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Neurology Salary?


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#1 scaredofthedark

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 04:39 PM

Hi guys,

 

I was told a couple weeks ago that in Ontario, the mean gross billings for neurologists is actually lower than that of family doctors.

 

 I was quite surprised by this, and since I'm very interested in neurology as a profession I just wanted to see if I could get some clarification about how much they actually make.

 

Thanks so much,

scared



#2 ralk

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 05:52 PM

Hi guys,

 

I was told a couple weeks ago that in Ontario, the mean gross billings for neurologists is actually lower than that of family doctors.

 

 I was quite surprised by this, and since I'm very interested in neurology as a profession I just wanted to see if I could get some clarification about how much they actually make.

 

Thanks so much,

scared

 

The CMA profiles is a good place to start - here's Neurology's. Overall a Neurologist's income is similar if not better than the typical FM doc. 


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#3 rmorelan

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 06:45 PM

I am not an neurologist - but the overhead is quite a bit less I thought as well(?)

 

no doubt neurologist earn a lower amount compared to other similar specialties. I have been told some reasons why that is the case but it still doesn't make a lot of sense to me on a system's level. 


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#4 Edict

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 08:22 PM

I am not an neurologist - but the overhead is quite a bit less I thought as well(?)

 

no doubt neurologist earn a lower amount compared to other similar specialties. I have been told some reasons why that is the case but it still doesn't make a lot of sense to me on a system's level. 

 

If neurologists could actually treat stuff maybe their incomes would improve...  ;)


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#5 rmorelan

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 08:26 PM

If neurologists could actually treat stuff maybe their incomes would improve...  ;)

 

(ooooooooooooooo......)

 

but in seriousness that is exactly the problem - the government doesn't like to pay for things that don't somehow END the problem or lead to it ending. Chronic management of things is not their style. Not logical in all cases, not logical at all.  


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#6 Blinkbest

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 09:36 PM

(ooooooooooooooo......)
 
but in seriousness that is exactly the problem - the government doesn't like to pay for things that don't somehow END the problem or lead to it ending. Chronic management of things is not their style. Not logical in all cases, not logical at all.


Instead of putting more and more money into specialized treatment, they would reach their goal of "ending problems" by focusing on prevention and firts line treatment aka making fm more attracting for med students!
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#7 Let'sGo1990

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 04:30 AM

The pay is not great for general outpatient Neurology. That is, in large part due to the length of the neuro physical exam and the patient population they deal with. Often times, those patients are presenting with issues that cannot be addressed in 10 minutes. On top of that, they have loads of elderly patients, who tend to have social issues such as failure to cope, caregiver fatigue, dementia, etc. going on. 

 

That said, certain sub specialties and procedures within Neurology can pay decently from what I hear. 

 

Botox for dystonias, Parkinsons patients, and headaches, EMGs, NCS, neurocritical care,  and sleep medicine all pay well. Beware, however, that you may find it difficult to establish the required patient population to appreciably boost your income via botox. Unfortunately, I don't believe that OHIP covers botox injections for headaches. There is a private market for this however. The neurocritical care and sleep medicine job markets are saturated. Not sure about EMG/NCS.  

 

In the states, there are Neurologists who practice interventional pain, although that is dominated by Anaesthesia in Canada. I don't imagine it would be impossible to land a fellowship for that in Canada.

 

Interventional neuroradiology is ~20-25% completed by Neurologists in the states. The remaining 70-75% of the field is split between Neurosurgery and Radiology, with Neurosurgery taking the larger portion of that pie. That, too, pays quite well. I think there are a couple of Neurologists practicing this in Canada now. 

 

That said, these will all require 2 year fellowships AFAIK. There are better paths to money out there. 



#8 rmorelan

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 07:08 AM

The pay is not great for general outpatient Neurology. That is, in large part due to the length of the neuro physical exam and the patient population they deal with. Often times, those patients are presenting with issues that cannot be addressed in 10 minutes. On top of that, they have loads of elderly patients, who tend to have social issues such as failure to cope, caregiver fatigue, dementia, etc. going on. 

 

That said, certain sub specialties and procedures within Neurology can pay decently from what I hear. 

 

Botox for dystonias, Parkinsons patients, and headaches, EMGs, NCS, neurocritical care,  and sleep medicine all pay well. Beware, however, that you may find it difficult to establish the required patient population to appreciably boost your income via botox. Unfortunately, I don't believe that OHIP covers botox injections for headaches. There is a private market for this however. The neurocritical care and sleep medicine job markets are saturated. Not sure about EMG/NCS.  

 

In the states, there are Neurologists who practice interventional pain, although that is dominated by Anaesthesia in Canada. I don't imagine it would be impossible to land a fellowship for that in Canada.

 

Interventional neuroradiology is ~20-25% completed by Neurologists in the states. The remaining 70-75% of the field is split between Neurosurgery and Radiology, with Neurosurgery taking the larger portion of that pie. That, too, pays quite well. I think there are a couple of Neurologists practicing this in Canada now. 

 

That said, these will all require 2 year fellowships AFAIK. There are better paths to money out there. 

 

there are 2 neurologist practicing neurointerventional in Canada last time I looked. Not very popular in canada as it doesn't pay particularly well and of course the hours are terrible. Still interesting work :) 

 

In Canada at least most of that is still done by radiologists. 


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More than machinery we need humanity.
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#9 NLengr

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 05:42 PM

The pay is not great for general outpatient Neurology. That is, in large part due to the length of the neuro physical exam and the patient population they deal with. Often times, those patients are presenting with issues that cannot be addressed in 10 minutes. On top of that, they have loads of elderly patients, who tend to have social issues such as failure to cope, caregiver fatigue, dementia, etc. going on.

That said, certain sub specialties and procedures within Neurology can pay decently from what I hear.

Botox for dystonias, Parkinsons patients, and headaches, EMGs, NCS, neurocritical care, and sleep medicine all pay well. Beware, however, that you may find it difficult to establish the required patient population to appreciably boost your income via botox. Unfortunately, I don't believe that OHIP covers botox injections for headaches. There is a private market for this however. The neurocritical care and sleep medicine job markets are saturated. Not sure about EMG/NCS.

In the states, there are Neurologists who practice interventional pain, although that is dominated by Anaesthesia in Canada. I don't imagine it would be impossible to land a fellowship for that in Canada.

Interventional neuroradiology is ~20-25% completed by Neurologists in the states. The remaining 70-75% of the field is split between Neurosurgery and Radiology, with Neurosurgery taking the larger portion of that pie. That, too, pays quite well. I think there are a couple of Neurologists practicing this in Canada now.

That said, these will all require 2 year fellowships AFAIK. There are better paths to money out there.


Neurosurg is smart. They're avoiding the mistakes Cardiac Surgery made.

#10 rmorelan

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 08:31 PM

Neurosurg is smart. They're avoiding the mistakes Cardiac Surgery made.

 

in fairness it is easier to be smart when you have Cardiac Surgery as a shining example of what happens when you don't be proactive about things. 


Our knowledge has made us cynical.
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We think too much and feel too little.
More than machinery we need humanity.
More than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness.
Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost.
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#11 PhD2MD

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 04:33 PM

Does anyone know how IMEs/medicolegal plays into this? Physiatry has similar post-overhead income, but IMEs can bring in more than your clinical work. Is the same true for neuro? Is IME work common/abundant for neuro?


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#12 PhD2MD

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Posted 31 March 2017 - 02:01 PM

Does anyone know how IMEs/medicolegal plays into this? Physiatry has similar post-overhead income, but IMEs can bring in more than your clinical work. Is the same true for neuro? Is IME work common/abundant for neuro?

Bump


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#13 Let'sGo1990

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 08:01 PM

I don't know how common medicolegal work is in Neurology, but it's possible AFAIK. I have heard of one neurologist who makes a killing doing medicolegal stuff. That individual has largely abandoned clinical practice. I don't know the details, just something I heard word of mouth. 

 

Neurology is a very academic and research oriented specialty. I think ~50 percent of all neurologists in canada work in academic centres. Given that, I don't think the type of person who would become a neurologist is likely to be interested in stuff like medicolegal work, which is why you don't hear about it often. 

 

But it seems like the opportunities exist.  



#14 Let'sGo1990

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 08:04 PM

there are 2 neurologist practicing neurointerventional in Canada last time I looked. Not very popular in canada as it doesn't pay particularly well and of course the hours are terrible. Still interesting work :)

 

In Canada at least most of that is still done by radiologists. 

 

I did not know that. I incorrectly assumed that because neurointerventional procedures pay well in the states, they must pay well in Canada. I stand corrected. :P



#15 PhD2MD

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 03:55 PM

Can neurology residents moonlight?


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#16 toastman

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 05:45 PM

I don't know how common medicolegal work is in Neurology, but it's possible AFAIK. I have heard of one neurologist who makes a killing doing medicolegal stuff. That individual has largely abandoned clinical practice. I don't know the details, just something I heard word of mouth. 

 

Neurology is a very academic and research oriented specialty. I think ~50 percent of all neurologists in canada work in academic centres. Given that, I don't think the type of person who would become a neurologist is likely to be interested in stuff like medicolegal work, which is why you don't hear about it often. 

 

But it seems like the opportunities exist.  

A family member does this. Runs a consult clinic a couple times a month, the rest is doing medicolegal work. Lets just say their garage is amazing. 



#17 PhD2MD

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 09:18 PM

A family member does this. Runs a consult clinic a couple times a month, the rest is doing medicolegal work. Lets just say their garage is amazing. 

Anyone know if he's 1 in 1000, or if it's a readily accessible to the average neurologist who wants to do it for only a few days a month?


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#18 rmorelan

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 11:43 PM

I did not know that. I incorrectly assumed that because neurointerventional procedures pay well in the states, they must pay well in Canada. I stand corrected. :P

 

Yeah ha, you would think it would pay well - I mean it is a kind of brain surgery effectively to reverse under hi stress and short time constraints a stroke - often at 3am. Cannot think of any reason that should be paid so much less than me slurping a tea while reading a CT (the visceral organs and GI system are unremarkable....slurp.....the osseous structures and body wall soft tissues are within normal limits.....slurp.....Impression: No acute abdominal/pelvic pathology.....powerscribe NEXT......)


Our knowledge has made us cynical.
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We think too much and feel too little.
More than machinery we need humanity.
More than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness.
Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost.
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#19 rmorelan

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 11:44 PM

Anyone know if he's 1 in 1000, or if it's a readily accessible to the average neurologist who wants to do it for only a few days a month?

 

don't think there are too many people doing it, no?


Our knowledge has made us cynical.
Our cleverness, hard and unkind.
We think too much and feel too little.
More than machinery we need humanity.
More than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness.
Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost.
-
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#20 toastman

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 01:33 AM

Yeah not alot of people are doing it. i could see it being hard/really not interesting for someone that doesnt really have an interest in law or litigation.






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