International Electives

[F508]

I've heard that in some European countries, 3rd and 4th year clerkship students have less responsibilities than students in Canada do (more observerships than clincial rotations)... has anyone completed visiting rotations internationally or know of people who have? Could you share your experience and which department you rotated in?

[DocA]

I don't have any info on that but keep in mind that in Europe students go from high school to med school so some program there are actually 6 years long so maybe 3rd and 4th years there are not the same as here.

[ralk]

I don't have any info on that but keep in mind that in Europe students go from high school to med school so some program there are actually 6 years long so maybe 3rd and 4th years there are not the same as here.

 

When some European schools have their clinical rotations - even in 6 year programs - their level of responsibility is well below that of Canadian or American schools. At some places it's basically a very long observership.

 

OP, talk to the international electives program coordinators at your home school. They'll be able to give you a sense of what to expect for the programs that might interest you, or could put you in touch with students who did these rotations before. In general I'd expect to do less than during Canadian electives, even if it's just because you're not familiar with their system. However, international electives are very broad in terms of what you get to do, so it's hard to give blanket statements. It's going to depend on the program, the country, the region, the department, even the individual preceptor.

[thestar10]

 Super broadly, Europe and Australian Medical schools are essentially observerships based on the experience of my classmates. Africa and South America are much more hands on. (Based on the experiences of ~10 people I know)

[F508]

When some European schools have their clinical rotations - even in 6 year programs - their level of responsibility is well below that of Canadian or American schools. At some places it's basically a very long observership.

 

OP, talk to the international electives program coordinators at your home school. They'll be able to give you a sense of what to expect for the programs that might interest you, or could put you in touch with students who did these rotations before. In general I'd expect to do less than during Canadian electives, even if it's just because you're not familiar with their system. However, international electives are very broad in terms of what you get to do, so it's hard to give blanket statements. It's going to depend on the program, the country, the region, the department, even the individual preceptor.

Thanks to everyone who responded!

 

I know it must varies a lot from country to country. I was hoping to get some anecdotal examples before contacting schools. I know a few people who went to IFMSA stages (ex: France) and apparently they were more observerships.

 

If others have any examples to share for specific countries, please do!

[daftjustice]

I used to attend an Irish medical school for 2 years before getting accepted to a Canadian medical school.

 

 

Irish medical students are given tons of responsibilities. I scrubbed into 30+ surgeries in my first year alone. learned to suture, staple, etc. Stripped a couple varicose veins. Got to make some very simple and relatively riskless incisions even. Got to participate in everything in general surgery and ortho from mastectomies to ORIFs in ortho (and by participate I mean beyond the "come here Med student and hold this retractor for 3 hours). By second year we were taking histories, presenting them and doing admission orders (with guidance of course!). I imagine that 3 & 4 year is even more responsibility.

 

I knew of a couple of mac students who did an elective at my school. Don't know how much responsibility they were given however.

[ralk]

I used to attend an Irish medical school for 2 years before getting accepted to a Canadian medical school.

 

 

Irish medical students are given tons of responsibilities. I scrubbed into 30+ surgeries in my first year alone. learned to suture, staple, etc. Stripped a couple varicose veins. Got to make some very simple and relatively riskless incisions even. Got to participate in everything in general surgery and ortho from mastectomies to ORIFs in ortho (and by participate I mean beyond the "come here Med student and hold this retractor for 3 hours). By second year we were taking histories, presenting them and doing admission orders (with guidance of course!). I imagine that 3 & 4 year is even more responsibility.

 

I knew of a couple of mac students who did an elective at my school. Don't know how much responsibility they were given however.

I had the exact opposite experience with Irish medical students rotating through here. The students themselves talked about the lack of responsibility in Irish programs and how they were learning on the fly here in Canada while on electives.

[daftjustice]

I had the exact opposite experience with Irish medical students rotating through here. The students themselves talked about the lack of responsibility in Irish programs and how they were learning on the fly here in Canada while on electives.

In terms of what? I think the one thing I kept hearing about is that the upper year Irish students were unfamiliar with the administrative aspect of medicine in Canada (how to efficiently navigate EMRs, dictation, etc. By the way, just because I'm calling it administrative doesn't mean I think it's unimportant!) So with regards to that, I can definitely see where you're coming from. The other thing is it depends on which specialty. I do know that at my school our dedicated anesthesiology rotation was a little weak whereas our surgical experiences were quite strong (haha how could that be given how closely the two are intertwined?) On the other hand our experience in other specialties like pediatric medicine blows some Canadian schools out of the water.

 

Irish medical schools are many and I should amend my previous comment to refer specifically to my own school. And the other thing I should probably admit is that at my school you are given responsibility if you ask for it, but the guidance isn't there if you sit back and prefer to be spoon-fed.

 

However, I spent a summer of working with a general surgery team in Toronto and tbh I was really surprised time and time again at what my CMG counterparts knew and what they didn't.

 

I'm super excited and grateful to attend a Canadian medical school this fall and see how things are.

[ralk]

 

In terms of what? I think the one thing I kept hearing about is that the upper year Irish students were unfamiliar with the administrative aspect of medicine in Canada (how to efficiently navigate EMRs, dictation, etc. By the way, just because I'm calling it administrative doesn't mean I think it's unimportant!) So with regards to that, I can definitely see where you're coming from. The other thing is it depends on which specialty. I do know that at my school our dedicated anesthesiology rotation was a little weak whereas our surgical experiences were quite strong (haha how could that be given how closely the two are intertwined?) On the other hand our experience in other specialties like pediatric medicine blows some Canadian schools out of the water.

 

Irish medical schools are many and I should amend my previous comment to refer specifically to my own school. And the other thing I should probably admit is that at my school you are given responsibility if you ask for it, but the guidance isn't there if you sit back and prefer to be spoon-fed.

 

However, I spent a summer of working with a general surgery team in Toronto and tbh I was really surprised time and time again at what my CMG counterparts knew and what they didn't.

 

I'm super excited and grateful to attend a Canadian medical school this fall and see how things are.

 

 

The sense I got was that it wasn't just administrative tasks that they were adapting to, but that much of their third year was spent observing rather than seeing patients independently. Maybe your school set things up differently.

 

Scrubbing into surgeries and getting to participate are options in Canada too for those who want to spend that much time in an OR in the first two years. I don't doubt there are 2nd year or even 1st year CMG students who are already much more capable in an OR than I am, but that's because they want to be surgeons and I don't. I have to wonder if that's the situation you were in when you were in Toronto - summer's the slow time for ORs and tends to be avoided if possible by CMGs who have a real interest in surgery.

[daftjustice]

 

Scrubbing into surgeries and getting to participate are options in Canada too for those who want to spend that much time in an OR in the first two years. I don't doubt there are 2nd year or even 1st year CMG students who are already much more capable in an OR than I am, but that's because they want to be surgeons and I don't. I have to wonder if that's the situation you were in when you were in Toronto - summer's the slow time for ORs and tends to be avoided if possible by CMGs who have a real interest in surgery.

Lol. So just the CMGs who are half-heartedly interested in surgery? What a terrible mindset if that's the case. Tbh the questions asked of 1st year residents was revelatory too.  More time in the OR at any point is beneficial if one is doing it right, especially in the summer, It also breaks up the monotonous aspects of research projects.

 

Anyways, OP send a PM if you want to ask some more questions about electives in Ireland - Dublin specifically. I know both CMGs who did electives there and IMGs if you want their perspectives.

[ralk]

Lol. So just the CMGs who are half-heartedly interested in surgery? What a terrible mindset if that's the case. Tbh the questions asked of 1st year residents was revelatory too.  More time in the OR at any point is beneficial if one is doing it right, especially in the summer, It also breaks up the monotonous aspects of research projects.

 

Anyways, OP send a PM if you want to ask some more questions about electives in Ireland - Dublin specifically. I know both CMGs who did electives there and IMGs if you want their perspectives.

 

Not just half-heartedly interested in surgery, NOT interested in surgery. We all do a surgery rotation, but only a fraction of people actually want to be surgeons. How is it a terrible mindset not to have spent extra time doing something you have no interest in doing in the future? I stepped foot into an OR twice in my first two years - by choice - because I spent the rest of my time doing things more relevant to my future career. I put in the work to be competent to my level of training when it comes to surgical things, not phoning anything in, but also not going to spend my time learning detailed surgical anatomy or advanced suturing techniques that I will literally never need to know again. In the summer, you'll get far more people like me in General Surgery than you'll get surgery gunners.