Average salary for fresh grad out of school?

[Coronaxtra]

Have any of you ever considered working in the states (whether that be during dental school or after)?

[Ostracized]

11 minutes ago, DDSER said:

Baller.

Not exactly.  I'm likely below average in terms of dentist income on a national level.  The fact that the owner of the practice likely earns less than me (I'm not his accountant but I can do my own rough math) is disheartening and makes me uncomfortable with practice ownership in my geographic area.  The office that I work in is very well established, and although the owner makes questionable business decisions he is a very good dentist who refers out very little.

[Clapton]

Am I the only one who's depressed about my future incomes now ? 

XD

[timets6]

7 minutes ago, Clapton said:

Am I the only one who's depressed about my future incomes now ? 

XD

Not depressed, but worried. 

Click herehttps://ndeb-bned.ca/en/resources/historical-pass-rates

Dentists can be certified in 4 ways in Canada: 

1. Graduates of Canadian DDS programs

2. Graduates of accredited Qualifying/Degree Completion programs

3. Graduates of accredited programs in the US, Ireland, New Zealand, and Australia

4. Individuals who successfully completed the Equivalency Process

The total of new dentists certified last year was 1008. These all specialize in teeth. 

 

 

[timets6]

Now click on Historical Certification Information. 

Since 2010, the number Canadian graduates has dropped by a tad bit. 

Graduates of accredited programs in the US, Ireland, New Zealand, and Australia - has almost doubled. 

Individuals who successfully completed the Equivalency Process has increased from 0 to 259 per year. 

 

The trend is clearly increasing and from this forum, it's obvious that more and more students every year are planning to apply to the States, NZ, Aus, etc

 

 

Graduates of accredited programs in the US, Ireland, New Zealand, and Australia

 

[Pingu48]

You will likely be able to add Poland to that list in the future. I know of a few people that never bothered to write the DAT and didn't do great in university. They  took an interview and a test, and found out that day if they got in. There is currently a push to give Poland equivalency.

Does anyone know the Canadian government's motivation for allowing so many dentists in, especially when there's an oversaturation? 

[Coronaxtra]

6 minutes ago, Pingu48 said:

You will likely be able to add Poland to that list in the future. I know of a few people that never bothered to write the DAT and didn't do great in university. They  took an interview and a test, and found out that day if they got in. There is currently a push to give Poland equivalency.

Does anyone know the Canadian government's motivation for allowing so many dentists in, especially when there's an oversaturation? 

I'm guessing a combination of lobbyists, money and a hope that they will practice in underserved areas.

[BROSCIENTIST]

23 minutes ago, Pingu48 said:

You will likely be able to add Poland to that list in the future. I know of a few people that never bothered to write the DAT and didn't do great in university. They  took an interview and a test, and found out that day if they got in. There is currently a push to give Poland equivalency.

Does anyone know the Canadian government's motivation for allowing so many dentists in, especially when there's an oversaturation? 

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it more so poor distribution rather than oversaturation? Large metro areas/surroundings are saturated-oversaturated but there are many underserved areas where dentists prefer not to practice. 

17 minutes ago, Coronaxtra said:

I'm guessing a combination of lobbyists, money and a hope that they will practice in underserved areas.

Are there stats on where FTD practice? I can't imagine why anyone can expect FTD to practice in underserved areas but not extend those expectations to Canadian grads. I imagine for most people the main motivators to practice rurally are 1) personal connection or 2) to pay off debt (and then leave soon after).

[DDSER]

3 hours ago, malkynn said:

I started planning my retirement when I got my first paycheck. 

What percentage of your paychecks do you recommend putting away for retirement?

 

2 hours ago, Ostracized said:

Not exactly.  I'm likely below average in terms of dentist income on a national level.  The fact that the owner of the practice likely earns less than me (I'm not his accountant but I can do my own rough math) is disheartening and makes me uncomfortable with practice ownership in my geographic area.  The office that I work in is very well established, and although the owner makes questionable business decisions he is a very good dentist who refers out very little.

Oh wow, do you think you would be able to turn things around business wise if you were to take over and implement better management systems, or is that too big of a risk?

[NoobieDentist]

5 hours ago, malkynn said:

This is patently untrue. Many dentists are stressed out of their minds over finances. It's actually not uncommon at all.

 

5 hours ago, DDSER said:

"doctor lifestyle"? I

Yes financial stresses as in shoot I don't make enough to buy the 4000sq foot house instead of the 3000sq foot house or I can only afford to go the Keg rather than Ruth's Chris Steak House. You can 100% never earn enough if you don't live within your means.

And yes $300-$400k in debt is scary, we've borrowed other peoples money to get a DDS degree which allows us to earn at least $150,000 compared to other educated people who on average will be in the 60k-100k range. I don't wake up stressed everyday because of my student loan, I can make minimum payments and it costs me 12-16k/year and I have the rest of my income ready to be re-invested into myself to allow me to make more money. Our aim and how to win at this game is to maximize our income by becoming practice owners as soon as possible. Okay, I know not everyone wants to own a practice and take on that extra work load, stress and responsibility. Even if you are an associate, instead of graduating and buying a 3 series BMW buy a 2005 toyota instead and put that money into a $10,000 implant course or several hands on oral surgery courses/endo courses/etc to increase productivity. Finally, If anything TAKE ON MORE DEBT...not all debt is bad debt but once you've worked long enough to get a bank willing to finance you to buy a 700k-1million  practice- do it! That extra million of debt can allow you to earn 300k-400k /year if you know how to manage and run a practice..then you can worry about paying off debts while earning among the 1% of earners in the Country.

 

 

[WomboCombo]

12 minutes ago, malkynn said:

I can't answer that for you. 

That depends on how much you make, how many years you plan on working, and how much you aim to save in retirement. 

I didn't start working until 31 and I want to retire by my early 50s.

So that leaves me only 20 years of working to pay down my debt and save a large lump sum. So 60-80% of my pay goes to debt and savings.

I could make a lot more (I used to, and it wasn't worth it for me), and I could look at owning (don't want to), and I could extend my career by at least a decade (no thank you), but instead I work exactly the way I want to, but the result is that I can't spend much of what I make (which is fine by me, I'm naturally not a spender). 

Life is a series of trade offs and I personally traded off spending so I could be happy.

My advice is that everyone be realistic about what they need and plan carefully how they want their career to go and spend responsibly from there.

 

Are you on pace to retire by early 50s? And, to clarify, you save 60 to 80% of your post tax income?

[NoobieDentist]

1 hour ago, malkynn said:

At the end of the day, owners do make more, but in the early days associates often have better cash flow. For me, I'm not willing to work more years in a cash crunch. I would rather retire earlier with less money at the end of the day.

No doubt, people have different intentions and different motives. For me, I may retire from clinical practice by 55 but I don't know what I'd do with myself if I stopped working all together, my goal is to become a multi-practice owner and grow the practices once I step away from putting in chair time. There's no right or wrong answer, everyone is in a different situation. But I don't think that it can be argued that in the lifespan of a dentist's career that a practice owner will make more money and that the major difference is that they have built up equity in their practice(s). Yes an associate can make $250,000 a year, work 4 days a week and have a dope life and there is nothing wrong with that at all. An owner doc can, because of the passive income generated by a strong hygiene program and hiring associates, make $250,000 as well working clinically 2-3 days a week and when its all said and done and they want to retire they can sell their practice for 700k-Xmill depending on the size, #of pts etc and have that nice little nest egg that the career associate unfortunately won't have.

 

Overall though, my strong advice is that don't get into dentistry for the money and if you are a dentist don't wake up everyday thinking "oh I have to produce $3000 today". This kind of short-term outlook dictating your happiness levels is very dangerous as you can quickly become very down on your self if you have a bad day/week/month. It's well and truly a marathon and not a sprint!

[Pauls]

Want to retire early?

1. save at least 20% of your net income

2. DO not buy a house in an affluent neighbourhood

3. DONT buy a house before buying a practice

4. Pay for all toys in cash

5. Invest your money in index funds (passive management) and in income producing assets 

6. MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL, DONT GET A DIVORCE! 

 

[Dr.Watson]

This is a little off topic, but can someone give me an idea of where one can practice upon passing Canadian boards and graduating? I've tried to look for this online but I don't even really know where to start. I'm just curious if Canadian boards allow you to work in any other countries.

Much appreciated. 

[Dentiste]

2 hours ago, Dr.Watson said:

This is a little off topic, but can someone give me an idea of where one can practice upon passing Canadian boards and graduating? I've tried to look for this online but I don't even really know where to start. I'm just curious if Canadian boards allow you to work in any other countries.

Much appreciated. 

Australia

 

[Pauls]

On 2017-07-29 at 2:56 AM, Dr.Watson said:

This is a little off topic, but can someone give me an idea of where one can practice upon passing Canadian boards and graduating? I've tried to look for this online but I don't even really know where to start. I'm just curious if Canadian boards allow you to work in any other countries.

Much appreciated. 

Ireland, US, New Zealand, Australia 

[Bambi]

Canada.

[User12345]

On 7/26/2017 at 7:46 PM, timets6 said:

Now click on Historical Certification Information. 

Since 2010, the number Canadian graduates has dropped by a tad bit. 

Graduates of accredited programs in the US, Ireland, New Zealand, and Australia - has almost doubled. 

Individuals who successfully completed the Equivalency Process has increased from 0 to 259 per year. 

 

The trend is clearly increasing and from this forum, it's obvious that more and more students every year are planning to apply to the States, NZ, Aus, etc

 

 

Graduates of accredited programs in the US, Ireland, New Zealand, and Australia

 

I find it quite concerning that Canada allows back foreign trained dentists through an equivalency process exam. A family friend of mine just came over from India with his wife (both dentists in India) and wrote the equivalency exams. They are now certified to practice in Ontario and plan on opening a brand new practice in Brampton soon. They even sent their son this year from high school to India to become a dentist in 3 years and write the equivalency process to come back to practice in Brampton. This trend is creeping up, especially with Indians who have tons of "tax-free money" back home and bring it over here to open up practices.

The influx of foreign grads will continue to rise for the foreseeable future, as even Poland is being floated as an option for accredited programs. I don't get why the CDA doesn't make the IDAP program mandatory for foreign grads like the States. Even though the equivalency process has a low pass rate, foreign grads will keep on writing until they pass and will open up shop in the big cities such as Toronto and Vancouver, making it even more difficult to practice in those areas. Being a Canadian/US dental grad and planning to practice in the big cities in Canada is concerning 

[Coronaxtra]

2 hours ago, malkynn said:

I'm 100% certain that the CDA has absolutely no power whatsoever to do that. 

 

I'm guessing it's the federal government that has these rules in place to bring in foreign grads through equivalency and accreditied programs? 

I think the original purpose of bringing in foreign dentists was to have them practice in rural settings however, it's quite obvious that they are staying in the big cities. Not sure why there isn't a push by students or the association to bring up the topic with the government/media to come up with a plan to reduce or stop the flow. 

[Ostracized]

22 minutes ago, Coronaxtra said:

Not sure why there isn't a push by students or the association to bring up the topic with the government/media to come up with a plan to reduce or stop the flow. 

It's not like the associations are blind or uncaring about this issue.  It's just that there's nothing to do besides gentle lobbying and any hint of limiting access to the profession would be considered anti-competitive.  The regulatory bodies have their hands tied because they serve the public, not the dentists.  

It is not in the government's interest to make certain that dentistry is a profitable profession.   

I honestly believe that the only solution to the over saturation of dentists will be the banks.  Once new grads can't pay back their student loans and dental practices start going bankrupt then the banks will stop throwing around all these no-collateral, $2XX,000 loans at prime -0.5.  The banks are actually the gate-keepers for most people entering the profession.  Sadly the profession will have to crash before that happens.  

[DDSER]

2 hours ago, Ostracized said:

It's not like the associations are blind or uncaring about this issue.  It's just that there's nothing to do besides gentle lobbying and any hint of limiting access to the profession would be considered anti-competitive.  The regulatory bodies have their hands tied because they serve the public, not the dentists.  

It is not in the government's interest to make certain that dentistry is a profitable profession.   

I honestly believe that the only solution to the over saturation of dentists will be the banks.  Once new grads can't pay back their student loans and dental practices start going bankrupt then the banks will stop throwing around all these no-collateral, $2XX,000 loans at prime -0.5.  The banks are actually the gate-keepers for most people entering the profession.  Sadly the profession will have to crash before that happens.  

Do you really think it will get to a point where new grads cant pay back $275k over 15 years?

[Ostracized]

3 hours ago, Coronaxtra said:

I think the original purpose of bringing in foreign dentists was to have them practice in rural settings 

Sorry I just want to add that this is a common misconception.  It was never the intention any party to geographically limit the licensure of FTDs and the RCSDO for example has stated many times that it will never happen.  

41 minutes ago, DDSER said:

Do you really think it will get to a point where new grads cant pay back $275k over 15 years?

I don't know.  I'm an unabashed pessimist about this issue but then again I work in Toronto.  

Some people (US/Aus/etc grads) are going a lot more than $275k in debt.  I'm actually not sure how that works (will the banks fund it?  Is substantial collateral needed?  Is it mostly from the bank of mom and dad?). 

[DDSER]

57 minutes ago, Ostracized said:

Sorry I just want to add that this is a common misconception.  It was never the intention any party to geographically limit the licensure of FTDs and the RCSDO for example has stated many times that it will never happen.  

I don't know.  I'm an unabashed pessimist about this issue but then again I work in Toronto.  

Some people (US/Aus/etc grads) are going a lot more than $275k in debt.  I'm actually not sure how that works (will the banks fund it?  Is substantial collateral needed?  Is it mostly from the bank of mom and dad?). 

It is so hard to get a bank loan if you're studying out of the country. Your parents or cosigner must show substantial assets. I know 2 people who couldn't get approved by the banks for a loan because of this reason. The parents had to end up either refinancing their homes or selling properties to pay

[Coronaxtra]

1 hour ago, DDSER said:

It is so hard to get a bank loan if you're studying out of the country. Your parents or cosigner must show substantial assets. I know 2 people who couldn't get approved by the banks for a loan because of this reason. The parents had to end up either refinancing their homes or selling properties to pay

Basically, there are people going abroad with 500K+ debt and planning to come back. Also, we have an influx of foreigners with substantial $$ challenging the equivalency exam. On top, we have Canadian grads planning on practicing here. Seems like the most successful ones with financial backing will survive while the rest will get the short end of the stick, having to pay off debt for years and years. The housing prices (COL in general) doesn't look promising either....

[cleanup]

On 7/24/2017 at 0:19 AM, Jason50 said:

I agree with the above who said it depends. Depends on where you want to work (rural vs urban).   I'm about 1 year out in BC in my 2nd associateship, and I'm grossing on average about 15-16K per month working 5 days 45 hours a week. But I know people who make significantly more than that and work less hours and people who make significantly less than that  throughout the province. Generally, the Vancouver mainland, you don't make as much because of market saturation of dentists but go to a small, rural place like Fort St John or Fort Nelson, you can easily rake in +200K.

 

Dude, you work a lot. Good for you for pulling it off. I remember one month I worked 46 hours a week, 6 days a week. I made a good income that month (nearly twice as much as I make now in a month on my typical schedule, which I would say is below the average), but I really couldn't do it. That said, I had a long commute as well.

My first year-and-a-bit of practice has taught me that you can make a lot of money, if you want to work like a dog and have a very short career (and possibly life). I'd equate dentistry up there with general surgery in how hard it can be on your body.