brianch Posted June 19, 2016 Report Share Posted June 19, 2016 How much do you make? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisCPA Posted June 19, 2016 Report Share Posted June 19, 2016 For me, within 4-5 years, and I believe it is (at least currently) a likelihood. Main things are control (I want more of it), I believe myself to be a good leader & manager as well as business-minded. Also a sense of achievement. I feel like I'd be more invested in going to work if I knew it was my own. Things slowing me down: 1. selecting a location, not so much because its a dental practice, but because I am young and single and buying/starting a practice is essentially a form of settling down. 2. Cost. It's expensive. Can I afford to do it while still being able to invest & live in other ways? 3. Experience. When will I be ready re: clinical skillset & management acumen to be able to do this with a minimum of stress and heartache? At the moment I benefit from the reputation & image of the practices at which I associate. Once I go out on my own it's all on me. It's a big decision, and not one I wish to take lightly, and certainly not one anyone else should either. Notice how I never said I'm 100% committed to doing it. You have to be very sure of yourself before taking the plunge; otherwise you're making a costly, costly mistake if things go awry. Anyone who thinks "Oh I can definitely do this" without being fully cognizant of what's involved is doing themselves an ill favour. Also the mentality of many new grads is to pay off student debt and then purchase a home. If you plan on opening a practice in the next 4 to 5 years, you may want to consider delaying the home purchase until after you setup your practice as taking on a mortgage will limit your borrowing capacity to purchase a practice or start one from scratch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
member_225 Posted June 19, 2016 Report Share Posted June 19, 2016 I really like your mindset, I hope to be like you one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleanup Posted July 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2016 How much do you make? That's hard to say. In the first few months thanks to easing into a work schedule (ie. not working as much as I could), a lot of exams & other low-billing procedures, I'm not billing an insane amount right now. Also thanks to the way insurance pays and how associates receive disbursement you may not actually get paid for the first little while. I work in one office that is assignment (accepts insurance benefits) and another that is non-assignment (fee-for-service). In the insurance office my first paycheque was like 33% of my billings because it was near the end of the month I had billed the grand majority of my work and insurance hadn't paid yet, so the majority of my billings for that month I am not compensated for until the end of the next. For the FFS office, the collections were something like 99% of the billings, since they only did assignment for a few patients. I will say that even on a short work schedule (I am only working 3 or 4 days a week currently and am amping that up as I go with more hours/days) and relatively low billings, I am easily making a comfortable income for a single guy, and it will only continue to grow as I add time to my work schedule, become faster/more efficient and begin more high-yield procedures. My ideal goal is to only work about 3 days a week (but long ones; I mean 8-10 hours a day which is quite tiring in dentistry) and consistently bill in the mid 4-figure range per day (note, that's billings, not what I take home). I don't want to work harder than that as an associate to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clapton Posted July 13, 2016 Report Share Posted July 13, 2016 Are you on your way to make more than 100k (first 12 months out of school) ? Btw I really like your mindset Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleanup Posted July 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2016 Are you on your way to make more than 100k (first 12 months out of school) ? Btw I really like your mindset Yes, easily, but my experience won't translate to everyones. I do benefit from being relatively fast (in terms of basic dentistry like exams, anesthesia, diagnostic skills & operative/restorative work) as well as having busy schedules. I was careful in picking my jobs and on top of that I am good at getting patients back, getting them to request me, so that I'm booked out several weeks to a month (this is extremely rare in the GTA). But I am working quite far from the GTA. Non-assignment, for example, is nearly unheard of within 1.5-2 hours of the city. And I have a lot of friends who are working closer who just aren't busy, or are stuck doing cleanings. I do think that given the right (or wrong) unfortunate uncircumstances you can just as easily, if not more likely, find yourself struggling to make 6 figures your first year. Not booked, lots of ODSP/OW patients, too few hours, too many low yield procedures, office is not good at collecting or has a bad habit of writing off fees, etc. There's a lot of sketchy stuff out there and you can just as easily make very little money as you can make a lot. You need to be careful & formulaic and ruthless in how you approach your career if you want to strike some sort of balance between income, mental stimulation and physical comfort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleanup Posted July 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 I just dropped down to 3 days a week after just under 3 years of work and it's fantastic. I wanna do MWF. It'll probably never happen but one can dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisCPA Posted July 14, 2016 Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 Yes, easily, but my experience won't translate to everyones. I do benefit from being relatively fast (in terms of basic dentistry like exams, anesthesia, diagnostic skills & operative/restorative work) as well as having busy schedules. I was careful in picking my jobs and on top of that I am good at getting patients back, getting them to request me, so that I'm booked out several weeks to a month (this is extremely rare in the GTA). But I am working quite far from the GTA. Non-assignment, for example, is nearly unheard of within 1.5-2 hours of the city. And I have a lot of friends who are working closer who just aren't busy, or are stuck doing cleanings. I do think that given the right (or wrong) unfortunate uncircumstances you can just as easily, if not more likely, find yourself struggling to make 6 figures your first year. Not booked, lots of ODSP/OW patients, too few hours, too many low yield procedures, office is not good at collecting or has a bad habit of writing off fees, etc. There's a lot of sketchy stuff out there and you can just as easily make very little money as you can make a lot. You need to be careful & formulaic and ruthless in how you approach your career if you want to strike some sort of balance between income, mental stimulation and physical comfort. Typically I notice that in your first two years of your associateship, your average gross earnings should be in the range of $ 90,000 to $240,000 depending on the location of the practice(s). The average amount paid to an associate after lab fees ranges from 35% to 50%. Once you hone your clinical skills (0-2 years), consider opening or buying a practice. Your average gross earnings are likely to be in the range of $150,000 to $600,000. Again, this depends on where you practice and whether you are a general practitioner or specialist. As in many things, supply and demand can greatly impact one’s financial success. Under serviced areas outside metropolitan hubs where demand for dental services exceeds supply, are often times lucrative. In Ontario, these include Ottawa, Sarnia, Fort Erie, Kitchener, Waterloo, Cambridge, Guelph, Barrie, Orillia, Alliston, Milton, Orangeville and Bowmanville. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleanup Posted July 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 I'm T-Th-F Why do you think it will never happen? Well, it's just difficult to do I think. It's the dream schedule. I'm not sure how longterm I'll stay in my current practices but to get that kind of schedule requires some sort of commitment and slowly changing things (most associateships in the GTA are looking for evenings/weekends unless you stumble upon something really fortunate); or I have to be exceptionally picky & patient when I go job hunting again. That said I am already buying a lot of goodwill in my practices and think it's possible if I stick to my guns. Just not in the short-term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clapton Posted July 14, 2016 Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 Is 35 hours/week the average for a dentist ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Watson Posted July 15, 2016 Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 It's hard to ask about averages, it will depend on how many days you work, evenings, weekends, half days, etc Also, it depends on what you mean in terms of hours. As in hours spent at work or hours spent actively treating patients? There is a fair amount of prep and case management in a day. 7-8 hours of treatment time can easily make for a 10 hour day including lunch break. Really, that's all to say that you probably won't get an answer to your question. How does it work for being paid for case management time, preparation etc? Do you include that in billing somehow? I'm sorry, I'm just very new to all of this and am therefore naive to what happens behind the scenes. I'm as assuming it's not just patient billing that gets you paid? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smoothoperator Posted July 18, 2016 Report Share Posted July 18, 2016 Thanks for starting this topic to help us newbies out. I am just wondering what sources are available for new associate to look for jobs? I know https://www.dentistry.utoronto.ca/practice-opportunities and ODA's classified are pretty good. What other sources are out there for us to looking for associate jobs? Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dentss Posted July 19, 2016 Report Share Posted July 19, 2016 Hey cleanup, based on your experience is it possible to make upwards of $150k in first year just doing the basics? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clapton Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 Very possible. Even in Quebec around Montreal (Laval, Repentigny, Terrebonne, Mascouche, etc) ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleanup Posted July 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 Hey cleanup, based on your experience is it possible to make upwards of $150k in first year just doing the basics? Thanks As long as you're booked and actually doing procedures worth your time (quadrant restorative, endo prostho), yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleanup Posted July 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 Thanks for starting this topic to help us newbies out. I am just wondering what sources are available for new associate to look for jobs? I know https://www.dentistry.utoronto.ca/practice-opportunities and ODA's classified are pretty good. What other sources are out there for us to looking for associate jobs? Thank you Oralhealthgroup has classifieds as well. But the U of T site, I have found, is by far the best in terms of online resources. Otherwise often the best jobs aren't advertised but are done through word of mouth. People like to hire people that others they trust have vouched for. I've already found some classmates of mine jobs. If they don't want them, they pass them on to the next person they know might be interested; it's not always public knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clapton Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 Lol, I have no idea, I don't work there. The question was a general question so I gave a general answer instead of the usual "well, that depends...", which I'm sick of giving. Can you make 150K as a new grad? For sure....but it depends. And what's the situation in Montreal ? As a McGill student you must have heard of from some old friends working in the city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleanup Posted July 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 If I were a soon to be grad again I would be cold calling labs in the area I wanted to work. Labs have a financial interest in connecting with new dentists, so they are highly motivated to help you and they know everyone. Plus it's good for you to be on excellent terms with your lab. Win win....plus no one does this. This. I know a lab owner in downtown Toronto. I had actually visited him for my own dental work and when he learned I was in dental school, he was always giving me advice and also toward the end of my academic career was telling me about dentists he knew that were hiring. That said I didn't want to work in the city, but labs are great resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleanup Posted July 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 To nip the income questions in the bud, yes you can make $100k. Yes you can make $150k. You can make $300k as an associate if you want. You could also be making less than $100k. There are always outliers, and there is an insane amount of variability. It depends on the following: How busy you are How fast you are What sorts of procedures you're doing How many hours you work How many days you work Whether or not you're seeing a lot of disability patients Are you the sole dentist in your practice(s) How ballsy you are with respect to keeping things in-house The accounts receivable and write-off habits of your practice(s) The renumeration arrangement between you and your principal(s) I'm sure there are some more things I'm missing. No one's situation is translatable to anyone else's. I know people doing cleanings and basic restorative 3-4 days a week. I know people working 6-7 days a week and trying their hand at a lot of prostho. The difference between these two people's incomes is going to be pretty stark. Quite simply, you make about as much money as you care to. If you get stuck in a job that you don't believe is yielding yourself an income you're satisfied with, then leave and find another one. This is the main reason why I said in several of my posts that in my honest opinion the first couple years of associateship should be about learning and expanding your knowledge and skillset, not so much income. The main thing that's going to help you pay down debt and stay ahead of expenses is living well within your means. Generally the jobs where you're learning alot and also making a good income tend to go hand in hand, but that's not always the case. Chase knowledge first. The income will come. Spend little, learn a lot, and try to be a good dentist, not a wealthy one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PréDentaire Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 If I were a soon to be grad again I would be cold calling labs in the area I wanted to work. Labs have a financial interest in connecting with new dentists, so they are highly motivated to help you and they know everyone. Plus it's good for you to be on excellent terms with your lab. Win win....plus no one does this. This. I know a lab owner in downtown Toronto. I had actually visited him for my own dental work and when he learned I was in dental school, he was always giving me advice and also toward the end of my academic career was telling me about dentists he knew that were hiring. That said I didn't want to work in the city, but labs are great resources. Labs? what kind of labs are we exactly talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BScDMD Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 Labs that fabricate crowns, bridges, custom trays, etc. for the dentist to place on the patient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PréDentaire Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 Labs that fabricate crowns, bridges, custom trays, etc. for the dentist to place on the patient. would it be recommended to work in labs post grad or do a residency or simply starting an associateship? talking salary, hours, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BScDMD Posted July 23, 2016 Report Share Posted July 23, 2016 Dental lab technicians work in labs, they get certified to do it. No dental school required. I don't think many (if any) dentists work as lab technicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flosser Posted December 29, 2016 Report Share Posted December 29, 2016 Awesome discussion. Thank you so much for the elaborated answers @ Cleanup and @Malkynn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
member_225 Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 I would like to ask both cleanup and Malkynn, not about the amount of money you make, but how do you find the job so far? Tiring? Fun? Anything you would have liked to know before started to work/pursue dentistry? Any regrets? No rush, thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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