet did not end up going? Wow

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know a few people now who did their 1st undergraduate degree in Biomed and then their second in Psychology. They definitely did better but what can you do with that if you don't get into medical school? My advice to you is to do something that will lead to a career and that you enjoy. Example: dietician, genetic counselor, physician assistant and nursing which you mentioned. Don't just take something to boost your grades because those people I know that did a 2nd degree still aren't in medical school.

I wish I would've done that but now I'm in an MSc that won't lead to much for me, I may have to redo all my education, who knows. Just think about it first.

 

Melly731, that is a scary anecdote. You have several friends who did get good grades in their 2nd UG degrees ...and yet did not end up going? Wow

 

Well, you definitely have to go in with your eyes wide open. There's a statistically high chance of not being admitted, even with academic success. Be it in a first or second degree.

 

I wouldn't advise pursuing a second degree at all unless you plan on building your application and applying for 3-5 years. You also need to be proactive and make sure you're getting feedback and working on your short-comings, which may not be academic at all.

 

I don't know the situation of the people Melly described, but if they're getting interviews, it likely has nothing to do with academics. If they're not getting interviews, then there's a variety of things that could be going wrong that aren't academic (i.e. MCAT score, institutions being applied to, references, etc).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

In the last week, I've finished my second undergrad degree and have been accepted to medicine. I constantly see people posting both here and in the general forum about whether doing a second degree is the right option, and there really aren't any stickies or any other resources addressing it. I thought posting my experiences might help others down the road.

 

Doing a second undergraduate degree is not a great way to apply to medicine. If you are an applicant who has a GPA that is almost competitive (or better), a second degree is a waste of time. A graduate degree is a much better option because it not only improves your chances of getting into medicine, but it might improve your chances of landing competitive residencies later on.

 

However, if you are an applicant with an uncompetitive GPA in your first degree, a second degree may be your only option. For instance, my GPA through my first four years was a 2.1 - not only was I ineligible at all Canadian (and international for that matter) medical schools, I would not be accepted at any graduate program. To pursue medicine, it was necessary to do a second degree.

 

Doing a second degree to enter medicine is extremely difficult. There is much less room for error than in a first undergrad degree (a bad semester can ruin everything). You will be the odd person out in classes - you'll be the sixth-year student in a first-year class. You will be joining clubs with 17 year-olds. Your friends will find success in their pursuits and you will feel left behind. If you're in a relationship, it will suffer. You will probably enter into even more debt. And the worst part is that during the application process, medical schools can (and will) judge you based on your past mistakes rather than on more recent successes. The application process can be both capricious and arbitrary - even if you get a 4.0 in your second degree, kill the MCAT, and have amazing extracurriculars you may still never get in.

 

Be Honest and Take Time

 

If you are considering a second undergraduate degree, begin by being brutally honest with yourself. You should first consider where you went wrong. If you did not do well in your first undergrad because you had a physical or mental health issue, has it been completely resolved? Do not begin a second undergraduate degree if not. Take time off and get well - or at least take that time and learn ways to succeed despite the challenges you face before trying again.

 

Did you not do well in your first undergrad because you weren't motivated to succeed? If so, are you really motivated now? Someone PM'ed me saying they had just finished their first undergraduate degree and had done very poorly, but within the first week after finals they had suddenly become motivated to succeed. This is highly unlikely. They might suddenly realize they have graduated and now have to face the real world, but this feeling is not the same as being motivated to succeed. Probably within a month of re-entering a university program this person would lose motivation again. Again, my advice is to take time off of school. Take a minimum of two years and try out different jobs, volunteer, travel, make new friends, live in a different city (or country), just do something different. Time has a way of granting increased clarity - maybe with time you will discover your "motivation" for medicine was simply your perception of what others wanted you to do (which appears to be very common). Or maybe you will discover an innate desire to become a physician.

 

Maybe you didn't do well in your first undergrad because the program was too hard. This is a tricky one. There are a number of reasons for a program being too difficult - maybe it's something you don't enjoy, maybe you haven't adopted the right learning styles for the material you're being taught, maybe you work best in teams and your program is brutally individualistic, or maybe (and this is highly unlikely) your program really is just unfairly difficult. Again - be honest with yourself. One of my friends once asked me about doing a second undergrad to get into medicine, saying that they did poorly in life sciences because they hated it. My first question: "If life sciences was too hard because you don't like the material, how are you going to find medical school?" Another one of my friends was considering a second degree in life sciences after doing three years of a business program - she didn't do very well in her business major but said she hated it. On the other hand, she LOVED her life science electives and had nearly straight A+'es in them. A second degree for her was a no-brainer.

 

You may also have done poorly because you feel that you are not smart enough to succeed. This is VERY rare. I only mention it because I have seen one case of someone who was doing everything right but just couldn't crack 80's. This person loved the material, was working extremely hard, had very good study habits, was very motivated, and found good balance and had a great support network. If this is legitimately your situation, I would question whether medical school would be a good option. I'll just leave it at that, but honestly, this situation is very rare and if you think you fit into this category, consider first if you have actually done everything possible to succeed.

 

If you are still set on a second degree, you need to think about the answer to this question: Why do you want to be a doctor and not a worker in an allied health field? Again: you need to be honest. If your first answer is "because I enjoy helping people," I would reply with, "do nurses help people? Do police officers help people?" and so forth. Write out a list of why you want to go into medicine and figure out if that list is exclusive to being a physician. If it turns out you'd be equally (or more) happy being a nurse or an EMT - do that instead. If, after working in that field, you decide you'd like to apply to medicine (or do a second degree) at a later point you still can - and your application now has some very relevant work experience on it.

 

I don't mention all of this above to discourage you. I only mention it because getting into medicine through the second degree route is very difficult. If you are realistic, in a good place health-wise, motivated, had some proven academic success, and are certain that medicine is the right career, then you have a decent chance of success.

 

Most importantly, remember that there is absolutely no rush to get into medicine. We are always pushed to get ahead and succeed. This works great for some people but not for everyone: some of us need more time to find our niche. Life is a marathon, not a sprint - take some time to sort everything out, it will be worth it in the end.

 

The Practical Side

 

For those of you still reading, I'll get into the more practical side of things. Your primary consideration should be where and in which field to do a second degree. Consult the sticky at the top of this page regarding second degree policies at schools. Be VERY CONSCIOUS of what each school looks for in terms of a second degree - for instance, Western has very strict requirements for that degree. Take the time to review everything before selecting courses within a program (if you aren't paying attention you can very easily kill your eligibility at Western). Also, make sure you are going to be eligible at more than one school. Schools can change their admission requirements which can completely ruin you. It happened most recently with UBC's abolition of the 10-year rule which has seriously compromised the chances of some pretty incredible people both on and off this forum.

 

As for picking a program, send lots of e-mails to departments. Unfortunately, in Ontario it's becoming increasingly difficult to do second degrees (I suspect this may be due to "reach higher" funding being tied to increasing enrolment and second degree students may not count as this). Lots of schools will let you though, so check with programs. Pick one that you're very interested in, and have done well in academically during your first degree. It may be best to pick a program that can also let you review for the MCAT - but this is going to vary for people (if you haven't taken a physics course for instance, try to take one at some point).

 

Generally speaking, it's best to make yourself into a traditional applicant. In addition to performing well academically, you should balance this with extracurriculars - research, clubs, volunteering, etc. A great tip I can offer is to do your best to turn your life and experience into a narrative - if you did poorly during your first degree because you spent too much time playing video games, develop some resources for people who play video games excessively on campus. If, during your time off from university you became a parent, develop resources for other parents on campus or work on programs to empower parents to find change. This makes your application - and your answer to interview questions - much more compelling.

 

Just remember, GPA is king. If you have engineered world peace in your second degree but only have a 3.6 GPA in it, you're going to have a very hard time getting into medical schools in Canada.

 

Also, do start thinking now about the MCAT. Doing well on the MCAT will make your life easier by enabling Queen's and Western as options. You are much more limited if you cannot make cutoffs at these schools. So start practising early (for instance, if you find the verbal section difficult, start reading a lot).

 

Above all, remember that if you are pursuing a second degree you probably have an advantage (however small or obscure) over many first-year students coming in. Make sure to utilize it. As someone with a second undergraduate degree, you not only have to be as good as someone who has only done one degree, you have to be better. Think carefully about ways you can accomplish that. It IS possible to enter medicine from a second degree - but you need to do everything you can to maximize your chances.

 

I'm confused about the admission reqs for UWO. How can I not take 1st year courses for a second degree, if I am in first year? Do I get to automatically skip to second year courses in my second degree or what?

 

Also, what does it mean about conditional offers of acceptance? It seems like they say you can't apply for the program until you finish your program, BUT they offer conditional acceptance before you finish? Totally confused about this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm confused about the admission reqs for UWO. How can I not take 1st year courses for a second degree, if I am in first year? Do I get to automatically skip to second year courses in my second degree or what?

 

Also, what does it mean about conditional offers of acceptance? It seems like they say you can't apply for the program until you finish your program, BUT they offer conditional acceptance before you finish? Totally confused about this.

For your 1st point, what UWO means is...after getting your first 4-year degree, if you choose to get a "2nd honours" degree, then you cannot simply take 1st year courses, but rather only take upper year courses that you have already taken prerequisites for.

For instance, in your 4 years, let's say you took a few intro economics courses. If so, in this "2nd degree", you should take upper year courses that have those intro courses as the prereq. Does this make sense?

 

With regard to your 2nd point, you do NOT have to finish your program to apply, but rather in order to start the MD program at Western. Therefore, what they mean is this...If you are applying in the last year of your degree, then as long as one of your completed years meets the cutoff, then they may give you a conditional offer with the condition that the year you are in will also meet the assigned cutoff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...