Chances, Should I Apply?

[victorias]

I am really frustrated with my performance on the MCAT and can't decide what to do moving forward.

Should I apply this cycle? or retake the MCAT? or just give up?

 

 

cGPA = 3.6; strong upward trend
sGPA (BCMP) = 3.5

 

Graduate GPA - 4.0 

 

MCAT - 129/123/130/129 = 511

 

I just can't seem to figure out CARS/VR for the life of me. 

 

Do I have a chance at USMD? Should I apply this cycle? or retake the MCAT another time?

 

Thanks

[JohnGrisham]

Apply anyways to schools that don't have minimum cut-offs for sections.

Look into USDO schools, some may be more forgiving given overall 511 is good. 

[victorias]

Thanks! I am only interested in the MD option. I looked into the DO route, it is really not something for me. My ultimate goal is specialization and coming back to Canada to practice.

 

Is there any issue with being a reapplicant in the future, if I don't get in this cycle?

Maybe I can just apply to 5-10 schools this cycle, not really feeling confident to go all out on the applications.

 

Are all other parts of my application strong enough? Is there anything else I should do?

[JohnGrisham]

Thanks! I am only interested in the MD option. I looked into the DO route, it is really not something for me. My ultimate goal is specialization and coming back to Canada to practice.

 

Is there any issue with being a reapplicant in the future, if I don't get in this cycle?

Maybe I can just apply to 5-10 schools this cycle, not really feeling confident to go all out on the applications.

 

Are all other parts of my application strong enough? Is there anything else I should do?

Applications don't open till May/Juneish for August 2018 matriculation. 

 

If you're going to apply, you should apply broadly to all the schools that take Canadians, or don't apply at all.

[yych208]

Hi I'm on the same boat.

 

I'm a 4th year uni student with 3.85, less than 510 (low CARS), and pretty amazing ECs.

I posted earlier and someone made a list of USMD schools I could consider, but even then they said my chances are slim because my CARS was slow and overall MCAT score is not high enough to compensate. 

 

If I were you, I wouldn't apply to USMD schools this year, especially when you've previously had a record with low MCAT. I really sucks that our overly-qualified ECs can't compensate for low MCAT

 

______

The advice they gave me: to rewrite the MCAT (but I understand how hard that can be, especially if you're someone who just can't figure out CARS like me). 

______

But the advice I give you (slightly more unrealistic but worth giving it a try if you absolutely cannot CARS: 

1. Have you thought about Carribean schools? Yes, it's expensive, but the money won't be a big deal a few years down the road when you work as a doc. Yes, they don't do pass/fail and yes, you'll have to work very very hard to do amazing on board exams to come back to Canada, but is it harder than getting into a Canadian/US MD school in the first place? Unfortunately only you can answer that, as it depends on your academic ability. 

2. Apply to Canadian schools with no MCAT requirements (as far as I know, NOSM and Ottawa don't require it YET). If you want to take a step further, move to quebec, learn french, and apply to french schools + McGill (thats 4 more options without MCAT).

 

*Caribbean school coming back to Canada is hard, but as far as i know, it's not too difficult to go back to the US 

**Canadian schools are hard in their own way (arguably much MUCH harder than non-ivy league USMD schools though) and I'm sure you've noticed. Do some research before considering option #2

***Keep in mind that the grind doesn't stop here. There is also the MMI (used by most Canadian and some US schools). It usually takes applicants more than 1 try to do well on the MMI, so thats another extra year before you get into med. 

 

______

As I was typing that, I actually think you should just go to Caribbean school (again, if you absolutely decided that you can't CARS).

The tuition would be similar as that of USMD schools. You can probably get in this year (maybe even if you apply now!) and start in September.

It comes down to:

(# of years it takes you to land a residency after Caribbean MD) vs (# of years to ace CARS and possibly the MMI). 

Of course, I can't comment on the residency, as i'm only an undergrad. But I can surely tell you it'll probably take 3 years for the latter one (1 for CARS, 1 for application, and 1 for MMI)

 

Hope that was helpful

[JohnGrisham]

Terrible advice to just go straight to the carribean.

At least try and apply broadly to all USMD schools - and USDO schools before even considering foreign schools. 

You have nothing to lose by applying to US schools.

Please do not listen to the above poster, as the advice is patently false.

[JohnGrisham]

"***Keep in mind that the grind doesn't stop here. There is also the MMI (used by most Canadian and some US schools). It usually takes applicants more than 1 try to do well on the MMI, so thats another extra year before you get into med. "

Actually no, the mmi is just one part of the application. Not everyone who does not get accepted post interview is due to their interview skills. It is the whole package and alot of luck.

[victorias]

bearpuppy - I would love to hear your input.

 

I can give the MCAT another try if needed (that's essential since I can't apply to Canadian schools at all right now) but I don't want to jeopardize that if its going to make it even harder to get into USMD with another MCAT rewrite.

 

It is a huge financial loss to apply to 35 US schools with low MCAT though. I am open to giving it a try this cycle but I am not sure if applying to every single USMD school that accepts Canadians is a wise option.

[JohnGrisham]

bearpuppy - I would love to hear your input.

 

I can give the MCAT another try if needed (that's essential since I can't apply to Canadian schools at all right now) but I don't want to jeopardize that if its going to make it even harder to get into USMD with another MCAT rewrite.

 

It is a huge financial loss to apply to 35 US schools with low MCAT though. I am open to giving it a try this cycle but I am not sure if applying to every single USMD school that accepts Canadians is a wise option.

 

If applying is a financial loss, then you should make sure you can even afford a USMD education anyways - app costs are drops in the ocean compared to that. Be sure you have finances sorted before even considering applying abroad.

[yych208]

Terrible advice to just go straight to the carribean.

 

At least try and apply broadly to all USMD schools - and USDO schools before even considering foreign schools. 

 

You have nothing to lose by applying to US schools.

 

Please do not listen to the above poster, as the advice is patently false.

 

Okay not trying to be mean but you obviously can't read... He already said he's not considering USDO...

You are also wrong about being able to afford to attend USMD schools. Yes the application fee is nothing compared with the tuition, but once you get accepted you can get an incredible amount of loans from the bank as a med student. Keep in mind the tuition is also nothing compared with the amount you will be earning as a doc. 

 

Anyways, I'm not here to argue, neither am I here to promote Caribbean schools or encourage OP to go. 

I do agree with you that Caribbean school isn't the most ideal option, but it's not complete infeasible. I do know certain people went there and got a pretty decent residency spot (although he was the top student at the caribbean md school he attended).

 

Again, objectively speaking, as you already have pretty nice ECs and GPA (if the school takes into your grad GPA), taking the mcat again and acing CARS will be the best way to go. However, if you absolutely absolutely cannot do the CARS, you'll just waste time trying and applying with uncertainty. Caribbean is not the best option but i'm sure with your credentials, you can get in straight away. If you are also the very studious type who is confident that you'll do amazing in medical school, I really don't think the Caribbean is too bad of an option. 

[victorias]

Okay not trying to be mean but you obviously can't read... He already said he's not considering USDO...

You are also wrong about being able to afford to attend USMD schools. Yes the application fee is nothing compared with the tuition, but once you get accepted you can get an incredible amount of loans from the bank as a med student. Keep in mind the tuition is also nothing compared with the amount you will be earning as a doc. 

 

Anyways, I'm not here to argue, neither am I here to promote Caribbean schools or encourage OP to go. 

I do agree with you that Caribbean school isn't the most ideal option, but it's not complete infeasible. I do know certain people went there and got a pretty decent residency spot (although he was the top student at the caribbean md school he attended).

 

Again, objectively speaking, as you already have pretty nice ECs and GPA (if the school takes into your grad GPA), taking the mcat again and acing CARS will be the best way to go. However, if you absolutely absolutely cannot do the CARS, you'll just waste time trying and applying with uncertainty. Caribbean is not the best option but i'm sure with your credentials, you can get in straight away. If you are also the very studious type who is confident that you'll do amazing in medical school, I really don't think the Caribbean is too bad of an option. 

 

Thank you to both of you for your input.

 

Caribbean is not an option for me. I am a non traditional student with a young child - I really can't relocate to the Caribbean for 4 years of medical school with a young child and my husband. 

 

I am only interested in Canadian and US MD schools. I know that Canadian schools are off the table at the moment unless I retake with a better CARS score but if retaking would hurt my chances in the US, then I am not sure what to do at this point.

[rmorelan]

Thank you to both of you for your input.

 

Caribbean is not an option for me. I am a non traditional student with a young child - I really can't relocate to the Caribbean for 4 years of medical school with a young child and my husband. 

 

I am only interested in Canadian and US MD schools. I know that Canadian schools are off the table at the moment unless I retake with a better CARS score but if retaking would hurt my chances in the US, then I am not sure what to do at this point.

 

how many times have you taken the MCAT - you have to write it a number of times before the US really considers it a negative. 

[victorias]

If applying is a financial loss, then you should make sure you can even afford a USMD education anyways - app costs are drops in the ocean compared to that. Be sure you have finances sorted before even considering applying abroad.

Perhaps I wasn't clear - what I am thinking is that whether spending a few hundred dollars to first get a good MCAT score would be a better option than spending thousands on applications when we know that the chances are slim given the MCAT CARS score.

[victorias]

how many times have you taken the MCAT - you have to write it a number of times before the US really considers it a negative. 

 

I took it 3 times (twice for the old MCAT and once for the new MCAT)

 

MCAT (the roadblock of my life)

 

9/6/10/T (2012) - now expired score

9/6/8 (2014)

 

New MCAT - 129/123/130/129 = 511 (2017)

[rmorelan]

Ok so a ton of ECs, masters degree, and wGPA over past 3 years of 3.92 if my math is correct. 

 

any particular reason Ottawa for instance is off the table? 

 

what is your wGPA for TO (I know the MCAT is a barrier but let's get all the stuff on the table )

 

going through this one step at a time Why do you think the CARS is messing you up, what have you done so far etc - after all if we are considering redoing it I thin it is important to see what hasn't worked so far. 

 

we have a lot to work with here despite the early issues. 

[rmorelan]

(and I am not ignoring that this is an american application thread just going through things.)

[yych208]

Not sure if this will encourage/discourage you but just wanted to throw it out there.

You have actually made significant improvements in your MCAT scores! The improvements for CARS/verbal are slim but that for the sciences are definitely impressive.

Chances are, if you keep up with the studying (and, as morelan is trying to do, find out your problem with CARS and tackle it), you might eventually do very well on the MCAT.

On the other hand, however, your physical, biological, and psychological science are pretty high so you wanna make sure those sections don't drop or else it may backfire.

[victorias]

Thanks rmorelan!

 

GPA posted above is based on AMCAS scale.

 

I am an Ontario resident so if we are talking Canadian/Ontario schools, OMSAS GPA is

 

Year 1 = 3.18 (this was 10 years ago when I was young and clueless about my life/future)

Year 2 = 3.49

Year 3 = 3.81

Year 4 = 3.9

 

OMSAS cGPA = 3.59

 

Master's GPA = 3.86

 

Ottawa is off the table because wGPA is 3.83 (slightly below the cutoff for OOO applicants)

 

UofT wGPA = 3.82 (probably decent given I am a graduate applicant)

 

 

For MCAT CARS, honestly I don't know what exactly I am doing wrong. I have done so much practice including EK 101, TPR hyperlearning workbook, TPR ICC book, took the TPR in class prep course for my attempts on the old MCAT, Kaplan, Nextstep etc.

 

Attempt 1 (2012) = took in the summer during grad school. I took the TPR in class prep course and only used TPR and AAMC materials to prep. I was working in the lab full time running experiments and writing my papers, went to TPR class in the evenings (6-9pm) and took FL's on weekends. I took 2 weeks off before test day and focused on practice. My VR score was low on practice and I did all the practice I could but no significant improvement was made in my scores. When I took the MCAT, I ran out of time and had to guess on the last VR passage.

 

Attempt 2 (2014) = took in the summer after graduating with my Masters degree, spent 2 months prepping by myself and did lots of practice. My practice VR scores were not improving, the highest I got on AAMC practice tests was a 9. At the back of my mind, I really wanted to get the MCAT done with before the new MCAT came out. When taking this MCAT, I had a panic attack due to all the anxiety building up from my VR failures that I even ended up doing worse on the bio section.

 

Recent attempt - took the new MCAT in January 2017 and just got my score back. This time, I went all out on studying and my science scores have improved significantly. I am working full time with a young family so I spent 10 months (I know this is a long time but with a full time job and family commitments, I needed that time to study). I did extensive content review, read all the EK and Kaplan books, took extensive notes, made flashcards (anki, quizlet, handmade flashcards), watched all khan videos and other youtube videos - this is something I didn't do before but found that this style of learning works well for me. Took the month of January off from work and practiced as much as I could. I used Kaplan, TPR, Nextstep, AAMC practice materials. I completed 12 full length practice tests. As you can see, I used all the possible resources and study methods out there.

 

My CARS score was consistently my weakest section on the practice tests (ranging from 123-128). I did few passages almost everyday for about 3 months and in January, I was regularly taking full length tests. I also spent months reading tons of articles from the Economist - when reading these articles, I focused on active reading - focusing and highlighting key words, making sure to understand the main point, keeping track of the differing opinions presented in the articles etc. I find that I am able to get the main idea questions right but I am having trouble with understanding and interpreting the question stems and answer choices. I have never felt confident after completing a CARS section so I had no idea what to think after I took the real test and waited for the scores. Honestly, going into the test, I knew CARS is my weakness and I knew that 130 for Western is probably not a reasonable goal. So my goal was to get 126-127, I know that this is on the low side but it would have allowed me to apply with some degree of certainty to USMD schools, UofT, Mac and Queens. Clearly, I was not able to meet this goal.

 

During the test, I took notes where I wrote down a couple of words after reading each paragraph, formulated the main idea in my mind at the end and moved onto the questions. I rarely went back to my notes when answering questions but this helped me with anxiety and kept me focused on the passage.

 

In hindsight, I didn't sit down with a timer to do 9 CARS passages every single day for a few months. I did 3-5 passages/day on most days, keeping time in mind but not forcing myself with the timer, I did whole 9 passages when doing FL's. I went through my mistakes and read the solutions for all the questions, focusing on the ones I guessed on or got wrong. I made notes of the mistakes and reasoning in the margins of the printed practice passages but did not keep a log book for errors. So perhaps keeping a log book of errors and doing 9 passages with a timer every single day is something I need to do. Its just hard to stick to doing this when I keep making mistakes and feel confused with the questions.

 

I know that when I took the MCATs, I had other commitments like grad school or work that I did not 100% spend my time on the MCAT. Right now, if I were to retake, I will still be continuing to work full time. I can't quit my job to study for the MCAT and honestly I don't know if that would help with my CARS score anyways. My office is pretty slow paced so I can study at work (my boss doesn't mind) and I can take a couple of weeks off if needed. 

Sorry for the long post. I am just trying to get all the info/facts on the table. I am by no means trying to make any excuses or justifying my poor MCAT stats. I am just objectively looking back at what I did wrong so that I can hopefully find a way to move forward.

 

If there is any further information that is missing here, let me know. 

 

 

Or if there is a shot at USMD, I could apply to ~15 schools (low to mid tier) super early this cycle and continue to practice on CARS since that is essential for Canada. I don't think I will be able to retake and have the score back by June for the US cycle. But if my practice scores improve, I can retake in August in time for Canadian cycle and update the US schools of the retake. I honestly don't know what to do at this point. 

 

I am open to options and if there is anything else I can do to improve my application, I am open to that too.

 

rmorelan - If there is any other weakness in my application that you spot, l am open to doing whatever is feasible and in my power to improve. Obviously I can't go back and redo my GPA but if there is something else that is doable, I am open to that. I really hope to be able to apply this cycle but since I have waited this long, what the heck, I can wait out another year if that is necessary and do whatever it takes to improve. I just hate to see 10 years of my life devoted to this dream go down the drain just because of the low CARS score.

[JohnGrisham]

OP, if you are committed to improving CARS with another attempt, then i suggest continuing to work and building up your ECs while retaking the MCAT and NOT applying USMD this upcoming cycle for 2018 start.  If and when you reach your last attempt at the MCAT, THEN apply to the US, and apply to all of the USMDs that are canadian friendly. It is alot of work and effort to apply via AMCAS, and no point spreading yourself out thin.   If you are going to apply to the US, it just makes more sense to apply all out and in one shot go where you are focused in on things.

So, take the next months or year etc to improve your MCAT even further - but like others have said evaluate first WHY you are scoring low on CARs, and see what you can do to improve - without losing your high scores in other sections.  Then apply to Canadian schools, and then as well apply to USMD schools May 2018 for August 2019 entrance, and hope for the best.

[victorias]

OP, if you are committed to improving CARS with another attempt, then i suggest continuing to work and building up your ECs while retaking the MCAT and NOT applying USMD this upcoming cycle for 2018 start.  If and when you reach your last attempt at the MCAT, THEN apply to the US, and apply to all of the USMDs that are canadian friendly. It is alot of work and effort to apply via AMCAS, and no point spreading yourself out thin.   If you are going to apply to the US, it just makes more sense to apply all out and in one shot go where you are focused in on things.

 

So, take the next months or year etc to improve your MCAT even further - but like others have said evaluate first WHY you are scoring low on CARs, and see what you can do to improve - without losing your high scores in other sections.  Then apply to Canadian schools, and then as well apply to USMD schools May 2018 for August 2019 entrance, and hope for the best.

Thank you! This is a tough decision - retake is required for Canadian schools but might hurt me for US schools. I am really confused on what to do.

 

Or is there a list of schools that I can apply to this cycle and look into retake if I don't get in? I haven't decided either way yet, I am just trying to get all the feasible options on the table.  

 

Here is a list I put together of schools that accept Canadians but applying to all of these is probably not a wise step.

 

John Hopkins*

Harvard*

Washington U

Perelman - UPenn

Vanderbilt*

Stanford*

Yale*

Baylor

Northwestern

Mount Sinai*

U Pitts

Weill Cornell*

Mayo

Columbia

Albert Einstein

St Louis

U of Virginia

Duke

U of Wisconsin

Penn State

Emory

Case Western

Stony Brook

Wayne State

Boston U

George Washington - looks at subscores

Thomas Jefferson

Dartmouth

State U of New York

Virginia Commonwealth

Central Michigan

New York Med College

U of Kentucky

Chicago - Rosalind

Georgetown

USC - Greenville

Michigan State

 

*long shot due to stats - definitely not worth applying here

[JohnGrisham]

Pull off all the asterisks, unless you have money to blow. 

Throw in Oakland (OUWB), they regularly take lots of Canadians. Add meharry if you have strong community service(don't be fooled, i personally know 3 very white people who interviewed there.), and then i'll let others post where they have had luck with this cycle.

Filter through posts in this subforum, plenty of lists.

 

[AAAmeds]

Thank you! This is a tough decision - retake is required for Canadian schools but might hurt me for US schools. I am really confused on what to do.

 

Or is there a list of schools that I can apply to this cycle and look into retake if I don't get in? I haven't decided either way yet, I am just trying to get all the feasible options on the table.  

 

Here is a list I put together of schools that accept Canadians but applying to all of these is probably not a wise step.

 

John Hopkins*

Harvard*

Washington U

Perelman - UPenn

Vanderbilt*

Stanford*

Yale*

Baylor

Northwestern

Mount Sinai*

U Pitts

Weill Cornell*

Mayo

Columbia

Albert Einstein

St Louis

U of Virginia

Duke

U of Wisconsin

Penn State

Emory

Case Western

Stony Brook

Wayne State

Boston U

George Washington - looks at subscores

Thomas Jefferson

Dartmouth

State U of New York

Virginia Commonwealth

Central Michigan

New York Med College

U of Kentucky

Chicago - Rosalind

Georgetown

USC - Greenville

Michigan State

 

*long shot due to stats - definitely not worth applying here

One quick note is that don't forget about OUWB (Oakland University William Beaumont School of Medicine). That's the one school that I have received an acceptance offer from so far. (George Washington and Virginia Commonwealth interview - pending results).

Good Luck OP!!!

[victorias]

One quick note is that don't forget about OUWB (Oakland University William Beaumont School of Medicine). That's the one school that I have received an acceptance offer from so far. (George Washington and Virginia Commonwealth interview - pending results).

Good Luck OP!!!

Do you mind sharing your stats, especially MCAT score?

 

Thanks

[AAAmeds]

Do you mind sharing your stats, especially MCAT score?

 

Thanks

Yes for sure. GPA 3.95+ and mcat 13/8/13

[victorias]

Yes for sure. GPA 3.95+ and mcat 13/8/13

Thanks! Congrats on the acceptance!!!