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Comparisons Between Campuses


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Hello everyone,

 

I am currently in the process of ranking the three campuses of MacMed, and I was wondering if I could get some insight into the following areas:

 

1) Opportunities and CaRMS matching:

  • How do the three campuses compare when it comes to research and shadowing opportunities?
  • How much will these differences ultimately affect residency matching? (I know it's a little bit early to worry about this right now, but I'd just like to be informed...)
  • Does your campus affect where you can do your electives?

 

2) Living Cost/ location

  • In Hamilton, student housing is approximately $400-$500 per month. Are the living costs comparable at the other two locations?
  • I likely won't be driving. Are there certain campuses where not having a car will pose difficulties?

 

Thanks in advance! :)

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From what I've seen in Waterloo (I live in London, my boyfriend lives in Waterloo), rent is pretty expensive. I could get a similar 1 bedroom apartment for $200 less in London than in Waterloo. This will all depend on what type of housing your looking for of course (roommates or by yourself). I'm not sure how this would compare to the other two Mac campuses. But I'm just putting in my two cents on real estate/rent prices in Waterloo haha

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Hello everyone,

 

I am currently in the process of ranking the three campuses of MacMed, and I was wondering if I could get some insight into the following areas:

 

1) Opportunities and CaRMS matching:

  • How do the three campuses compare when it comes to research and shadowing opportunities?
  • How much will these differences ultimately affect residency matching? (I know it's a little bit early to worry about this right now, but I'd just like to be informed...)
  • Does your campus affect where you can do your electives?

 

2) Living Cost/ location

  • In Hamilton, student housing is approximately $400-$500 per month. Are the living costs comparable at the other two locations?
  • I likely won't be driving. Are there certain campuses where not having a car will pose difficulties?

 

Thanks in advance! :)

Some good information in last year's discussion: http://forums.premed101.com/index.php?/topic/89924-any-questions-about-mcmaster-in-general-or-the-niagara-regional-campus/?hl=campus

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Research and shadowing will pose different difficulties at different campuses. Most research will be in Hamilton, but it may be easier to find an available preceptor at a satellite, for example. Shadowing opportunities are available everywhere. Typically each campus has the same match rate. Admin watches this very carefully and if it were to change there would be changes made to the program. You can do electives wherever you want. Hamilton can do electives in satellite and vice versa. Realistically you will do a home elective near your campus for convenience and most specialties are represented at the satellites

 

Cost of living is mostly the same, although realistically you will be looking at a lot more than 400-500 unless you have multiple roommates. Not driving is possible at any campus in pre-cerkship, but nigh impossible at any campus during clerkship. Even in Hamilton we have core rotations in Brantford, Burlington, Oakville, etc.

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Hello everyone,

 

I am currently in the process of ranking the three campuses of MacMed, and I was wondering if I could get some insight into the following areas:

 

1) Opportunities and CaRMS matching:

  • How do the three campuses compare when it comes to research and shadowing opportunities?
  • How much will these differences ultimately affect residency matching? (I know it's a little bit early to worry about this right now, but I'd just like to be informed...)
  • Does your campus affect where you can do your electives?

 

2) Living Cost/ location

  • In Hamilton, student housing is approximately $400-$500 per month. Are the living costs comparable at the other two locations?
  • I likely won't be driving. Are there certain campuses where not having a car will pose difficulties?

 

Thanks in advance! :)

 

 

1) I would say Hamilton definitely trumps the regional campuses regarding research opportunities. There's a lot more research opportunities in the main campus. I know of regional campus students who commute from their regional campus to do research in Hamilton. I don't think anyone knows if this results in match rate differences between the campuses, theres so much involved in determining match rates  (family med vs plastics applicants) that even if there was a difference it would be hard to know if its the campus that is holding someone back. Your campus doesn't affect where you can do visiting electives, but you do your core rotations in your home campus usually. 

 

One big annoying thing about regional campuses is they are often VC'ed so they don't get speakers and lecturers in person. This makes it difficult for people from regional campuses to get involved in discussions and being VCed definitely offers an inferior lecture experience than in person lectures (hamilton does know because we do get some lectures VC'ed just not many). In addition, VC often has problems at Mac including disconnections etc, and Hamilton campus students often feel bad for distant campus students. In clerkship some of the group discussions are VC'ed but mostly the Hamilton campus gets the true round table discussion experience.  

 

2) I can't speak to living costs but they are probably pretty similar. 

 

Not being able to drive will definitely make life more difficult for you in clerkship although there are people who have done it in Hamilton campus. Hamilton campus is the most friendly to someone without a car for sure. Regional campus students usually get a car at the beginning of first year, Hamilton campus students can usually put it off until clerkship. 

 

One issue with not having a car is if you need to round at 5:45am at the Jura and you don't live next to the Jura, i don't even know if you'd be able to bus there in time (i don't know if the buses even run that early) and if you were able to you'd have to get up really early which I can imagine being pretty rough. I think its probably pretty doable if you decided to Uber whenever you are placed at hospitals or locations that are difficult to bus to and you'll probably still save money in the long run. 

 

3) There are a few minor things that regional campuses get an advantage with, one of it is representation, some EC positions there are spots reserved for regional students and if you add it up it disproportionately represents the regional campuses. 

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Went to a regional campus at McMaster. I had a not great experience with my regional campus, specifically the clerkship. Significantly less teaching and some rotations (GIM, Gensx, OB/GYN and psych specifically) were absolute jokes that did not reflect what a real rotation would have. Its great if you want to chill but if you want teaching rank Hamilton first.

 

Also in theory video conferencing seems fine and equivalent, but its not. Most lecturers don't really involve the regional campuses and sometimes (a lot) when VC doesn't work they essentially are like too bad, sucks to do VC I'm still giving the lecture even though you cant hear and or see.

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Whoa! I am stunned reading some of the comments about the regional campuses.

I'm a Waterloo regional campus student and ranked WRC first for a lot of valid reasons.  I can't speak to the details of what clerkship is like because I'm only in my first year, but I'll chime in on other matters.

I was worried about the VC issue too - that I would feel at a distance from the action, that there would be technological problems, that people would talk over the speaker during lecture, etc... but I have found it to be totally fine.  Technology wise it's been nearly glitch-free... we also have someone on site right outside our lecture theatre and any time there's a problem, he's on it within literally a minute.  I have noticed that a good number of the lecturers make efforts to engage the regional learners, and people use their mics reliably so we aren't left out.  Also, let's be real, a lot of people don't even attend the lectures live and just watch the recordings later, lol.... That said, if you want to be there with a live speaker, perhaps go up and talk to them at the end, etc., Hamilton might be a better place for you.  The VC piece is only one (pretty minor) factor, in my opinion.

The real draw of the regional campuses is the fact that, because we aren't at big teaching centres, the learner to preceptor ratio is such that you are almost always working one on one with physicians, from the get-go.  In the bigger centres you are behind fellows, senior and junior residents, clerks, etc.  Whereas at the regional sites, you are first in line getting the hands-on experience.  A friend of mine helped deliver a baby by C section on a one-day elective.  I spent a day in emerg and was asked to sew up a patient's hand myself, among other things.  Staff other than my preceptor kept grabbing me to participate in other interesting cases.  This is reflected in most other students' stories of their clinical experiences too.

Another important feature of the regional campuses is that we have standardized patients (actors trained to be patients) available to us at every clinical skills session.  The whole time I was in Hamilton (where we all start for the first 3 months), we saw an SP one time.  Having SPs every week means we get to practice exams without worrying about the awkwardness of examining each other, and the SPs are trained actors with cases we have to figure out, which is great practice for real life (as well as the OSCEs).

We also have a really strong anatomy program at WRC (I can't speak for Niagara because I haven't attended anatomy there).  We have weekly rather than biweekly sessions, and an amazing anatomist who guides us through the sessions and gives us tips on the best ways to approach the specimens.  He has a more interactive approach that has made a big difference for my learning.  We also have our own cadaver at Waterloo, which we have been dissecting organ system by organ system.  This isn't something that Hamilton offers.  If anatomy is important to you, it's worth knowing that there are some real anatomy-related grievances among Hamilton students right now (which I also felt when I was in Hamilton).  It's really difficult to do anatomy in a self-directed way and only twice a month.

The final piece I would add is that we have our own facility here in Waterloo, custom-designed for us (and I believe the same is true of Niagara).  This means that all of our tutorials, clinical skills sessions, lectures, etc., occur in one building.  In Hamilton, you are likely to be travelling to different locations for your sessions (e.g., to a meeting room at Hamilton General or whatever is convenient for your preceptors), and the location can also change week to week.  It might sound minor but it can be taxing over time.  We also have great study space at the regional campuses, and a kitchen, gym, showers, etc. - so there's less bustling around on a given day, which makes life a bit easier.

It's absolutely true that each campus has its own strengths and weaknesses, but I just wanted to share another perspective on the regional campuses.  You definitely will NOT get a sub-par experience out here.

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Whoa! I am stunned reading some of the comments about the regional campuses.

I'm a Waterloo regional campus student and ranked WRC first for a lot of valid reasons.  I can't speak to the details of what clerkship is like because I'm only in my first year, but I'll chime in on other matters.

Most of the issues are related to Clerkship. Most of preclerkship is for the most part homogenous +/- VC and some other smaller things.

 

I was worried about the VC issue too - that I would feel at a distance from the action, that there would be technological problems, that people would talk over the speaker during lecture, etc... but I have found it to be totally fine.  Technology wise it's been nearly glitch-free... we also have someone on site right outside our lecture theatre and any time there's a problem, he's on it within literally a minute.  I have noticed that a good number of the lecturers make efforts to engage the regional learners, and people use their mics reliably so we aren't left out.  Also, let's be real, a lot of people don't even attend the lectures live and just watch the recordings later, lol.... That said, if you want to be there with a live speaker, perhaps go up and talk to them at the end, etc., Hamilton might be a better place for you.  The VC piece is only one (pretty minor) factor, in my opinion.

VC continues in clerkship teaching and this is mainly where the issues lie. Because they are much smaller groups, they will have more informal teaching that is VCed (which VC is not suited towards) or do drawings on the black boards and not the smartboards (which we cant see). 

 

The real draw of the regional campuses is the fact that, because we aren't at big teaching centres, the learner to preceptor ratio is such that you are almost always working one on one with physicians, from the get-go.  In the bigger centres you are behind fellows, senior and junior residents, clerks, etc.  Whereas at the regional sites, you are first in line getting the hands-on experience.  A friend of mine helped deliver a baby by C section on a one-day elective.  I spent a day in emerg and was asked to sew up a patient's hand myself, among other things.  Staff other than my preceptor kept grabbing me to participate in other interesting cases.  This is reflected in most other students' stories of their clinical experiences too.

You will get more procedures with some staff, I agree but don't discount the residents as a negative. Residents are excellent teachers who can help medical students understand what they need to know. I worked with a single resident in all of my clerkship on a single rotation. I also found that because there was not established learner culture, nurse will not page you/remember to involve you. On my OBGYN, the nurses would forget to page me for deliveries half the time and just page the staff, and the staff are not all that great about reminding residents.

 

Another important feature of the regional campuses is that we have standardized patients (actors trained to be patients) available to us at every clinical skills session.  The whole time I was in Hamilton (where we all start for the first 3 months), we saw an SP one time.  Having SPs every week means we get to practice exams without worrying about the awkwardness of examining each other, and the SPs are trained actors with cases we have to figure out, which is great practice for real life (as well as the OSCEs).

True. They did cap my class because we were using them to much near the end of the MFs.

 

We also have a really strong anatomy program at WRC (I can't speak for Niagara because I haven't attended anatomy there).  We have weekly rather than biweekly sessions, and an amazing anatomist who guides us through the sessions and gives us tips on the best ways to approach the specimens.  He has a more interactive approach that has made a big difference for my learning.  We also have our own cadaver at Waterloo, which we have been dissecting organ system by organ system.  This isn't something that Hamilton offers.  If anatomy is important to you, it's worth knowing that there are some real anatomy-related grievances among Hamilton students right now (which I also felt when I was in Hamilton).  It's really difficult to do anatomy in a self-directed way and only twice a month.

Anatomy is better at waterloo, but I wouldn't say it's amazing.

 

The final piece I would add is that we have our own facility here in Waterloo, custom-designed for us (and I believe the same is true of Niagara).  This means that all of our tutorials, clinical skills sessions, lectures, etc., occur in one building.  In Hamilton, you are likely to be travelling to different locations for your sessions (e.g., to a meeting room at Hamilton General or whatever is convenient for your preceptors), and the location can also change week to week.  It might sound minor but it can be taxing over time.  We also have great study space at the regional campuses, and a kitchen, gym, showers, etc. - so there's less bustling around on a given day, which makes life a bit easier.

This flips in clership, as for most rotations, you will be traveling much farther than hamilton students for clerkship rotations.

It's absolutely true that each campus has its own strengths and weaknesses, but I just wanted to share another perspective on the regional campuses.  You definitely will NOT get a sub-par experience out here.

Most of the negative aspects are in clerkship. Pre clerkship is nice and probably equivalent but clerkship is a big factor. Over my six weeks of Internal medicine, I only had the oppourtunity to do 3 consults. For other centers they can do more consults in a single night. I wasn't allowed to do call on some nights because "that staff doesn't take medical students". The CTU was a single physical ward, so if no patients were discharged, you couldn't admit any to CTU. There was also significantly less teaching on most rotations.

 

An MD from Canada is an MD, but clearly I'm not a fan of the regional campuses. One issue I find is no one ever talks about the negatives and only has flowery things to say about the regionals. I'm not the only one of my graduated campus that feels this way, but near the end we essentially are like "well we matched, so whatever".

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Regional student here - I would be happier if I was in Hamilton but at the end of the day you get what you get and you have to make the best of it. Probably one of the best things about Mac is that students are organized and talk to each other about issues and the admin actually take our feedback seriously, so if we get together and identify a problem, it'll be addressed in some way. Also, the regional campuses are much newer and are still developing into academic centres, so I anticipate things getting better for future classes.

 

Also bear in mind that if you get waitlisted, your preferences go out the window - you get whatever spot opens up next regardless of how you ranked that campus. So just remember you can't really control this - not to be a downer, I just feel like an important approach is to be open to making the best of whatever situation you end up in. 

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Wow, I had no clue that you only saw 3 consults on all of internal medicine. I would definitely agree with you on that point, on one day of call I often saw 4-5 consults and this was on general surgery, a service that doesn't even get as many consults.

 

I do agree that what I see as a clerk is that during our teaching sessions in clerkship, the staff has always been from Hamilton and the groups have always been quite small.

 

As someone who likes answering questions and the informal discussion, Hamilton students benefit a lot from being in person. We get a lot of chime ins from regional campus students who say they can't hear the questions that students are asking. In addition, we understand that it is a lot more intimidating to buzz in from VC than it is to answer a question in person when the staff is right there. We've had VC lectures before and I have at least found it much easier to zone out when the lecturer is not physically present and engaging you. 

 

I do believe that McMaster should work on the experience that regional students get in clerkship. One simple issue is that VC shouldn't bug out as much as it does since regional campuses have been around for a long time and yet sometimes things still go wrong. 

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Yeah, I have to say I'm a little surprised by what the regional students are saying about the clerkship experience. In the past, I have heard things that were the opposite-  that they get better quality letters since they work more 1 on 1 with preceptors, less fellows/residents ahead of them to impede the learning process....this is quite interesting for sure. 

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I think it's definitely a 2-sided issue - they (from what I hear) do typically get a better preceptor:learner ratio, more exposure to procedures that would be "reserved" for R1s here in Hamilton, and dedicated research coordinators (at least at NRC if I'm not mistaken). This is me speaking as a Hamilton campus student though.

 

However, this comes at the cost of: having to VC in (which 90% of the time goes off without a hitch, but there's always a chance of some technological goof-up), and less exposure to traditional "academic" centres throughout clerkship which can present a bit of a difficulty for some specialties or if you're looking to get well-known preceptors to write you references. That being said, I believe WRC and NRC matched decently well this year, and to some pretty competitive specialties as well (optho), so I think as long as you're driven, willing to work hard, and intelligent about elective planning you are not at any inherent disadvantage over the Hamilton students when it comes to CaRMS/learning opportunities etc. 

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