Swomen Appeal

[MD95]

Hello everyone

 

I was wondering if anyone here had or knows of anyone who successfully appealed to be considered as SWOMEN applicant without attending high school in SWOMEN communities

 

Basically, I immigrated to Canada with my family just after I graduated high school (outside Canada) and we've been living in London since then. I was advised by the Admissions office to submit an appeal.

 

I was wondering if anyone knows of any success stories ? I'm debating if I should go ahead with the appeal or not ?

 

Thanks!

[IMislove]

If the admissions committee advised you, and it gives you a better chance of getting an interview, why would you not? Just see what happens. If it isn's successful at least you can say you tried.

[1994]

I'm curious how long you have lived in London for and what your argument would be for them to grant you SWOMEN status. Western recently (I believe last cycle) changed SWOMEN criteria such that you had to attend a local high school for all four years opposed to just graduating from one. Just bringing this up because they have obviously tightened up their criteria and there are people who are arguably "more SWOMEN" than you who are no longer considered SWO applicants...not suggesting that you shouldn't try but I don't think you would have a very strong case. 

[rmorelan]

I'm curious how long you have lived in London for and what your argument would be for them to grant you SWOMEN status. Western recently (I believe last cycle) changed SWOMEN criteria such that you had to attend a local high school for all four years opposed to just graduating from one. Just bringing this up because they have obviously tightened up their criteria and there are people who are arguably "more SWOMEN" than you who are no longer considered SWO applicants...not suggesting that you shouldn't try but I don't think you would have a very strong case. 

 

maybe but still nothing to lose something to gain  - and if admission suggested it then I would do it

[ralk]

I'd be surprised if your appeal was successful, but you might as well go ahead with it.

 

The recent change in SWOMEN requirements was due to the fact that there were people going to high school in grade 12 specifically for SWOMEN status, typically from the GTA, which left these students with far more connection to Canadian communities outside of the SWOMEN area than in it. If you moved from another country and your main geographical connection to Canada is in London, I can see how that might fit with what Western wants out of its SWOMEN status. I'd still expect the appeal to be rejected, but who knows?

[Artier]

If Admissions advised it, you probably have a reasonable chance.

[uwopremed]

I'd be surprised if your appeal was successful, but you might as well go ahead with it.

 

The recent change in SWOMEN requirements was due to the fact that there were people going to high school in grade 12 specifically for SWOMEN status, typically from the GTA, which left these students with far more connection to Canadian communities outside of the SWOMEN area than in it. If you moved from another country and your main geographical connection to Canada is in London, I can see how that might fit with what Western wants out of its SWOMEN status. I'd still expect the appeal to be rejected, but who knows?

 

 I would be surprised if this person gets SWOMEN status.  I think I posted on this board a few years ago how tons of Chinese parents sent their grade 11 and 12 kids to live in rooming houses in downtown London to go to Central High school, or Lucas up north, to not only get a highly ranked high school, but get SWOMEN status for med school admissions.  Several others sent their kids to Windsor, Sarnia, and even a few other small towns.  Obviously not everyone got in - but enough did (and are in the current 2nd to 4th year classes), that Western clamped down on the scam.  The same thing happened en mass in Alberta - where living for one year got you in province status.  The current first year class, based on what I saw at the white coat ceremony, is still disproportionately Asian compared to Canada's population of course, but much less so than previous years.

 

To me, the OP situation does not sound like a SWOMEN situation at all - especially if s/he lived in the London area for <5 years.  If it does get granted, word will get out, and it will basically increase directed immigration from some countries into London for their university age kids.  I know it's hard to believe - but in China - there are heavily active message boards for prospective immigrants that describe the best ways to get their kids easily into medical and dental schools - including plans to immigrate to small US states and places in Canada that have regional preferences.  It's why there's been a large influx of Chinese migrants to PEI and Nova Scotia recently - despite there being few jobs.  Asian thinking and Western thinking about how to get ahead are very different.  Most asian families have such a long term game in mind, it's hard to imagine for Western families.

[Artier]

 I would be surprised if this person gets SWOMEN status.  I think I posted on this board a few years ago how tons of Chinese parents sent their grade 11 and 12 kids to live in rooming houses in downtown London to go to Central High school, or Lucas up north, to not only get a highly ranked high school, but get SWOMEN status for med school admissions.  Several others sent their kids to Windsor, Sarnia, and even a few other small towns.  Obviously not everyone got in - but enough did (and are in the current 2nd to 4th year classes), that Western clamped down on the scam.  The same thing happened en mass in Alberta - where living for one year got you in province status.  The current first year class, based on what I saw at the white coat ceremony, is still disproportionately Asian compared to Canada's population of course, but much less so than previous years.

 

To me, the OP situation does not sound like a SWOMEN situation at all - especially if s/he lived in the London area for <5 years.  If it does get granted, word will get out, and it will basically increase directed immigration from some countries into London for their university age kids.  I know it's hard to believe - but in China - there are heavily active message boards for prospective immigrants that describe the best ways to get their kids easily into medical and dental schools - including plans to immigrate to small US states and places in Canada that have regional preferences.  It's why there's been a large influx of Chinese migrants to PEI and Nova Scotia recently - despite there being few jobs.  Asian thinking and Western thinking about how to get ahead are very different.  Most asian families have such a long term game in mind, it's hard to imagine for Western families.

 

You never cease to amaze...

[rmorelan]

You never cease to amaze...

 

even if that was entirely true - there is nothing wrong with actually playing the game by the rules. It isn't a scam to actually do what they say you need to do to get an advantage. It is called being smart. When I decided to prepare for applying to medical school the first thing I did was learn all the rules as well.

 

Of course if the outcome is not what the school wanted and thus they change the rules that is completely fair as well. That sort of thing goes on constantly.

[ralk]

even if that was entirely true - there is nothing wrong with actually playing the game by the rules. It isn't a scam to actually do what they say you need to do to get an advantage. It is called being smart. When I decided to prepare for applying to medical school the first thing I did was learn all the rules as well.

 

Of course if the outcome is not what the school wanted and thus they change the rules that is completely fair as well. That sort of thing goes on constantly.

 

Adhering to the letter of the rules while flagrantly breaking their spirit may be smart, but I strongly disagree in saying that "there is nothing wrong" with it. Taking advantage of loopholes to benefit yourself at the expense of others isn't a quality we should be looking for in physicians.

[rmorelan]

Adhering to the letter of the rules while flagrantly breaking their spirit may be smart, but I strongly disagree in saying that "there is nothing wrong" with it. Taking advantage of loopholes to benefit yourself at the expense of others isn't a quality we should be looking for in physicians.

 

Phrased that way it sounds horrible - and no probably we probably don't want a ton of people that routinely that bend rules to just a hair before breaking Yet I am not sure they actually are purposely flagrantly breaking their spirit with some form of ill intent (there is no mad cackling in the background). That would assume that most people even know why various schools even have particular policies and therefore cared to even find out (you have to do research often to figure out what the spirit of a rule even is - assuming you even can). Initially I had no idea why many of the schools had particular policies - why are grad students often given bonuses for instance if there is no evidence they make better doctors (there isn't)? That doesn't make sense. Originally there was no evidence that geographic constraints worked either (and they still are far from perfect). At least geography is a bit less mysterious.  My point is a lot of people just look at a set of rules, as well, a set of rules.   

 

If I was in another country and learned that if your children lived in particular area they would have an advantage to going to medical school then I don't think it would be strange at all to think strongly about moving your family to that area (not sure I would but I would still think about it). I know some doctors (and no uwopremed, ha, not just ones from particular parts of asia) that have put their practice in areas just so later on they children will potentially have advantages.

 

Where do you draw the line with taking advantage of "loopholes" or even what one is (your GPA afterall is supposed to be your true representation of your academic ability)? Doing easy degrees as schools don't care what the degree is in? Taking easier courses? Schools that don't count courses in the summer so stick all the hard stuff there? Students that use the various drop course/year policies in interesting ways (put all the hard courses in a single year)? People that learned french to get into Ottawa ( my personal favourite extreme example)?  Prepare for and take only the CARS section of the MCAT? move to a different province/take grad studies? take an completely other degree (and how much overlap should be allowed)? People that go do the US knowing we share accreditation an so they can immediately come back here?

 

I get your point - there has to be a line somewhere, there has to be - but one person's flagrant disregard is another person's fairly following the rules that are not hidden from general knowledge, and even showing the sort of intelligence, determination and foresight that is even useful in a doctor (it is not easy to do many of the loop holes mentioned). There are a lot of people that one way or another have used these policies to get into medical school - where they abusing the system or fairly following the rules?  

 

The middle ground here is likely just the simple acceptance by the admin of the schools that you cannot create a rule that someone/somehow can follow for an advantage and not expect people to do exactly that. We are way past the point of surprise in that regard - we have seen some dedicated efforts to say the least. So you cannot have rules that allow "loopholes" any more than you can have them in the tax code and not expect people to use them there. You can either avoid advantaging people, hide your rules (ahem, Queens) or use a work intensive holistic system which are relatively immune although there is a ton of work involved in processing applications as a result. Unfortunately I think that is what you are stuck with(?)

 

side note - learning french for Ottawa/Quebec was something another resident I know did JUST to get into a highly competitive speciality re CARMS. There was a lot of dubbed breaking tv episodes, i.e. bad episodes involved in that. If there is a way to achieve something, someone will try to do it. 

[ralk]

Phrased that way it sounds horrible - and no probably we probably don't want a ton of people that routinely that bend rules to just a hair before breaking Yet I am not sure they actually are purposely flagrantly breaking their spirit with some form of ill intent (there is no mad cackling in the background). That would assume that most people even know why various schools even have particular policies and therefore cared to even find out (you have to do research often to figure out what the spirit of a rule even is - assuming you even can). Initially I had no idea why many of the schools had particular policies - why are grad students often given bonuses for instance if there is no evidence they make better doctors (there isn't)? That doesn't make sense. Originally there was no evidence that geographic constraints worked either (and they still are far from perfect). At least geography is a bit less mysterious.  My point is a lot of people just look at a set of rules, as well, a set of rules.   

 

If I was in another country and learned that if your children lived in particular area they would have an advantage to going to medical school then I don't think it would be strange at all to think strongly about moving your family to that area (not sure I would but I would still think about it). I know some doctors (and no uwopremed, ha, not just ones from particular parts of asia) that have put their practice in areas just so later on they children will potentially have advantages.

 

Where do you draw the line with taking advantage of "loopholes" or even what one is (your GPA afterall is supposed to be your true representation of your academic ability)? Doing easy degrees as schools don't care what the degree is in? Taking easier courses? Schools that don't count courses in the summer so stick all the hard stuff there? Students that use the various drop course/year policies in interesting ways (put all the hard courses in a single year)? People that learned french to get into Ottawa ( my personal favourite extreme example)?  Prepare for and take only the CARS section of the MCAT? move to a different province/take grad studies? take an completely other degree (and how much overlap should be allowed)? People that go do the US knowing we share accreditation an so they can immediately come back here?

 

I get your point - there has to be a line somewhere, there has to be - but one person's flagrant disregard is another person's fairly following the rules that are not hidden from general knowledge, and even showing the sort of intelligence, determination and foresight that is even useful in a doctor (it is not easy to do many of the loop holes mentioned). There are a lot of people that one way or another have used these policies to get into medical school - where they abusing the system or fairly following the rules?  

 

The middle ground here is likely just the simple acceptance by the admin of the schools that you cannot create a rule that someone/somehow can follow for an advantage and not expect people to do exactly that. We are way past the point of surprise in that regard - we have seen some dedicated efforts to say the least. So you cannot have rules that allow "loopholes" any more than you can have them in the tax code and not expect people to use them there. You can either avoid advantaging people, hide your rules (ahem, Queens) or use a work intensive holistic system which are relatively immune although there is a ton of work involved in processing applications as a result. Unfortunately I think that is what you are stuck with(?)

 

side note - learning french for Ottawa/Quebec was something another resident I know did JUST to get into a highly competitive speciality re CARMS. There was a lot of dubbed breaking tv episodes, i.e. bad episodes involved in that. If there is a way to achieve something, someone will try to do it. 

 

My point was that just because someone can do something, doesn't mean they're right to do it. Medicine - and life in general - involves so many opportunities where you can take advantage of the rules for your benefit, but shouldn't for the sake of others or society at large. Physicians get more opportunities like this than most. You're absolutely right, it's naive to expect everyone not to take advantage of loopholes, whether they're loopholes in taxes or loopholes in medical school admissions. Still, that doesn't mean those who take advantage of loopholes are justified in doing so.

[rmorelan]

My point was that just because someone can do something, doesn't mean they're right to do it. Medicine - and life in general - involves so many opportunities where you can take advantage of the rules for your benefit, but shouldn't for the sake of others or society at large. Physicians get more opportunities like this than most. You're absolutely right, it's naive to expect everyone not to take advantage of loopholes, whether they're loopholes in taxes or loopholes in medical school admissions. Still, that doesn't mean those who take advantage of loopholes are justified in doing so.

 

I agree with you there is moral constraints here For the sake of discussion I was inquiring to exactly where that line actually is considering there are literally dozens of ways of using the rules to your favour (some of which I mentioned) - some of which people might consider a loophole. There certainly would not be agreement on that - for instance to me learning an entire new language to get into medical school knowing that as soon as you are done your training you will simply go back to solely practise not in that language is probably not in the spirit of the rules. Others would say well that person may end up practising in that new language (future is very hard to predict) and having that level of drive to learn medicine is exactly the sort of person they would want regardless of their new status. Others would say working around a rule that has some form of bias (say like a geographical bias) it justified simply because the underlying rule itself is unfair and discriminatory, and fighting fire with fire as it were is justified.

 

A big question on top of this is well response to any identified loopholes. Western has known for years how people used geography to their advantage and didn't do anything about it. Same arguably with their second degree policies originally (Western has been doing a lot of house cleaning recently - all of which seems to be directly at closing down "loopholes". At this point if you do live in London for your entire high school period you probably actually do have ties to the community regardless of your original intent).

[sangria]

 I would be surprised if this person gets SWOMEN status.  I think I posted on this board a few years ago how tons of Chinese parents sent their grade 11 and 12 kids to live in rooming houses in downtown London to go to Central High school, or Lucas up north, to not only get a highly ranked high school, but get SWOMEN status for med school admissions.  Several others sent their kids to Windsor, Sarnia, and even a few other small towns.  Obviously not everyone got in - but enough did (and are in the current 2nd to 4th year classes), that Western clamped down on the scam.  The same thing happened en mass in Alberta - where living for one year got you in province status.  The current first year class, based on what I saw at the white coat ceremony, is still disproportionately Asian compared to Canada's population of course, but much less so than previous years.

 

To me, the OP situation does not sound like a SWOMEN situation at all - especially if s/he lived in the London area for <5 years.  If it does get granted, word will get out, and it will basically increase directed immigration from some countries into London for their university age kids.  I know it's hard to believe - but in China - there are heavily active message boards for prospective immigrants that describe the best ways to get their kids easily into medical and dental schools - including plans to immigrate to small US states and places in Canada that have regional preferences.  It's why there's been a large influx of Chinese migrants to PEI and Nova Scotia recently - despite there being few jobs.  Asian thinking and Western thinking about how to get ahead are very different.  Most asian families have such a long term game in mind, it's hard to imagine for Western families.

 

 

This is confirmation bias. Just because you can pick out a visibly racial group, it doesn't mean you can use that observation to support your "scam" theory. Why don't we build a wall around SWOMEN area while we are at it?

 

I think the majority are non SWOMEN.

[MD95]

Thank you for your inputs everyone

Just to clarify, I'm not a Toronto native trying to take advantage of loopholes or anything as some have suggested. I did move to London from another country.

I understand Western's reasons for its SWOMEN rules and having been in London and Western for some time now, I do respect that and I don't plan
on challenging them.

I just emailed the Admissions asking if they are planning to give consideration to applicants in my situation later in future and they told me about the appeal process which I didn't know about earlier. Why did they say that, i don't really know. I assumed SWOMEN rules are very stringent too.

Anyhow, I'm not applying to Western until next cycle and I haven't decided if I'll go through with this process but thank you all nonetheless!

[Harvestpro]

 I would be surprised if this person gets SWOMEN status.  I think I posted on this board a few years ago how tons of Chinese parents sent their grade 11 and 12 kids to live in rooming houses in downtown London to go to Central High school, or Lucas up north, to not only get a highly ranked high school, but get SWOMEN status for med school admissions.  Several others sent their kids to Windsor, Sarnia, and even a few other small towns.  Obviously not everyone got in - but enough did (and are in the current 2nd to 4th year classes), that Western clamped down on the scam.  The same thing happened en mass in Alberta - where living for one year got you in province status.  The current first year class, based on what I saw at the white coat ceremony, is still disproportionately Asian compared to Canada's population of course, but much less so than previous years.

 

To me, the OP situation does not sound like a SWOMEN situation at all - especially if s/he lived in the London area for <5 years.  If it does get granted, word will get out, and it will basically increase directed immigration from some countries into London for their university age kids.  I know it's hard to believe - but in China - there are heavily active message boards for prospective immigrants that describe the best ways to get their kids easily into medical and dental schools - including plans to immigrate to small US states and places in Canada that have regional preferences.  It's why there's been a large influx of Chinese migrants to PEI and Nova Scotia recently - despite there being few jobs.  Asian thinking and Western thinking about how to get ahead are very different.  Most asian families have such a long term game in mind, it's hard to imagine for Western families.

 

 

This is confirmation bias. Just because you can pick out a visibly racial group, it doesn't mean you can use that observation to support your "scam" theory. Why don't we build a wall around SWOMEN area while we are at it?

 

I think the majority are non SWOMEN.

Definitely confirmation bias. I'm in the class and would be inclined to disagree based on what I see in the classroom. 

[uwopremed]

Definitely confirmation bias. I'm in the class and would be inclined to disagree based on what I see in the classroom. 

 You're in the class of 2020.  I thought Western might have already got rid of the loophole for your class - so no one in your class should have benefited from that procedure.  I'm in the class of 2019.  There are a couple of people in my class that did use the loophole - and at least 3 others in the years higher that I know for sure.  Probably quite a lot more - as people generally do not like to admit to it; especially now with the stigma that exists.

 

In terms of whether large number of Chinese Canadians used this technique?  No question - I went to one of those high schools in London (where I was born and raised) where this was practiced.  Denying that is like the politicians in BC that, until this year, were denying the obvious fact that foreign mainland Chinese were driving up the prices of real estate in Vancouver because there was not enough proof.  I'm still not sure why Canadians can't express some of the obvious frustrations when groups of relative newcomers break the spirits of our rules and culture for their self interested gain.  

 

The majority of both classes (2020 and 2019) are NON-SWOMEN by the way - in my year it's maybe 35% SWOMEN, and it's always been the case as far as I know.  But it is an easier way to get into the medical school.   It's just that the SWOMEN area only has 1.5 million people in it - and many of the top students from SWOMEN will go to other medical schools anyways.  So there is a cap on the number of genuinely interested medical students from the SWOMEN area that could still get the even lower standard on the MCAT.  The rest of Canada is 35 or so million - so of course we'd still expect a majority of the class to be NON-SWOMEN.

[SleeyPanda]

 You're in the class of 2020.  I thought Western might have already got rid of the loophole for your class - so no one in your class should have benefited from that procedure.  I'm in the class of 2019.  There are a couple of people in my class that did use the loophole - and at least 3 others in the years higher that I know for sure.  Probably quite a lot more - as people generally do not like to admit to it; especially now with the stigma that exists.

 

In terms of whether large number of Chinese Canadians used this technique?  No question - I went to one of those high schools in London (where I was born and raised) where this was practiced.  Denying that is like the politicians in BC that, until this year, were denying the obvious fact that foreign mainland Chinese were driving up the prices of real estate in Vancouver because there was not enough proof.  I'm still not sure why Canadians can't express some of the obvious frustrations when groups of relative newcomers break the spirits of our rules and culture for their self interested gain.  

 

The majority of both classes (2020 and 2019) are NON-SWOMEN by the way - in my year it's maybe 35% SWOMEN, and it's always been the case as far as I know.  But it is an easier way to get into the medical school.   It's just that the SWOMEN area only has 1.5 million people in it - and many of the top students from SWOMEN will go to other medical schools anyways.  So there is a cap on the number of genuinely interested medical students from the SWOMEN area that could still get the even lower standard on the MCAT.  The rest of Canada is 35 or so million - so of course we'd still expect a majority of the class to be NON-SWOMEN.

 

You need to see the LEW about all this pent up hatred, they can probably help. 

[1D7]

OP it's highly unlikely you'll be approved. There are people who have spent more time in SWO than you doing an undergrad+PhD who don't have SWOMEN status.

[Edict]

 You're in the class of 2020.  I thought Western might have already got rid of the loophole for your class - so no one in your class should have benefited from that procedure.  I'm in the class of 2019.  There are a couple of people in my class that did use the loophole - and at least 3 others in the years higher that I know for sure.  Probably quite a lot more - as people generally do not like to admit to it; especially now with the stigma that exists.

 

In terms of whether large number of Chinese Canadians used this technique?  No question - I went to one of those high schools in London (where I was born and raised) where this was practiced.  Denying that is like the politicians in BC that, until this year, were denying the obvious fact that foreign mainland Chinese were driving up the prices of real estate in Vancouver because there was not enough proof.  I'm still not sure why Canadians can't express some of the obvious frustrations when groups of relative newcomers break the spirits of our rules and culture for their self interested gain.  

 

The majority of both classes (2020 and 2019) are NON-SWOMEN by the way - in my year it's maybe 35% SWOMEN, and it's always been the case as far as I know.  But it is an easier way to get into the medical school.   It's just that the SWOMEN area only has 1.5 million people in it - and many of the top students from SWOMEN will go to other medical schools anyways.  So there is a cap on the number of genuinely interested medical students from the SWOMEN area that could still get the even lower standard on the MCAT.  The rest of Canada is 35 or so million - so of course we'd still expect a majority of the class to be NON-SWOMEN.

 

You would vote for Trump

[Edict]

 You're in the class of 2020.  I thought Western might have already got rid of the loophole for your class - so no one in your class should have benefited from that procedure.  I'm in the class of 2019.  There are a couple of people in my class that did use the loophole - and at least 3 others in the years higher that I know for sure.  Probably quite a lot more - as people generally do not like to admit to it; especially now with the stigma that exists.

 

In terms of whether large number of Chinese Canadians used this technique?  No question - I went to one of those high schools in London (where I was born and raised) where this was practiced.  Denying that is like the politicians in BC that, until this year, were denying the obvious fact that foreign mainland Chinese were driving up the prices of real estate in Vancouver because there was not enough proof.  I'm still not sure why Canadians can't express some of the obvious frustrations when groups of relative newcomers break the spirits of our rules and culture for their self interested gain.  

 

The majority of both classes (2020 and 2019) are NON-SWOMEN by the way - in my year it's maybe 35% SWOMEN, and it's always been the case as far as I know.  But it is an easier way to get into the medical school.   It's just that the SWOMEN area only has 1.5 million people in it - and many of the top students from SWOMEN will go to other medical schools anyways.  So there is a cap on the number of genuinely interested medical students from the SWOMEN area that could still get the even lower standard on the MCAT.  The rest of Canada is 35 or so million - so of course we'd still expect a majority of the class to be NON-SWOMEN.

 

There are Chinese students in literally every school in the province if not country, not just in Toronto. Just because there are some in London does not mean they are chasing SWOMEN status. I'm sure you could find a select few that did, but I'm willing to bet you the vast majority aren't. I think you have let the chasing medical school take over your reality. The newsflash is that not everyone wants medicine, in fact medicine is not even considered prestigious in China where doctors work in pretty difficult conditions for low wages. 

 

It is a bit naive to think that parents would send their kids off to PEI or London alone expecting them to somehow magically since they are 14 commit themselves to a career in medicine... without parental influence. 

[uwopremed]

There are Chinese students in literally every school in the province if not country, not just in Toronto. Just because there are some in London does not mean they are chasing SWOMEN status. I'm sure you could find a select few that did, but I'm willing to bet you the vast majority aren't. I think you have let the chasing medical school take over your reality. The newsflash is that not everyone wants medicine, in fact medicine is not even considered prestigious in China where doctors work in pretty difficult conditions for low wages. 

 

It is a bit naive to think that parents would send their kids off to PEI or London alone expecting them to somehow magically since they are 14 commit themselves to a career in medicine... without parental influence. 

 

What are you going on about?  I went to a specific London high school (London Central), that was ranked the number one public high school by the Fraser Report.  There were chinese people living in rooming houses for grade 11/12 that had their parents in the GTA so they could get SWOMEN status (or at least go to the number 1 ranked high school in Ontario).  In a few short years - my high school in London ON almost became half chinese (maybe a slight exaggeration).  This isn't some sort of theory - this is a fact.  Ever visit Old North - and you'll see it with your actual eyes. Not sure why someone at McMaster thinks this isn't the case.  The University recognize that this is a problem, and actually sort of 'stopped' it (by requiring 4 years of high school in SWO).  

 

In regards to being a Trump supporter - No - I hate the guy.   He's an overt bigot, a misogynist, is grossly incompetent and lacking in knowledge and incredibly rude.  I do agree with right of center points of view (ie - we should be smart with our immigration, and that modern Canadian values like equality for women and rule of law are worth holding on to) - but that doesn't mean I'd vote for an idiot.  Just because I'm not a big fan of our medical school having their SWOMEN policy exploited, or a big fan of our city having thousands of recent poorly educated religiously conservative migrants from the middle east that have difficulty assimilating (so many burkas and abayas in this city at times - some parts of the city and city parks seem more like the middle east than canada) - doesn't mean I'm pro Trump.  I'd vote Clinton in a heart beat.  

[indefatigable]

What are you going on about? I went to a specific London high school (London Central), that was ranked the number one public high school by the Fraser Report. There were chinese people living in rooming houses for grade 11/12 that had their parents in the GTA so they could get SWOMEN status (or at least go to the number 1 ranked high school in Ontario). In a few short years - my high school in London ON almost became half chinese (maybe a slight exaggeration). This isn't some sort of theory - this is a fact. Ever visit Old North - and you'll see it with your actual eyes. Not sure why someone at McMaster thinks this isn't the case. The University recognize that this is a problem, and actually sort of 'stopped' it (by requiring 4 years of high school in SWO).

 

In regards to being a Trump supporter - No - I hate the guy. He's an overt bigot, a misogynist, is grossly incompetent and lacking in knowledge and incredibly rude. I do agree with right of center points of view (ie - we should be smart with our immigration, and that modern Canadian values like equality for women and rule of law are worth holding on to) - but that doesn't mean I'd vote for an idiot. Just because I'm not a big fan of our medical school having their SWOMEN policy exploited, or a big fan of our city having thousands of recent poorly educated religiously conservative migrants from the middle east that have difficulty assimilating (so many burkas and abayas in this city at times - some parts of the city and city parks seem more like the middle east than canada) - doesn't mean I'm pro Trump. I'd vote Clinton in a heart beat.

 

Although I was also born and raised in London, I'm disappointed to hear unfavourable comments towards immigrants. London doesn't always have the greatest reputation to integration, and comments like these confirm those viewpoints. Although it's possible SWOMEN status could have been exploited by some, I know of people of very diverse ethnicities who have succeeded at very high levels after receiving all their pre-university education in London. Also, the idea that SWOMEN status immutable seems like it could be revised. UBC allows IP status to PhDs for instance, and perhaps similar ideas could be considered by Schulich. It's easy to forget, that except for indigenous people, many people are descended from relatively recent immigration (2nd generation myself). The first world privilege is easy to forget.

[uwopremed]

Although I was also born and raised in London, I'm disappointed to hear unfavourable comments towards immigrants. London doesn't always have the greatest reputation to integration, and comments like these confirm those viewpoints. Although it's possible SWOMEN status could have been exploited by some, I know of people of very diverse ethnicities who have succeeded at very high levels after receiving all their pre-university education in London. Also, the idea that SWOMEN status immutable seems like it could be revised. UBC allows IP status to PhDs for instance, and perhaps similar ideas could be considered by Schulich. It's easy to forget, that except for indigenous people, many people are descended from relatively recent immigration (2nd generation myself). The first world privilege is easy to forget.

 

Please don't mischaracterize my statements.  In general, the immigrant community in London has been wonderful.  I'm talking about the longstanding lebanese community, predominantly moderate muslims and christians, that have been heavily involved as developers and businesspeople.  About the successful and peaceful Korean community, that runs so much of our laundromats, convenience stores, and restaurants  - and whose kids have been academically very successful and integrated.  About recent Indian and Chinese and African immigrants that have made a home in London, paid municipal taxes to our community, and directly contribute here.  

 

What I don't like are recent immigrants, many who made money from questionable sources, living in Toronto and sending their kids to London for 1 year, living in a rooming house, to get SWOMEN status without contributing to our community at all.  I'm not a big fan of our federal government thinking it's a good idea placing 2000 people with no English skills, very conservative values, few marketable skills, and huge families into London without the proper infrastructure or even reasonable long term planning for integration.   Without thinking about the long term problems such placements cause to the socioeconomic landscape here (like they have in Sweden, France, England, and in fact even parts of Toronto).  Without thinking about how the already poorer segment of London ON now has a bunch of neighbours that are very different than them - and how wealthy political elites make these decisions and take in all the glory of being great humanitarians, without having to suffer the downsides of their policies. Many of the immigrants, that don't integrate, also don't have healthy Canadian values.  The way a very high proportion of recent immigrants from China or Korea treat darker skinned people is a disgrace - it makes the comments of US southerners seem tame.  Many conservative migrants from the middle east expressly forbid their daughters from talking to any boys, especially 'western' ones. How does that contribute to a long term healthy community?  It doesn't  - it creates two competing and increasingly hostile communities.

[ralk]

What are you going on about?  I went to a specific London high school (London Central), that was ranked the number one public high school by the Fraser Report.  There were chinese people living in rooming houses for grade 11/12 that had their parents in the GTA so they could get SWOMEN status (or at least go to the number 1 ranked high school in Ontario).  In a few short years - my high school in London ON almost became half chinese (maybe a slight exaggeration).  This isn't some sort of theory - this is a fact.  Ever visit Old North - and you'll see it with your actual eyes. Not sure why someone at McMaster thinks this isn't the case.  The University recognize that this is a problem, and actually sort of 'stopped' it (by requiring 4 years of high school in SWO).  

 

Ugh. I'm no fan of people coming to London or wherever else for high school to falsely establish roots in the SWOMEN community, and am in support of Western's change in policy in this regard, but this is just. so. wrong.

 

Central's been targeted as a school to go to for a very long time, and while I don't doubt there are some attending Central whose parents live outside the city, the vast majority of students at Central are from London. It has been a sought-after school for students of all ethnicities. It is far more than a slight exaggeration to say Central became half-Chinese in a few short years and especially to imply that this was primarily the result of GTA-based students. To the extent that you are seeing more students of Asian ancestry in London high schools, only a portion of which are Chinese, that increase is primarily driven by the growing number of families of Asian descent living in London. Ever visit Old North? I used to live there. Not sure what I was supposed to be seeing, but what I did see certainly doesn't support your race-based insinuations.