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Ugh. I'm no fan of people coming to London or wherever else for high school to falsely establish roots in the SWOMEN community, and am in support of Western's change in policy in this regard, but this is just. so. wrong.

 

Central's been targeted as a school to go to for a very long time, and while I don't doubt there are some attending Central whose parents live outside the city, the vast majority of students at Central are from London. It has been a sought-after school for students of all ethnicities. It is far more than a slight exaggeration to say Central became half-Chinese in a few short years and especially to imply that this was primarily the result of GTA-based students. To the extent that you are seeing more students of Asian ancestry in London high schools, only a portion of which are Chinese, that increase is primarily driven by the growing number of families of Asian descent living in London. Ever visit Old North? I used to live there. Not sure what I was supposed to be seeing, but what I did see certainly doesn't support your race-based insinuations.

 

I did say it was an exaggeration in my post - but the trend is very real.  An honest number for the graduating high school classes of 2009/2010/2011, when I was present, would be about 20-25%, which is really high for a city that at that time was no more than 3% asian.  It has increased since, though I don't know by how much.  The same is true for Lucas.  A lot of the houses that used to have university students in the less glamourous areas of Old North had become rooming houses for GTA based asians...i'm talking the area around princess/waterloo in particular, bonded by colborne, dufferin and wolfe. I suspect with the new changes, this will decrease.

 

The Chinese Canadians that live in London, but in a different school zone, are a different story.  They lobby to send their kids to Central at higher rates than other ethnicities, but that's totally kosher.

 

The issue isn't only Central or Lucas.  That's just what I know from personal experience.  It is (?was) occurring in average schools in towns like Strathroy, Woodstock, and Chatham as well.  Though on a much smaller scale.

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I did say it was an exaggeration in my post - but the trend is very real.  An honest number for the graduating high school classes of 2009/2010/2011, when I was present, would be about 20-25%, which is really high for a city that at that time was no more than 3% asian.  It has increased since, though I don't know by how much.  The same is true for Lucas.  A lot of the houses that used to have university students in the less glamourous areas of Old North had become rooming houses for GTA based asians...i'm talking the area around princess/waterloo in particular, bonded by colborne, dufferin and wolfe. I suspect with the new changes, this will decrease.

 

The Chinese Canadians that live in London, but in a different school zone, are a different story.  They lobby to send their kids to Central at higher rates than other ethnicities, but that's totally kosher.

 

The issue isn't only Central or Lucas.  That's just what I know from personal experience.  It is (?was) occurring in average schools in towns like Strathroy, Woodstock, and Chatham as well.  Though on a much smaller scale.

 

I was really thinking hard about if I should reply to your post, seeing as that you frequently make posts like these on the forums and I'm really not sure if me posting would help anyone. 

 

I want to emphasize how I think there's a lack of respect for the middle ground in your overall trend for posts. What I mean is, you have a right to state your perspective, but you cannot state that as truth. I may be wrong and being way too sensitive (sorry if that's the case), but I feel as if there is an underlying cynicality and arrogance in your posts and I am concerned that it might offend people or cause things to be misinterpreted.

 

For example, in this post, do you have stats to really back up your claim? Are you part of the ontario secondary educational system? It seems like you are pulling out an approximate number, and that you are judging others way too fast and stating things as exaggerated truths. It's a bit far-fetched to first pinpoint chinese canadians from the gta, and then say that they are a cause for all this. There are tons of other possibilities that we should consider first, and I'm sure, even though I'm not one, that chinese canadians from london reading this may not be so happy to hear that such assumptions exist in the premedical community...the future representatives of our healthcare system.

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I did say it was an exaggeration in my post - but the trend is very real.  An honest number for the graduating high school classes of 2009/2010/2011, when I was present, would be about 20-25%, which is really high for a city that at that time was no more than 3% asian.  It has increased since, though I don't know by how much.  The same is true for Lucas.  A lot of the houses that used to have university students in the less glamourous areas of Old North had become rooming houses for GTA based asians...i'm talking the area around princess/waterloo in particular, bonded by colborne, dufferin and wolfe. I suspect with the new changes, this will decrease.

 

The Chinese Canadians that live in London, but in a different school zone, are a different story.  They lobby to send their kids to Central at higher rates than other ethnicities, but that's totally kosher.

 

The issue isn't only Central or Lucas.  That's just what I know from personal experience.  It is (?was) occurring in average schools in towns like Strathroy, Woodstock, and Chatham as well.  Though on a much smaller scale.

 

You're pulling stats out of thin air. "for a city that at that time was no more than 3% asian" - there's census data from London in 2011, right in the time period you specify. It takes 20 seconds to Google. London was 5% Asian-ancestry back then. You're wrong on an easily verifiable number. Why should we give any credence to your other "facts", especially after you've already revised down your initial "slightly exaggerated" estimate for one number by half?!

 

You say "that's just what I know from personal experience", but personal experience is always biased and frequently wrong. You've demonstrated that you have no problem distorting the truth to serve your racially-charged narrative.

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You're pulling stats out of thin air. "for a city that at that time was no more than 3% asian" - there's census data from London in 2011, right in the time period you specify. It takes 20 seconds to Google. London was 5% Asian-ancestry back then. You're wrong on an easily verifiable number. Why should we give any credence to your other "facts", especially after you've already revised down your initial "slightly exaggerated" estimate for one number by half?!

 

You say "that's just what I know from personal experience", but personal experience is always biased and frequently wrong. You've demonstrated that you have no problem distorting the truth to serve your racially-charged narrative.

 

To be honest, I was thinking about the 2006 census for the London CMA as I graduated in 2010 and was at Central between 2006-2009 (i did my final year of high school elsewhere).  The data from the 2011 census was not released until 2012/13, and would not have represented the years I was physically at Central.  I have the link for your perusal so you can wallow in your ego.. 

 

http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CMA&Code1=555&Geo2=PR&Code2=35&Data=Count&SearchText=London&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&GeoLevel=PR&GeoCode=555

 

As you can see, the Asian population was way smaller then.  Chinese was 1.4%, Korean 0.4%, Japanese 0.1%, southeast Asian 0.9%, Filipino 0.3%.  The years I was at Central (2006-2009) best coincide with the 3.0% I said.

 

And for the record, the 2011 census was still only 2.0% chinese and 0.8% korean.  The other asian groups (filipino/southeast asian) are barely represented at Central even today.  So I was referring to them - and actually - mainly chinese.  I made the mistake, that many do, of equating Chinese with Asian (mainly because Asian sounds way less racially charged).  Taking that into regard, I may have even understated the overrepresentation that is present.  Which is in and of itself more observation rather than implying anything bad.  The only thing I really dislike is GTA people sending their kids here for a single year to get SWOMEN status.

 

And as of 2016, I do believe Central high school is close to 35-40% Asian.  At least from a close relative who's son goes there.  But yes - I don't have formal data for 2016, and I haven't gone to the high school in 7 years.  Unfortunately Canadian schools, unlike US schools, don't publish that data (or make it public).  I'm sure someone in our class with a younger sibling going there can give us more specific details.

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What are you going on about?  I went to a specific London high school (London Central), that was ranked the number one public high school by the Fraser Report.  There were chinese people living in rooming houses for grade 11/12 that had their parents in the GTA so they could get SWOMEN status (or at least go to the number 1 ranked high school in Ontario).  In a few short years - my high school in London ON almost became half chinese (maybe a slight exaggeration).  This isn't some sort of theory - this is a fact.  Ever visit Old North - and you'll see it with your actual eyes. Not sure why someone at McMaster thinks this isn't the case.  The University recognize that this is a problem, and actually sort of 'stopped' it (by requiring 4 years of high school in SWO).  

 

In regards to being a Trump supporter - No - I hate the guy.   He's an overt bigot, a misogynist, is grossly incompetent and lacking in knowledge and incredibly rude.  I do agree with right of center points of view (ie - we should be smart with our immigration, and that modern Canadian values like equality for women and rule of law are worth holding on to) - but that doesn't mean I'd vote for an idiot.  Just because I'm not a big fan of our medical school having their SWOMEN policy exploited, or a big fan of our city having thousands of recent poorly educated religiously conservative migrants from the middle east that have difficulty assimilating (so many burkas and abayas in this city at times - some parts of the city and city parks seem more like the middle east than canada) - doesn't mean I'm pro Trump.  I'd vote Clinton in a heart beat.  

 

Or maybe they wanted to go to what was ranked as the "best" public high school in Ontario... could that possibly be the reason?? naww....  News flash, most of these chinese kids won't get PR until the end of uni, medical school is not on their minds. 

 

Also, you said your school became more Chinese, the reality is that happened to pretty much every other high ranking Ontario public school during the same time period.  

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Please don't mischaracterize my statements. In general, the immigrant community in London has been wonderful. I'm talking about the longstanding lebanese community, predominantly moderate muslims and christians, that have been heavily involved as developers and businesspeople. About the successful and peaceful Korean community, that runs so much of our laundromats, convenience stores, and restaurants - and whose kids have been academically very successful and integrated. About recent Indian and Chinese and African immigrants that have made a home in London, paid municipal taxes to our community, and directly contribute here.

 

What I don't like are recent immigrants, many who made money from questionable sources, living in Toronto and sending their kids to London for 1 year, living in a rooming house, to get SWOMEN status without contributing to our community at all. I'm not a big fan of our federal government thinking it's a good idea placing 2000 people with no English skills, very conservative values, few marketable skills, and huge families into London without the proper infrastructure or even reasonable long term planning for integration. Without thinking about the long term problems such placements cause to the socioeconomic landscape here (like they have in Sweden, France, England, and in fact even parts of Toronto). Without thinking about how the already poorer segment of London ON now has a bunch of neighbours that are very different than them - and how wealthy political elites make these decisions and take in all the glory of being great humanitarians, without having to suffer the downsides of their policies. Many of the immigrants, that don't integrate, also don't have healthy Canadian values. The way a very high proportion of recent immigrants from China or Korea treat darker skinned people is a disgrace - it makes the comments of US southerners seem tame. Many conservative migrants from the middle east expressly forbid their daughters from talking to any boys, especially 'western' ones. How does that contribute to a long term healthy community? It doesn't - it creates two competing and increasingly hostile communities.

Integration issues are a two way street: stereotypes and stigmatization enhance rather than decrease divisions. Racial stereotyping is a blunt way of de-individualizing, regardless of which community it's present in.

 

It's possible that London has greatly changed: however, in my experience there wasn't any GTA importing. The area you spoke about had Western Frats and Sororities (Princess and Waterloo). In fact, I seem to remember that London may not even have been originally considered SWOMEN, although I'm not sure about this (think it might have been used for rural areas).

 

Unfortunately, academically I feel that even a top London public high school is not at the same level academically as some independent and private schools (rankings don't seem to be there).

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So I was referring to them - and actually - mainly chinese.  I made the mistake, that many do, of equating Chinese with Asian (mainly because Asian sounds way less racially charged).

 

No, uwopremed, most people do not equate Chinese with Asians once they, you know, spend some actual time with people of Asian ethnicity and understand that's an insensitive thing to do... especially since you can't always determine ethnicity simply based on appearances...

 

For all your talk about certain ethnic groups being prejudiced towards others and that creating separation and hostility, you seem to have no problems with your own prejudice, your own push for separation, your own hostility. If you want immigrants to desire integrate and have healthy Canadian values, you can start by demonstrating these qualities yourself.

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No, uwopremed, most people do not equate Chinese with Asians once they, you know, spend some actual time with people of Asian ethnicity and understand that's an insensitive thing to do... especially since you can't always determine ethnicity simply based on appearances...

 

For all your talk about certain ethnic groups being prejudiced towards others and that creating separation and hostility, you seem to have no problems with your own prejudice, your own push for separation, your own hostility. If you want immigrants to desire integrate and have healthy Canadian values, you can start by demonstrating these qualities yourself.

 

Not in person - but when talking about broad issues, it is frequently done.  For example, when people talk about the burgeoning diversity of Vancouver, most people say 'Asians' are fueling the growth and housing market.  But in core Vancouver, most people mean 'Chinese' - they colloquially use Asian as a synonym.  

 

Heck - even in my  class AND your class - there is a large Asian contingent.  Most people would say that.  But there are only a tiny number of vietnamese/filipinos/thais, etc.  The vast majority of Asians are Chinese, with several Koreans.   In fact - talking about Asian success actually clouds the fact that several Asian groups, like Filipinos, are in fact underrepresented in professions like medicine.

 

In fact, most chinese, when they say Asian, basically exclude filipinos and of course all south asians/west asians.  Seriously doubt me?  Go on even a cursory asian american or asian canadian board and see the discussions.  Or just ask a classmate of Chinese descent.

 

Irrespective, the city was 3 % asian when I was at London Central anyways, and only 2.0% Chinese by the 2011 census.  And the VAST majority of Asians in my high school were of Chinese or Korean descent only (including ethnic chinese minorities with parents from Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Burma - not just the Mainland, Taiwan, or HK).

 

In regards to my 'hostility' - please do tell.  I have used no epithets, not advocated for deportation, or any such garbage.  All I have done is highlighted some issues I have with SOME Asian-Canadians disproportionately exploiting our SWOMEN residency requirements, and expressing concern over mass refugee migration in our city with no plan for integration.  I personally DON'T like the Burka or Abaya as I think they are expressions of both women oppression and separation.  I also don't like genital mutilation - where the rates have increased EVEN in our own city over the last decade (as you would probably well know considering you are in 4th year already).  Those are REAL concerns in our community - and wishing them away simply lets that wound fester even more.  I don't know how rooted your family is to SWO - but my family is very rooted here.  They tend to be very liberal politically - but these are real discussions that we and many other families have at Thanksgiving.   Much of my extended family is here - not just living in student areas or in the 'Western' family - so these changes effect their lives.  Stifling these real genuine feelings is the kind of stuff that leads to Trumpism in the first place.

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Not in person - but when talking about broad issues, it is frequently done.  For example, when people talk about the burgeoning diversity of Vancouver, most people say 'Asians' are fueling the growth and housing market.  But in core Vancouver, most people mean 'Chinese' - they colloquially use Asian as a synonym.  

 

Heck - even in my  class AND your class - there is a large Asian contingent.  Most people would say that.  But there are only a tiny number of vietnamese/filipinos/thais, etc.  The vast majority of Asians are Chinese, with several Koreans.   In fact - talking about Asian success actually clouds the fact that several Asian groups, like Filipinos, are in fact underrepresented in professions like medicine.

 

In fact, most chinese, when they say Asian, basically exclude filipinos and of course all south asians/west asians.  Seriously doubt me?  Go on even a cursory asian american or asian canadian board and see the discussions.  Or just ask a classmate of Chinese descent.

 

Irrespective, the city was 3 % asian when I was at London Central anyways, and only 2.0% Chinese by the 2011 census.  And the VAST majority of Asians in my high school were of Chinese or Korean descent only (including ethnic chinese minorities with parents from Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Burma - not just the Mainland, Taiwan, or HK).

 

In regards to my 'hostility' - please do tell.  I have used no epithets, not advocated for deportation, or any such garbage.  All I have done is highlighted some issues I have with SOME Asian-Canadians disproportionately exploiting our SWOMEN residency requirements, and expressing concern over mass refugee migration in our city with no plan for integration.  I personally DON'T like the Burka or Abaya as I think they are expressions of both women oppression and separation.  I also don't like genital mutilation - where the rates have increased EVEN in our own city over the last decade (as you would probably well know considering you are in 4th year already).  Those are REAL concerns in our community - and wishing them away simply lets that wound fester even more.  I don't know how rooted your family is to SWO - but my family is very rooted here.  They tend to be very liberal politically - but these are real discussions that we and many other families have at Thanksgiving.   Much of my extended family is here - not just living in student areas or in the 'Western' family - so these changes effect their lives.  Stifling these real genuine feelings is the kind of stuff that leads to Trumpism in the first place.

 

Saying others use prejudiced language in no way excuses your own.

 

You've highlighted a great reason not to use such language - it lumps in disparate groups of people together based on superficial qualities, then characterizes them based on actions of a subset. You're right, the average Vietnamese-Canadian faces a very different circumstance than the average Chinese-Canadian and talking about successes of Asians in general eschews those important differences. So why did you lump them together with such imprecise language? Further, when your criticism was of a specific group of Chinese-Canadians from the GTA, why did you make arguments about Chinese-Canadians in general, including students from the SWOMEN area who used the system as intended? Only after repeated prodding do you make the distinction. You know that the language you used was inaccurate, you just explained as much in your own words. So why use it?

 

Moreover, why did race need to come into this conversation at all? You made an objection to GTA students coming into the SWOMEN area to gain SWOMEN status without a connection. Why does it matter that those students are of a certain background? If these were, I don't know, Icelandic-Canadians taking these steps, it wouldn't make any difference in whether those actions are justified or should be addressed, and the policy response would be no different.

 

This is the hostility you've been using in this and other threads. Injecting racial undertones when none are needed to make your argument, characterizing groups by their ethnicity rather than by their actions, and making specific claims about broad groups of people based on the actions of a few whose only common feature is race. Sure, you haven't used an epithet (in this thread at least), congratulations for showing such restraint - but your words are prejudicial nonetheless.

 

I have no idea why you feel so compelled to tout your family's roots in the city. What happens in London affects all the people who live here, from those who have recently arrived to those whose families have been here for generations. All Londoners care about how what happens in the city affects them. We should have open discussions about how our city should run, but I'm in no way stopping you from expressing your viewpoints, nor is anyone else. What I'm saying is that some of your viewpoints are wrong and that the way you're expressing them is needlessly prejudicial. If you truly want a civil discussion, remove the inflammatory language from your arguments. Being told to use non-prejudicial language doesn't stifle any feeling besides the desire to be openly prejudicial.

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