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Do You Think I Should Apply For Md/phd Next Schedule?


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Topic Correction: 

Do You Think I Should Apply For Md/phd Next Cycle?


Hey everyone, I'm only going to keep this brief. Current 4th year student looking to apply to the MD/PhD program, however, I'm afraid that my research productivity may be too low compare to grad students who apply. It seems that having a first author pub would increase your chances, however, I don't got one unfortunately. Would you guys recommend a masters instead in this case?
 

GPA

cGPA: 3.64 (currently) - finishing up final term of undergrad (looking like 4.0) -->  raises my cGPA to 3.68
wGPA predicted: Queens: 3.97

wGPA predicted: Western: 3.97

wGPA predicted: Ottawa: 3.92
wGPA predicted: UofT: ~ 3.86


MCAT

Rewriting this summer (CARs was < 125)

 

Research

Research Assistant - 1 year and counting

Undergrad thesis (unpublished)

Review paper (unpublished)

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I agree with everyone above.

I can't say that I had no pubs going into the interview, but I can say that if it is something you truly want you should apply and see how it goes. They will always let you know if you got into MD/PhD early on and if you didn't get in, you would get a shot at the MD, unless the school gives separate interview invites for the two like McMaster.

 

Just letting you know that a MD/PhD is a big commitment. You will spend 7-9 years in medical school and will start your residency in your late 20's/early 30's when everyone else is finishing their residency or already practicing as attendings. I can most definitely say, compared to the states, the MD/PhD programs in Canada are really not worth it. In the states, MD/PhD's graduate with no debt related to their schooling because of continuous financial support (in both their PhD and MD).

 

But as you probably figured, the MD/PhD admissions is really a black box sometimes. You don't know how many applicants apply for each school's program, how many they interview, how many they accept in the first round of offers, and how many are waitlisted.

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MD/PhD is not worth it. Delays getting a salary by 3-5 years. If you want to get a PhD get one in residency where you can be paid a resident's salary and benefits. 

 

 

Well I wouldn't say it's not worth it... I think it all depends on what you want out of your career and life. Most physicians, med students, and residents who have no interest in a PhD think the way you do, a PhD is a PhD. But for academics and researchers, where you get your PhD, what research training you receive, and who you trained under is just as important as where you do your clinical training. 

 

The primary focus of residency is clinical training, and quality of research training is a VERY small aspect. Royal College doesn't care about your abilities to publish papers and abilities to be an independent researcher. They just want residents to tick off that "research component" check box as a part of their residency training. And in choosing residencies is very diverse. You may undergo training at a smaller institution that leaves you confident and proficient in doing the bread & butters, but give you less experience in the "bigger" or "rarer" cases/patient disease managements because they don't see many. Alternatively, you may also go to a bigger institution where there are tons of bigger and rarer cases, but they give you the bare minimum hands-on training. Which training is better is very subjective and a personal decision.

 

Similarly, imagine that a PhD is exactly like residency but for research training. You may end up doing your entire PhD with a supervisor/principal investigator who is very world renowned, but gives you no freedom to pursue your own ideas related to their expertise. You may also end up doing your PhD with someone who gives you all the freedom in the world, but struggles to be a groundbreaking researcher themselves. You may end up doing your entire PhD with someone who's near retirement and has lost that "fire" to be productive in their researcher. You may end up doing your PhD with someone who's a young researcher on the rise. Like residency, it depends on what type of training the trainee wants in research.

 

It is often hard to find institution that offers both top notch research AND clinical training. They are usually known for one better than another. 

 

If you aspire to be a great clinician scientist and want to excel in both roles, like I do, then an MD/PhD is a great program. You can do your MD/PhD with any researcher (MD/PhD or a PhD) and receive great research training and choose to do your residency at another institution where they give you great clinical training.

 

But whether an "MD/PhD" is worth it, is a very very personal decision. I agree there are a lot of sacrifices to be made personally and financially. For many it's not worth it, but for me, it's honestly a dream come true.

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Well I wouldn't say it's not worth it... I think it all depends on what you want out of your career and life. Most physicians, med students, and residents who have no interest in a PhD think the way you do, a PhD is a PhD. But for academics and researchers, where you get your PhD, what research training you receive, and who you trained under is just as important as where you do your clinical training. 

 

The primary focus of residency is clinical training, and quality of research training is a VERY small aspect. Royal College doesn't care about your abilities to publish papers and abilities to be an independent researcher. They just want residents to tick off that "research component" check box as a part of their residency training. And in choosing residencies is very diverse. You may undergo training at a smaller institution that leaves you confident and proficient in doing the bread & butters, but give you less experience in the "bigger" or "rarer" cases/patient disease managements because they don't see many. Alternatively, you may also go to a bigger institution where there are tons of bigger and rarer cases, but they give you the bare minimum hands-on training. Which training is better is very subjective and a personal decision.

 

Similarly, imagine that a PhD is exactly like residency but for research training. You may end up doing your entire PhD with a supervisor/principal investigator who is very world renowned, but gives you no freedom to pursue your own ideas related to their expertise. You may also end up doing your PhD with someone who gives you all the freedom in the world, but struggles to be a groundbreaking researcher themselves. You may end up doing your entire PhD with someone who's near retirement and has lost that "fire" to be productive in their researcher. You may end up doing your PhD with someone who's a young researcher on the rise. Like residency, it depends on what type of training the trainee wants in research.

 

It is often hard to find institution that offers both top notch research AND clinical training. They are usually known for one better than another. 

 

If you aspire to be a great clinician scientist and want to excel in both roles, like I do, then an MD/PhD is a great program. You can do your MD/PhD with any researcher (MD/PhD or a PhD) and receive great research training and choose to do your residency at another institution where they give you great clinical training.

 

But whether an "MD/PhD" is worth it, is a very very personal decision. I agree there are a lot of sacrifices to be made personally and financially. For many it's not worth it, but for me, it's honestly a dream come true.

 

Wouldn't your PhD be more relevant to your career when you are in residency vs medical school.

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Wouldn't your PhD be more relevant to your career when you are in residency vs medical school.

Possibly, but a PhD gives you a skill set that is broad and fairly transferable.  I think the most important goal of research training is to develop your mastery of the scientific process, not necessarily make you an expert in one very niche field.  Anecdotally, I find that the vast majority of MD/PhD students within my institute match to areas related to their PhD (the exception being those doing health policy/services type work, in which case they aren't locked into any one specialty).  Obviously there are those who are exceptions but even so, consider this:

 

If I'm doing a PhD with a cardiologist, but then match to OBGYN after medical school, my research training does not necessarily lose value.  I still know how to design and power a study.  I still know how to analyze and interpret data (after all, statistics are not specialty specific...).  I still know how to draft a manuscript.  Sure I may not initially have a commanding knowledge of the literature, but my PhD training has taught me how to properly survey said literature, identify the gaps in knowledge and ask the appropriate questions.

 

I certainly see the draw of doing a PhD in residency with relevance and salary being the two biggest factors.  I think I've addressed the relevancy issue.  With respect to salary, I think that's a fair point but I would argue that stopping your clinical training in the middle of your residency is much more disruptive than stopping it in the middle of medical school. 

 

Another point on finances, many MD/PhD programs have financial supports in place.  In Calgary, the program covers medical school tuition.  If you are externally funded through our provincial agency (which pays $32,000/year), after tuition payment you actually have a fair bit of money left over to sink into living expenses.  To that end, I will have zero to very minimal debt after graduation.  At the University of Toronto, their MD/PhD students get a stipend of $32,000/year (~14k of which will go to tuition fees).  So really, the financial sink isn't as bad as some other posters make it out to be.

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... I can most definitely say, compared to the states, the MD/PhD programs in Canada are really not worth it. In the states, MD/PhD's graduate with no debt related to their schooling because of continuous financial support (in both their PhD and MD)...

 

This is simply not true.  Most if not all Canadian MD/PhD programs have some form of financial assistance exclusive to MD/PhD students.  In many universities, the stipends are enough to offset tuition and leave a sizeable amount for living expenses (I've listed two examples above, others include UBC, UManitoba and McGill just to name a few.)

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Possibly, but a PhD gives you a skill set that is broad and fairly transferable.  I think the most important goal of research training is to develop your mastery of the scientific process, not necessarily make you an expert in one very niche field.  Anecdotally, I find that the vast majority of MD/PhD students within my institute match to areas related to their PhD (the exception being those doing health policy/services type work, in which case they aren't locked into any one specialty).  Obviously there are those who are exceptions but even so, consider this:

 

If I'm doing a PhD with a cardiologist, but then match to OBGYN after medical school, my research training does not necessarily lose value.  I still know how to design and power a study.  I still know how to analyze and interpret data (after all, statistics are not specialty specific...).  I still know how to draft a manuscript.  Sure I may not initially have a commanding knowledge of the literature, but my PhD training has taught me how to properly survey said literature, identify the gaps in knowledge and ask the appropriate questions.

 

I certainly see the draw of doing a PhD in residency with relevance and salary being the two biggest factors.  I think I've addressed the relevancy issue.  With respect to salary, I think that's a fair point but I would argue that stopping your clinical training in the middle of your residency is much more disruptive than stopping it in the middle of medical school. 

 

Another point on finances, many MD/PhD programs have financial supports in place.  In Calgary, the program covers medical school tuition.  If you are externally funded through our provincial agency (which pays $32,000/year), after tuition payment you actually have a fair bit of money left over to sink into living expenses.  To that end, I will have zero to very minimal debt after graduation.  At the University of Toronto, their MD/PhD students get a stipend of $32,000/year (~14k of which will go to tuition fees).  So really, the financial sink isn't as bad as some other posters make it out to be.

I see your point about the transferable skill set that a PhD would give, but say if a student has done substantial self-directed research during undergrad, then does that still hold true? I would only go down that road if one can honestly say that doing a PhD would be a personally rewarding and fun experience.

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I see your point about the transferable skill set that a PhD would give, but say if a student has done substantial self-directed research during undergrad, then does that still hold true? I would only go down that road if one can honestly say that doing a PhD would be a personally rewarding and fun experience.

If the individual did 3-4 years (8 hrs/day) of self-directed research during which they designed their own experiments, published (1 pub/year), presented at conferences to a professional audience, oversaw undergrad student projects (not always, but common in my lab) and managed to establish a meaningful mentorship network then yeah I suppose you might be able to forgo formal research training.  In my opinion, that route is not realistic.

I 100% agree that one should only pursue a PhD if they are interested in academic medicine - I am by no means advocating that everyone should do one or do one as a backdoor into medical school (is that even a thing?)  I am simply offering perspective into why doing a PhD during medical school is not as detrimental to your career development as some posts may suggest.

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