News: DOs will now be IMGs in Canada

[ellorie]

Probably because some Canadians studying there really want to come back to Canada?

[DocMC]

This has me worried as an incoming OMS-I. Do you think I should be worried about getting a residency in a non-competitive field in the US, such as FM? FM can be on a J1 or H1B visa... Internal med? Psych? It's scary not knowing what the future holds...

[medigeek]

Interesting - where did you hear this (it would be consistent with the other change of course)? The timeline would be obviously important. I mean we have DO in the system of course fully expecting to return via that route etc.

It's a proposed change by the MCC, which will have a nation wide effect.

To be honest, who cares if DO's are considered IMG in Canada.

 

Check out LECOM's match:

 

The 2014 LECOM graduates had a 99.4 percent match rate. In 2013, 100 percent of the eligible members of the College of Medicine Class of 2013 matched for placement in accredited post-graduate medical education programs.

 

http://www.fcbc.net/archangel/woa/mgServeFile.php?fn=0_49_public_admissions/2014%20LECOM%20Match%20Summary.pdf

 

Not saying you're wrong, but I wouldn't look at plain numbers and make a judgement based off of that. As a Canadian you will be faced with visa issues which limits your options a lot. Also, in order to maximize your chances you need to be okay with being in undesirable areas for residency.

[ellorie]

I can't say that most of those matches look like particularly stunning locations - one of them is a residency that is based out of the Florida Correctional Facility.

[DocMC]

Do you think it is possible to push for US DO grads to maintain their CMG status for CaRMS in Ontario, but require them to take the MCCEE and NAC? Yes the NAC is only for IMGs, but maybe US DO's can maintain their CMG status?

[thegame11]

This has me worried as an incoming OMS-I. Do you think I should be worried about getting a residency in a non-competitive field in the US, such as FM? FM can be on a J1 or H1B visa... Internal med? Psych? It's scary not knowing what the future holds...

 

No, you shouldn't be worried. Enjoy your acceptance and stop worrying about uncertainties. Being accepted into a US school is a great accomplishment. In the hospital, nobody cares if you are a DO or MD. You are "the doctor." I am biased because I am a DO student.

 

You will have no problem entering those fields. You can write the USMLE to enter the MD residencies. I know most family med programs will accept COMLEX. If you want to stay close to Canada, do your residency in Michigan. Michigan, Ohio, PA have tons of DOs.

[thegame11]

I wasn't too hopeful about matching in Canada after my DO degree. Looks like now its official. Gonna focus on matching in the US.

 

Yeah me too. I couldn't even secure audition rotations, so no CARMS for me...

 

missed this when it was posted - that actually is very big news. I just came from a talk done by a very prominent doctor that covered DO as a part of the lecture - his thoughts were the lack of proper regulation has seriously weakened the credibility of the program and now US residency are further pulling back (he chairs a major department in the US). Wasn't exactly painting a good picture here.

 

I am not so sure that this. DO and MD residencies are going to be merging in the next couple years.

 

At the end of the day, if you don't get into a Canadian Medical School or a Allopathic Medical school, the next best thing is DO schools (with 70% residency match).

 

I agree with this statement. But, the match rate is over 95%. 70% is the for the people who actually matched into MD residencies. Most of the remaining 30% got withdrawn from the MD match because they probably matched into DO residencies and DO match happens before MD match.

[NLengr]

It's a proposed change by the MCC, which will have a nation wide effect.

 

I guess the major question right now is how that will effect CaRMS. Will a change by the MCC to DO's licensing status immediately effect DO's trying to match, or does CaRMS itself also have to pass a rule making DO's IMG's wrt the match itself.

[A-Stark]

I don't believe CaRMS itself has much role in determining eligibility for DOs - that's up to provincial licensing bodies. Could be wrong though.

[DocMC]

No, you shouldn't be worried. Enjoy your acceptance and stop worrying about uncertainties. Being accepted into a US school is a great accomplishment. In the hospital, nobody cares if you are a DO or MD. You are "the doctor." I am biased because I am a DO student.

 

You will have no problem entering those fields. You can write the USMLE to enter the MD residencies. I know most family med programs will accept COMLEX. If you want to stay close to Canada, do your residency in Michigan. Michigan, Ohio, PA have tons of DOs.

I'm actally from the city right across the Detroit Michigan bordet, so Michigan is definitely my place of choice for residency.

[A-Stark]

You mean you're from "South Detroit"?

[DocMC]

No, I am from Canada.

[seeking1]

I guess the major question right now is how that will effect CaRMS. Will a change by the MCC to DO's licensing status immediately effect DO's trying to match, or does CaRMS itself also have to pass a rule making DO's IMG's wrt the match itself.

 

Thanks to all above for answer my question. I believe this is the pertinent question now, should we call CaRMS to find out the impact of MCC's decision on applying to Canadian residencies?

[xClashx]

"Btw I spoke to the COA president and found out that: Ontario had actually decided in Fall 2013 to consider DOs as IMG but for some reason didn't post this info until now. MCC's Ian Bowmer agreed that the update on their website was just made last week. And most likely we will be classified as IMGs NATIONWIDE in the upcoming years. Ontario council will be holding a meeting on this topic next week and the fate of 2015 class is really in their hands."

 

"Just called CaRMS....the rep spoke to his supervisor and told me that CaRMS just found out recently about DOs potentially being considered IMGs in ON but its the Council of ON faculties of medicine in conjunction with Ministry of health who are pushing for it, not CaRMS....and the rep was also aware that COA is already working on it! "

 

Taken from a Osteopathic Medicine group on facebook

[Edict]

Let Canada's brain drain continue.

 

Yeah I guess but considering so many doctors can't find jobs right now do we really need more residency spots?

[rmorelan]

Yeah I guess but considering so many doctors can't find jobs right now do we really need more residency spots?

 

well jobs in particular fields at least. We are all comparing things mental to a the shortage times which makes the current close to baseline overall a bit worse I think.

[rmorelan]

"Btw I spoke to the COA president and found out that: Ontario had actually decided in Fall 2013 to consider DOs as IMG but for some reason didn't post this info until now. MCC's Ian Bowmer agreed that the update on their website was just made last week. And most likely we will be classified as IMGs NATIONWIDE in the upcoming years. Ontario council will be holding a meeting on this topic next week and the fate of 2015 class is really in their hands."

 

"Just called CaRMS....the rep spoke to his supervisor and told me that CaRMS just found out recently about DOs potentially being considered IMGs in ON but its the Council of ON faculties of medicine in conjunction with Ministry of health who are pushing for it, not CaRMS....and the rep was also aware that COA is already working on it! "

 

Taken from a Osteopathic Medicine group on facebook

 

There is clearly a part of how all this works I don't understand - which just shows a pretty big gap in my knowledge base. I am trying to learn how all this fits together.

 

Ok, so CARMS and the medical college of Canada are all national organizations. So is the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada (RCPSC) and its family medicine counterpart. There of course are provincial colleges. How would Ontario in particular treat a DO differently if the national organizations aren't. In this particular scenario say a DO grad did the extra test and then the MCCQE etc, did residency in Canada, and passed the RPSC exam in a specialty post. What is left for Ontario to do - how do you get worried about a medical school training after did a full residency?

[uoit101]

Any update on this? Are DO's now considered IMGs in Canada?

[JohnGrisham]

Pretty old news, IMG in ON the upcoming cycle onwards, and as well Manitoba.

In BC DO remains CMG status. 

Check the CaRMS website for details on each province eligibility.

This past match, 6 DO's applied and 3 matched (2 as CMGs in Ontario, and 1 as CMG in BC). 

[JohnGrisham]

There is clearly a part of how all this works I don't understand - which just shows a pretty big gap in my knowledge base. I am trying to learn how all this fits together.

 

Ok, so CARMS and the medical college of Canada are all national organizations. So is the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada (RCPSC) and its family medicine counterpart. There of course are provincial colleges. How would Ontario in particular treat a DO differently if the national organizations aren't. In this particular scenario say a DO grad did the extra test and then the MCCQE etc, did residency in Canada, and passed the RPSC exam in a specialty post. What is left for Ontario to do - how do you get worried about a medical school training after did a full residency?

To be frank - they realized that there is a growing cohort of Canadians in the next couple of years who will be graduating from USDO schools, with many of them being from Ontario, and they very likely wanted to avoid the problem of having many of them potentially displacing Canadian MD grads(If you assume random probability).  

 

It's an easy thing for them to do, as they can just fall back on "different accreditation" standards of schools as the rationale. 

 

The fact that up until now handfuls of Canadian DO's have matched in CaRMS and have successfully gone on to complete 2-5 year residencies + fellowships and become full physicians - puts any worries of quality and such out the window, at least anecdotally.  Especially when the schools that even take internationals, are generally the one's that are better equipped to provide a quality education.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not using their decision to relegate DO's to IMG status as a negative argument- it is their right to choose to protect their own domestic grads, just like every other country in the world with limited GME spots (see CMG vs IMG(carrib et al) debate), I just don't see why they have to be vague about it. Say it as it is, and move on.  

 

 

[s5260205]

Pretty old news, IMG in ON the upcoming cycle onwards, and as well Manitoba.

 

In BC DO remains CMG status. 

 

Check the CaRMS website for details on each province eligibility.

 

This past match, 6 DO's applied and 3 matched (2 as CMGs in Ontario, and 1 as CMG in BC). 

I believe DOs can match in CMG stream in Manitoba (http://www.carms.ca/en/residency/r-1/eligibility-criteria/provincial-criteria/manitoba/) which makes only two provinces (BC, MB) that allows DOs to match in CMG stream and does not make much of a difference TBH.