General questions for applying for FM electives

[lithp]

Hi there, I am a final year IMG medical student very interested in getting onto a FM residency in BC. I have some general questions for all of you, with respect to doing electives in FM:

1. How many different electives are recommended to do in advance of my application for FM residency? E.g. if I have only one reference from one elective I did in FM in Canada, does that suffice? Or should I really try to get two or three different electives in FM, so that I can potentially get 2 or 3 different references for applying for FM residencies?

2. How easy is it to actually get FM electives? As in how competitive is it?

3. How is a FM elective best organised? Like can you contact family physicians directly, or do you need to go through the usual quota system?

Thanks so much!

 

[bearded frog]

To answer your question you need to tell us this:

1. What are your residency goals?: A - UBC FM at all costs (or don't match), B - FM in Canada but preferably UBC, C - Residency in BC, prefer FM, D - Just match somewhere in Canada or US but prefer UBC FM.

2. What country are you going to medical school in? UBC only allows electives from specific schools form specific regions. (http://mdprogram.med.ubc.ca/visiting-student-elective-program/eligibility-criteria/international-schools/)

1. In general, for Canada, you should be doing as many electives as possible in the field and or region that you want to match to. Caveats if you want to increase your match odds by applying broadly, you'll have to distribute them accordingly.

2. Family is not too competitive as there are lots of locations but UBC is hard to get an elective at. For instance UBC is not accepting applications for 2017.

3. For UBC and most other Canadian schools you have to go through https://www.afmcstudentportal.ca/. Check the eligibility requirements to make sure you qualify. You generally won't be able to bypass the UBC system for an actual elective as for insurance and to do anything you need to be licensed as a student in BC which requires you to work through UBC. You may be able to "shadow" without going through UBC, and you may be able to find some physicians not academically affiliated who will bend the rules if you have connections, however you should try to work with someone academically affiliated so you can get a LOR from them.

[JohnGrisham]

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[lithp]

On 7/23/2017 at 9:26 AM, bearded frog said:

To answer your question you need to tell us this:

1. What are your residency goals?: A - UBC FM at all costs (or don't match), B - FM in Canada but preferably UBC, C - Residency in BC, prefer FM, D - Just match somewhere in Canada or US but prefer UBC FM.

2. What country are you going to medical school in? UBC only allows electives from specific schools form specific regions. (http://mdprogram.med.ubc.ca/visiting-student-elective-program/eligibility-criteria/international-schools/)

1. In general, for Canada, you should be doing as many electives as possible in the field and or region that you want to match to. Caveats if you want to increase your match odds by applying broadly, you'll have to distribute them accordingly.

2. Family is not too competitive as there are lots of locations but UBC is hard to get an elective at. For instance UBC is not accepting applications for 2017.

3. For UBC and most other Canadian schools you have to go through https://www.afmcstudentportal.ca/. Check the eligibility requirements to make sure you qualify. You generally won't be able to bypass the UBC system for an actual elective as for insurance and to do anything you need to be licensed as a student in BC which requires you to work through UBC. You may be able to "shadow" without going through UBC, and you may be able to find some physicians not academically affiliated who will bend the rules if you have connections, however you should try to work with someone academically affiliated so you can get a LOR from them.

 

 

Hi Bearded Frog, thanks for your reply. In answer to your questions, my residency goals are Family Medicine in BC (which I believe is easier to get into that any other speciality for IMGs). And also I attend school at one of the schools UBC is totally cool with, on that website you sent. 

When you say UBC is not accepting applications for family medicine electives in 2017, does that mean that they never took applications for it, or what? What exactly did you mean?

[JohnGrisham]

They mean that UBC is not taking any applications for FM electives for 2017. I.e. they have reached capacity.  Getting a FM elective in BC is difficult

 

UBC FM residency program for IMGs is very difficult to match to, so dont get your hopes up and make sure to apply broadly in Ontario and other provinces. Spread out your FM electives in central and Atlantic Canada too. So it looks like youre Willing to go wherever.

 

 

[lithp]

Thanks John Grisham. You mention that FM in BC is very hard to get into for IMGs... Is this anecdotal or is this from looking at specific CARMS data? Do you know what the stats are perchance? Thanks a bunch for your reply!

[Snowmen]

3 hours ago, lithp said:

Thanks John Grisham. You mention that FM in BC is very hard to get into for IMGs... Is this anecdotal or is this from looking at specific CARMS data? Do you know what the stats are perchance? Thanks a bunch for your reply!

Any specialty in any province will be extremly difficult to get into for an IMG. If you add the fact that FM is increasingly competitive and that many people desire to practice in BC, you get that competitiveness. It's basically the regular insane IMG competitiveness with added BC competitiveness.

[JohnGrisham]

6 hours ago, lithp said:

Thanks John Grisham. You mention that FM in BC is very hard to get into for IMGs... Is this anecdotal or is this from looking at specific CARMS data? Do you know what the stats are perchance? Thanks a bunch for your reply!

The St. Paul FM program, and IMG program especially is one of the most competitive FM programs and parrellels competitiveness of other big city programs of competitive specialties too.  Its in Downtown vancouver, has a large number of FM spots for IMGs etc. So naturally it is very competitive, especially so in the IMG pool

[JohnGrisham]

Hope you've realized that getting ANY spot in Canada as an IMG is very competitive, especially so in big cities.  Most of the IMG spots in CaRMS are FM in the first place, so "FM is less competitive" is a moot point in the IMG stream.

[lithp]

I see. Does this change if I'm willing to go to one of the 11 more rural/remote hubs to do my residency in BC? I don't need to be in downtown Vancouver...

[ralk]

1 hour ago, lithp said:

I see. Does this change if I'm willing to go to one of the 11 more rural/remote hubs to do my residency in BC? I don't need to be in downtown Vancouver...

Not really. For one, there aren't IMG spots in all the rural/remote hubs. Secondly, while the more rural spots will be slightly less competitive, they will still be very competitive. The overall match rate for IMGs, even for FM, is 20%. Recent grads and people who were Canadian citizens before starting medical school have higher rates, but still only in the 30-40% range. That match rate is almost certainly lower for those applying specifically to high-demand locations like BC.

You should be applying to all the BC locations if that's where you want to be. However, you should be applying pretty much everywhere else that takes IMGs for FM programs, because matching anywhere is less likely than winning a coin flip. If you get a preferred location, that's just a bonus.

[lithp]

12 hours ago, ralk said:

Not really. For one, there aren't IMG spots in all the rural/remote hubs. Secondly, while the more rural spots will be slightly less competitive, they will still be very competitive. The overall match rate for IMGs, even for FM, is 20%. Recent grads and people who were Canadian citizens before starting medical school have higher rates, but still only in the 30-40% range. That match rate is almost certainly lower for those applying specifically to high-demand locations like BC.

You should be applying to all the BC locations if that's where you want to be. However, you should be applying pretty much everywhere else that takes IMGs for FM programs, because matching anywhere is less likely than winning a coin flip. If you get a preferred location, that's just a bonus.

That's really good advice ralk, thanks. Not 100% sure how the matching process works, but can I apply to every province if I want? If so, does that cost me more, or require a crapload more paperwork? I'd be most keen on BC, Alberta, Quebec, Newfoundland.

[JohnGrisham]

7 hours ago, ralk said:

Not really. For one, there aren't IMG spots in all the rural/remote hubs. Secondly, while the more rural spots will be slightly less competitive, they will still be very competitive. The overall match rate for IMGs, even for FM, is 20%. Recent grads and people who were Canadian citizens before starting medical school have higher rates, but still only in the 30-40% range. That match rate is almost certainly lower for those applying specifically to high-demand locations like BC.

You should be applying to all the BC locations if that's where you want to be. However, you should be applying pretty much everywhere else that takes IMGs for FM programs, because matching anywhere is less likely than winning a coin flip. If you get a preferred location, that's just a bonus.

UBC typically has about 1000 applicants for its 50 IMG FM spots.  Sure some of that 1000 are not very competitive, but the vast majority are competitive and indistinguishable. 
 
Just to put into perspective. 

[JohnGrisham]

5 hours ago, lithp said:

That's really good advice ralk, thanks. Not 100% sure how the matching process works, but can I apply to every province if I want? If so, does that cost me more, or require a crapload more paperwork? I'd be most keen on BC, Alberta, Quebec (has to be McGill as my French is good but not fluent), Newfoundland.

If you don't mind me asking, are you a Canadian that went abroad for medicine, or a true foreign medical grad that gained PR or something and wants to Canada? It's good that you are asking these questions now,  better late then never - but you have a lot of work ahead of you to learn the process when you should have learned it far earlier in your medical training. 

I'd encourage you to use the search function and read through past threads to get a better idea, as many of your current questions, and questions you havent yet thought of have been answered. You may find it very helpful for context.

[ralk]

9 hours ago, lithp said:

That's really good advice ralk, thanks. Not 100% sure how the matching process works, but can I apply to every province if I want? If so, does that cost me more, or require a crapload more paperwork? I'd be most keen on BC, Alberta, Quebec (has to be McGill as my French is good but not fluent), Newfoundland.

This is the time to read through the full CaRMS explanation of the matching process for IMGs. Yes, you can apply to multiple provinces. Each school/program you apply to will come with its own additional costs and paperwork - but they're minor expenses compared to the difficulties of going unmatched. It's a little late in the game not to be understanding these basic points about doing residency in Canada, so please read through the CaRMS website thoroughly.

4 hours ago, JohnGrisham said:

UBC typically has about 1000 applicants for its 50 IMG FM spots.  Sure some of that 1000 are not very competitive, but the vast majority are competitive and indistinguishable. 
 
Just to put into perspective. 

Sounds about right. I'd expect those 1000 to be applying cross-country too, but yeah, not good odds either way.

[lithp]

Thanks again for all your replies. This decision to undertake residency in Canada only came recently. I am a Canadian PR. Gained PR during my med degree. Does this place me into a different category than someone who was already a Canadian citizen who went abroad for medical school?

[ralk]

1 minute ago, lithp said:

Thanks again for all your replies. This decision to undertake residency in Canada only came recently. I am a Canadian PR. Gained PR during my med degree. Does this place me into a different category than someone who was already a Canadian citizen who went abroad for medical school?

No difference on paper or in the general matching process. Canadian citizens who study medicine abroad do tend to match at higher rates that other IMG applicants though, for a variety of reasons that may or may not apply in your situation.

[JohnGrisham]

8 minutes ago, lithp said:

Thanks again for all your replies. This decision to undertake residency in Canada only came recently. I am a Canadian PR. Gained PR during my med degree. Does this place me into a different category than someone who was already a Canadian citizen who went abroad for medical school?

Where are you doing medical school?  I would look into doing residency in the US as well and then moving to Canada after that.

[lithp]

Ah yes, for example they don't tend to go do their degrees in Inner Mongolia etc (not dissing inner Mongolia, just trying to make a point). There are lots of other Canadian citizens/PRs in my med program. 

I am currently looking through the CARMS website, thanks for your suggestion.

Three more questions I was wanting to ask:

1. Can a reference be from an overseas doctor? If so, does it have any weight?

2. What is more important for references...quality or quantity? E.G. doing 4 x 2 week electives or getting 2 x 4 week electives?

3. Is it far preferable to do electives with (and thus get references from) a big-wig family doctor that has connections to a university medical program etc? Or is it fine to get one from a more generic family doctor whom you do an elective with?

[lithp]

22 minutes ago, JohnGrisham said:

Where are you doing medical school?  I would look into doing residency in the US as well and then moving to Canada after that.

Ireland

[bearded frog]

On 2017-07-27 at 5:00 PM, lithp said:

1. Can a reference be from an overseas doctor? If so, does it have any weight?

2. What is more important for references...quality or quantity? E.G. doing 4 x 2 week electives or getting 2 x 4 week electives?

3. Is it far preferable to do electives with (and thus get references from) a big-wig family doctor that has connections to a university medical program etc? Or is it fine to get one from a more generic family doctor whom you do an elective with?

1. Yes but significantly less than a letter from someone on that schools faculty, or another Canadian medical school faculty. Basically: LOR from that school > LOR from Canadian medical school affiliated physician > other.

2. You want a long enough elective that they can get to know you and your work and that you can get a LOR, longer than that is diminishing returns. IE if you have 8 weeks it might be better to do 2 weeks each of vancouver FM, Rural BC FM, Toronto, Western, (the other two programs with the most IMG spots), and get a letter from each that you would give to all schools. I only say do 2 ubc if you are really gunning Vancouver.

3. You should always try to get an elective with a doctor affiliated with the medical school. But any "above board" elective through the AFMC portal or directly through a medical school will set you up with one. It doesn't need to be with the program dicrector or anything though.

[lithp]

1 hour ago, bearded frog said:

1. Yes but significantly less than a letter from someone on that schools faculty, or another Canadian medical school faculty. Basically: LOR from that school > LOR from Canadian medical school affiliated physician > other.

2. You want a long enough elective that they can get to know you and your work and that you can get a LOR, longer than that is diminishing returns. IE if you have 8 weeks it might be better to do 2 weeks each of vancouver FM, Rural BC FM, Toronto, Western, (the other two programs with the most IMG spots), and get a letter from each that you would give to all schools. I only say do 2 ubc if you are really gunning Vancouver.

3. You should always try to get an elective with a doctor affiliated with the medical school. But any "above board" elective through the AFMC portal or directly through a medical school will set you up with one. It doesn't need to be with the program dicrector or anything though.

Cool, thank you bearded frog. How about if I personally know a family physician in BC who is happy to have me with them for an elective, but don't have any affiliation with UBC?

[JohnGrisham]

5 hours ago, lithp said:

Cool, thank you bearded frog. How about if I personally know a family physician in BC who is happy to have me with them for an elective, but don't have any affiliation with UBC?

Better than nothing. But if its not done through ubc it won't count as an official carms approved elective for the LOR. They can't put ubc on the letterhead.

[lithp]

5 hours ago, JohnGrisham said:

Better than nothing. But if its not done through ubc it won't count as an official carms approved elective for the LOR. They can't put ubc on the letterhead.

But now I'm confused. It seems like lots of people do rural FM electives, and I'm sure those aren't through UBC? So what's the point in doing those then, if you aren't gonna get a LOR?

[JohnGrisham]

1 hour ago, lithp said:

But now I'm confused. It seems like lots of people do rural FM electives, and I'm sure those aren't through UBC? So what's the point in doing those then, if you aren't gonna get a LOR?

Many rural doctors are still associated with UBC. UBC has teaching sites for FM across the province. But yes, some rural and some urban even, may not be associated with UBC or are not UBC sanctioned electives. These are common for IMGs but hold less value than something you get from the AFMC portal and is university sanctioned. Better than having nothing of course.