Dilemma: Canadian Applying To Us Schools

[GrindSeason]

Hi Everyone, first time poster here looking for some advice for a unique situation that I'm in. Hopefully some other people out there have been through something similar or might know some information that I don't! 

 

I'm planning to apply to medical school this summer but I'm debating if I should apply to American schools for several reasons. First, some facts:

 

• I have an undergrad degree from an Ontario university (cGPA = 3.80, sGPA = 3.85, year 2-4 GPA = 3.89)
• I am currently in my first year of a two year graduate program (Physiotherapy at an Ontario university), which I will finish in Sept 2018 if I stay in
• I wrote the MCAT for the first time in Aug 2016 and scored a 518 (pretty even across each subject, I studied hard)
• I decided I wanted to go to med school (and write the MCAT) after applying to PT (long story) but I got into PT so I went with it

The dilemma is this:

I learned from a grad school adviser that I am unable to apply to most Canadian medical schools while I am enrolled in a graduate program. I have to prove that I will be completing my Master's prior to the summer before entering med school in order for them to even consider my application. I also read most of the Canadian medical school's websites and found various statements which also say something along the same lines. The only schools that I think will actually let me apply this year (that I know of) are McMaster, Ottawa and possibly Alberta. However, I don't like McMaster's PBL style, Ottawa won't look at my MCAT and Alberta is out of province for me (odds are lower).

 

Mainly for this reason I am considering applying to American medical schools this year. I'm wondering if anyone has any opinions on this? (NOTE: I realize I can wait till I graduate and apply to all Canadian schools but I want to avoid this for several reasons that I won't get into). Some things I'm wondering about:

• I know it's tough for a Canadian citizen to get admitted to US schools but I think my admission stats are good and my ECs are pretty decent as well. Do I have a good chance at MD schools?
• Tuition is much higher in the states and obviously OSAP won't help me. Will I be able to get loans from a Canadian bank? Is their financial aid available from the schools for Canadians? Is the amount of debt I'll be in so overwhelming that it's not worth it?
• Will I have any trouble getting a visa if I get in? What about after the 4 years with finding a residency? Does being a Canadian citizen limit me at all?
• I wouldn't mind practicing in the states, I've heard the earning potential is higher and the outlook is better for doctors there at the moment. Are these things true? 
• Will I eventually be able to come back to Canada to practice?
• Are there any other major advantages or disadvantages to going to an American school that I haven't considered?

 

If you've read this far, thank you! I welcome any advice or knowledge anyone can share about these topics. It would be much appreciated! I'd also be happy to return the favour and answer any questions about how I got to where I am

[InstantRamen]

My info is outdated. I edited it. 

[ralk]

1) I'm not too well versed on American entry standards so please take this with a grain of salt, but your stats seem to be good enough to give you a decent shot at the lower tier, Canadian-friendly USMD schools. I'll defer to any more knowledgeable posters here, and would recommended checking out the US subforum here.

 

2) It is certainly possible to get a line of credit from a bank for American medical schools, but a cosigner is typically required, unlike with loans for Canadian schools where cosigners are not generally necessary. These lines of credit may not fully cover your expenses at an American school with today's exchange rate, so additional funding sources might be needed. Some schools do provide financial support through scholarships or bursaries, but it's not something to count on unless you've already been accepted for such financial support before starting your studies in the US. If you would have limited financial support from your family for this endeavour, you need to plan your finances very carefully before accepting any offer to the US, to ensure you can afford to make it to the end. Total debt from this path would be $250k+ at the end of things - it's a lot, more than you would likely have attending a Canadian school, but it is a manageable figure once you get into practice.

 

3) As it currently stands you should have no trouble getting a student visa to study in the US. Residency visas are a bit more complicated, but a USMD grad is in a better situation than most, including CMGs looking to study in the US. I believe you're able to work the first year of residency off your student visa from your medical school years, giving you time to arrange an H1b with your residency program (you would need to enter a residency program that would grant you an H1b visa though, not all do). This visa allows an easier path to staying in the US after residency if you choose to. The alternative, a J1 visa, is possible as well but troublesome for a few reasons. First, it technically requires you to leave the US for two years after it expires. Secondly, it requires the Canadian government to endorse the visa with a Statement of Need, which the Canadian government has been slowly restricting over the past few years.

 

Keep in mind though that visa rules are not set in stone and Trump's incoming administration has expressed interest in modifying the US visa system, particularly H1b visas. For various reasons, H1b visas for Canadian-born medical residents do not seem to be the target for any changes, but there's no guarantee they won't be adversely affected by any changes. Just something to keep in mind.

 

4) US vs Canada for medical practices depends very much on specialty and preferred working environment. Surgeons get paid more in the US and generally have a much better job market. Family Physicians tend to get paid more in Canada and have flexible career options. These elements are changing on both sides of the border, so it'd be very hard to predict what the relative market will look like for physicians by the time you'd wind up in practice.

 

5) Almost certainly yes, but not always easily. Again, it would depend on the specialty. For example, Internal Medicine graduates in the US can have difficulty getting certified in Canada because of shorter IM residency training times in the US. If you end up looking at residency in the US and want to get back to Canada, you'd have to check out the requirements to do so for your specialty(ies) of interest to ensure you'd be able to meet them.

 

6) I think you've covered the major pros and cons of going to the US. The only thing I'd add is that US schools are stratified by quality, so attending a lower-tier USMD school would somewhat restrict your options for residency programs. It's not a huge restriction, but compared to Canada where attending any medical school gives you a good shot at any residency program in the country, it's worth noting.

 

I also worry that you're discounting staying in Canada. Not considering Mac because of PBL makes zero sense to me. Many American schools use PBL too and Mac would be far cheaper and easier to attend than any American program. You should be applying to any Canadian program that'll consider you for this cycle, even if you apply for American programs at the same time. Likewise, it may be worth waiting that extra year until you can finish up your Master's and apply more broadly in Canada. Spending a year doing something else - say working as a PT - is a very reasonable option. You can still apply for American programs in the same cycle next year and jump on them if the Canadian applications don't work out. To me, the added security and flexibility of staying in Canada for medical school, combined with the lower debt is worth the extra year waiting. Some people put a premium on starting the process earlier, and that's a fair choice, but patience can be beneficial in the long run here.

[Bambi]

ralk makes emminent sense! PBL is a great way to learn and to discount it out of the box and chop off Mac just because is literally crazy, as is exposing yourself and your co-signer if you can get one acceptable to the bank, to thye horrific debt load which is so unnecessary. In your mind, you are seemingly taking a short route, which in reality has unnecessary minefields in it. Personally, I would rethink your potential route as it certainly makes no sense to me, but then again, its your life and your decision. On a K.I.S.S. basis (Keep It Simple Stupid), you are intending to go the extra miles to unnecessarily complicate your life for no good reason.

 

I guess theoretically the earning potential is higher in USA, as are malpractice insurance premiums as is the likelihood to be sued in their highly litigious society. And with their liberal gun laws, you are more likely to be killed by a bullet there than in Canada. I would not consider practicing in the US if I could treble my potential income. And if you cannot line up a solvent co-signer at the getgo, you are in fantasy land anyhow. Good luck.  

[robclem21]

The other option is to wait one more year after you graduate, work, and apply the following cycle in Canada. Medicine is a long haul process anyway so that 1 year isn't likely to make or break you.

 

Also, as others have said, you should definitely consider Mac. It is a great school and the students there love it. Is not doing PBL worth a quarter million dollars. Only you can answer that.

[011235813]

ralk and Bambi made some good points, however, I disagree with the statement about your chances at US schools.  With a 518 and a 3.8, your adjusted LizzyM score puts you at a 74. This makes you competitive for Mid Tier US schools, and around competitiveness for higher Tier US schools. With Stats like yours, you would be competitive at schools that are higher tier. While this would be dependent on your extracurricular activities, you could even have a shot at schools such as NYU, or even some of the Ivy Leagues. For example, a friend of mine who had a LizzyM score similar to yours got accepted at Northwestern, a school which is most definitely NOT low tier. In fact, your MCAT and GPA are the reported SDN average for Columbia. Your MCAT is higher than John Hopkins, although GPA is lower. While as a Canadian, you are less likely to get accepted, many of these higher tier schools will not care as much. You have a great shot at even higher tier schools in the US. That being said, hard to say what the Trump Administration will do to admissions across the border, but for now, you're in great shape.

Source: SDN

Try this, and see what I mean:

https://schools.studentdoctor.net/lizzym_score

[Meridian]

I cannot add much to the great points already raised other than I think the financial cost at US schools is higher than mentioned.  With the Canadian dollar currently at $1.31, +4 years at a mid-tier school with living expenses will cost you closer to $400K CAD.   You would need co-signed loans and other sources of money to do it.

[GrindSeason]

ralk: Thanks a lot for the information and insights, that was pretty helpful! The Trump administration coming in and shaking things up is definitely a concern. As is the exchange rate.

 

I should mention that I'm currently attending Mac for PT, which is also a PBL program so I have first hand experience. I have learned that I can tolerate PBL but I certainly do not enjoy learning this way. I much prefer a more didactic, traditional style. Hence, the idea of completing 3 more years of PBL at Mac's med school seems daunting to me. I have not ruled Mac out but it's something I keep in mind.

 

I am hesitant to wait another year mainly because PT is a challenging program and well, every year counts to me (in terms of how old I'll be when I finish med school). My thoughts were something like this: If I get accepted into an American school this fall I can drop out of PT and possibly take the year off to make some money and do some travelling. PT is a great career so I would never drop out unless I was accepted to a med school. I realize this may sound silly to some but I do see benefit in getting away from school for a bit as a 20-something.

 

f011235813: That's a useful tool, thanks! I'll have to look more into how these top-tier schools consider Canadian applicants. If I was to apply to the states, I'd definitely aim for the best school I could get into.

[gangliocytoma]

Question: Would PT grades impact any application for medicine? and would completing PT give you any extra points in the admission process for having an MSc.?

[ralk]

ralk: Thanks a lot for the information and insights, that was pretty helpful! The Trump administration coming in and shaking things up is definitely a concern. As is the exchange rate.

 

I should mention that I'm currently attending Mac for PT, which is also a PBL program so I have first hand experience. I have learned that I can tolerate PBL but I certainly do not enjoy learning this way. I much prefer a more didactic, traditional style. Hence, the idea of completing 3 more years of PBL at Mac's med school seems daunting to me. I have not ruled Mac out but it's something I keep in mind.

 

I am hesitant to wait another year mainly because PT is a challenging program and well, every year counts to me (in terms of how old I'll be when I finish med school). My thoughts were something like this: If I get accepted into an American school this fall I can drop out of PT and possibly take the year off to make some money and do some travelling. PT is a great career so I would never drop out unless I was accepted to a med school. I realize this may sound silly to some but I do see benefit in getting away from school for a bit as a 20-something.

 

f011235813: That's a useful tool, thanks! I'll have to look more into how these top-tier schools consider Canadian applicants. If I was to apply to the states, I'd definitely aim for the best school I could get into.

 

Keep in mind that PBL will impact your in-class learning, not your clinical training. The latter is the far more important aspect and will take up a significant portion of those 3 years. You wouldn't be in PBL that whole time. Medical training is going to involve a lot of things you won't enjoy very much, and while it would be nice to have the best in-class learning experience possible, in-class learning just isn't that important in the grand scheme of things. Mac provides good clinical training. Given your preference for graduating sooner rather than later, Mac seems like it would be a good fit with its shorter training times. Considering the difference in cost between Mac and any American school will be on the order of hundreds of thousands of dollars (Meridian is correct, the total cost these days can get towards $400k), that seems like a very high price to pay just to avoid a year and a half of PBL.

[Rovereign]

My opinion on your situation: if you can afford the tuition and living expenses in the US, go for it, otherwise it will be a waste of time and money to apply. It is true that it will cost you approximately 400K. With the salary you will make it is manageable but not something that would be paid off in a few years, of course. Additionally, if you did apply and get accepted but decided afterwards to not attend for whatever reason, your application to the school(s) accepted (and I believe to all other US medical schools) will be flagged in subsequent applications (they have a system of knowing who got accepted but rejected the offer). So only apply if you are confident in attending if accepted. 

 

Your stats are good. Apply broadly (at least 10 schools) to a good mix of low, mid, and/or high tier schools. In the end, however, the ranking of these schools don't matter much. Certain competitive specialties at competitive hospitals/schools will consider your undergrad MD program, but even then your Step 1, grades, letters, etc. matter much more. So MD is MD, really. Just a matter of preferences. Yes, academically you have a good chance. But in the US, they care a great deal about your EC's, especially your clinical exp, research, volunteering, etc., as well as your personal statement and essays for each school. 

 

Your loans from the bank will be the same amount as here, so you will need additional loans from lines of credit (most likely) with a co-signer. 

 

ralk's points 3-5 cover the visa and practice situation well.

 

It wouldn't be such a bad idea for you to finish your PT school and then apply. This way you can apply to many Canadian and US schools with increased chances of getting in. In the end, don't rule out US MD if you have the financial means. There are schools in the US where I've applied to and interviewed at that I loved, particularly for their research opportunities. 

[GrindSeason]

Question: Would PT grades impact any application for medicine? and would completing PT give you any extra points in the admission process for having an MSc.?

 

Good question. I'm pretty certain med schools don't look at grades for graduate programs, only undergrad. I think having the MSc will give me a slight boost at a few schools (I know it does at Mac, for example).

 

Keep in mind that PBL will impact your in-class learning, not your clinical training. The latter is the far more important aspect and will take up a significant portion of those 3 years. You wouldn't be in PBL that whole time. Medical training is going to involve a lot of things you won't enjoy very much, and while it would be nice to have the best in-class learning experience possible, in-class learning just isn't that important in the grand scheme of things. Mac provides good clinical training. Given your preference for graduating sooner rather than later, Mac seems like it would be a good fit with its shorter training times. Considering the difference in cost between Mac and any American school will be on the order of hundreds of thousands of dollars (Meridian is correct, the total cost these days can get towards $400k), that seems like a very high price to pay just to avoid a year and a half of PBL.

 

You make some good points. The high cost of tuition at American schools is definitely not something I take lightly, especially since I would have to finance it mostly, if not entirely, through loans or financial aid of some sort. I guess I assumed that potentially earning more money practicing in the states for a few years after school and residency would make up for this in the long run. But as you mentioned, this may not always be the case, especially considering I don't know where (or if) I want to specialize yet. I may have been a bit hasty to discount Mac for the PBL because the three year program is definitely a perk. It's possible I'm somewhat biased as I'm doing research for my PBL class in between replying to these posts... But thanks for your opinions, you clearly know what you're talking about.

 

My opinion on your situation: if you can afford the tuition and living expenses in the US, go for it, otherwise it will be a waste of time and money to apply. It is true that it will cost you approximately 400K. With the salary you will make it is manageable but not something that would be paid off in a few years, of course. Additionally, if you did apply and get accepted but decided afterwards to not attend for whatever reason, your application to the school(s) accepted (and I believe to all other US medical schools) will be flagged in subsequent applications (they have a system of knowing who got accepted but rejected the offer). So only apply if you are confident in attending if accepted. 

 

Your stats are good. Apply broadly (at least 10 schools) to a good mix of low, mid, and/or high tier schools. In the end, however, the ranking of these schools don't matter much. Certain competitive specialties at competitive hospitals/schools will consider your undergrad MD program, but even then your Step 1, grades, letters, etc. matter much more. So MD is MD, really. Just a matter of preferences. Yes, academically you have a good chance. But in the US, they care a great deal about your EC's, especially your clinical exp, research, volunteering, etc., as well as your personal statement and essays for each school. 

 

Your loans from the bank will be the same amount as here, so you will need additional loans from lines of credit (most likely) with a co-signer. 

 

ralk's points 3-5 cover the visa and practice situation well.

 

It wouldn't be such a bad idea for you to finish your PT school and then apply. This way you can apply to many Canadian and US schools with increased chances of getting in. In the end, don't rule out US MD if you have the financial means. There are schools in the US where I've applied to and interviewed at that I loved, particularly for their research opportunities. 

 

Thanks for the reply. You're point about declining an acceptance is a good one, I hadn't considered that. Although I think if I go to the trouble of writing personal statements and paying the application fees I will be set on attending. At this point I don't have the financial means on my own. I am already in debt to pay for PT school so I would have to take out even more loans and have my parents as co-signers but I wouldn't want to put that kind of pressure on them either. I mean, the prestige associated with attending a top-tier US school is tempting but like you said, an MD is an MD. And making major life decisions based on prestige is never a good idea.

 

I see you were accepted to a US MD school. Just out of curiosity, which school? And what is your plan for paying the tuition? (No pressure to disclaim, just curious)

[Rovereign]

Thanks for the reply. You're point about declining an acceptance is a good one, I hadn't considered that. Although I think if I go to the trouble of writing personal statements and paying the application fees I will be set on attending. At this point I don't have the financial means on my own. I am already in debt to pay for PT school so I would have to take out even more loans and have my parents as co-signers but I wouldn't want to put that kind of pressure on them either. I mean, the prestige associated with attending a top-tier US school is tempting but like you said, an MD is an MD. And making major life decisions based on prestige is never a good idea.

 

I see you were accepted to a US MD school. Just out of curiosity, which school? And what is your plan for paying the tuition? (No pressure to disclaim, just curious)

 

No problem. So far in the cycle, Central Michigan University. If I end up matriculating there, I'll be taking out a loan from a bank, using some of my own savings from over the years (I took time off after graduating to work), and using a line of credit with my parents as co-signers.

[Organic Chemistry]

The other option is to wait one more year after you graduate, work, and apply the following cycle in Canada. Medicine is a long haul process anyway so that 1 year isn't likely to make or break you.

 

Also, as others have said, you should definitely consider Mac. It is a great school and the students there love it. Is not doing PBL worth a quarter million dollars. Only you can answer that.

If you can hold out for another year, you will definitely be competitive for several schools. I would suggest researching which Canadian schools are suitable for the next year before applying for American ones. 

[JohnGrisham]

Are you sure that you have to finish your PT degree before matriculating to all canadian MD schools? Id check with each school individually. I seem to recall that was only a rule at some schools, AND it was specifically for research based masters...but again, i don't know for sure, just an inkling.   

Double check. 

Probably just be easier to finish PT, as it will be helpful for medicine anyways, and then apply to Canadian schools.     

[Pippa756]

OP - you also might find this list helpful: like some schools are more disposed to their friends north of the border. 

[lulu95]

The other comments have pretty much covered the topic, I just wanted to add that one of the big differences between Canadian and US pre-meds the shadowing hours for ECs. Shadowing seems to be expected in the US while it's not as common for Canadians to shadow before starting med school. Your PT program probably gave you plenty of clinical hours, but PT work is still different from physicians, so not sure how that would be looked at.