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I don't understand the point of this post. You're already a medical student, why bother? It reads like someone who still holds a bitter grudge. McMaster have been doing things their way for decades and are a pretty revolutionary school (for example, they were the first to implement PBL which is used all over the world now, probably at your school too). CARS tests deductive reasoning which is a crucial skill to possess in medicine (it's not just memorization) and Casper is more of a filter test. They want to get a general idea of what the applicant is like. It makes lying on an application harder because they don't care if you created some charity or pumped out 100 research articles before the end of 1st year (I'm looking at you son of that rad onc). Also FYI academic institution rankings don't mean anything. It is more to do with the research they pump out. I know of people currently studying medicine at the University of Melbourne & University of Sydney in Australia, both great schools that are ranked as being 17th & 18th in the world for med by QS World University rankings. But they are there because they could not get into a Canadian school with their lower (albeit still fine) stats. I know for a fact they would have been grateful to get into Saskatchewan or Manitoba (which ranks waaaay further down, something like between 400-450 I think). They are shelling out over 350k to attend big name institutions that do a lot of research and are more forgiving to international applicants with lower stats because they are full fee paying. So again, ranking doesn't mean anything. Bashing McMaster for being ranked 77th really isn't doing you any favours. Also the fact that you think applicants with a 4.0 and 520 MCAT are entitled to an interview is concerning. No one is entitled to an interview. People with a wide variety of stats and life experiences bring a lot to medicine.

Red flags/Indigenious/Trolls Goodluck to everyone on their interviews!

Timestamp: 9:14AM Invite/Reject: Invites!!!! GPA: 3.18 CARS: 126 Casper: really didn’t study but did it before for nursing school. Thought the nursing one was tougher tbh lol. Clearly did pretty well -IP

As a current MD student, at a top 5 university, I found it absurd that candidates of such high caliber (and many of my close friends, with 4.0 GPAs and MCATs in 515-520s) are not offered interviews (at a school that is ranked 77th in Times Higher Education's). What makes this selection process more mind-boggling is that only one segment of the MCAT and a situational judgment tests (that is argued to be biased against certain demographics: Jerant A. et al. 2015 Academic Medicine ) have such a huge impact on chances of being offered an interview. My thoughts are: 1- MCAT is a comprehensive standardized exam! Why not include other MCAT sections? (Shouldn't a medical school applicant have a solid understanding of biology, biochemistry, physics, chemistry, sociology, and psychology???) 2- As an immigrant, a person of lower socioeconomic background, and someone who english isn't his/her first language, CARS, Casper, and MMI, create Herculean barriers for people like me to overcome. 3- McMaster associated company (ALTUS Assessments Inc) are making a lot of money from these test and most of the pro-research on this topic is born from McMaster studies. This basically displays a financial conflict of interest in the admission process for McMaster university. 4- Unlike what is said, it is highly possible to prepare for MMI and Casper by spending a lot of money, time, and going to prep companies. 5- Why are people's extracurricular activities, research, and awards not considered at MAC? Please don't be rude and attack my post! I have been factual. I hope that my post acts as a primer in the minds of the applicant community and hopefully future physicians. P.S. Congrats to qualified applicants who are offered interviews! I wish you the best.

NP - it is an important discussion of course, just belongs one thread down on the list ha

I don't know about that Moreland, me thinks you're giving me a little too much credit. B.c if that was true, I think I would see a trend of average scores here and there, not an inbox full of below averages and 14th percentile scores . I've been working on a farm/construction field and its not like I'm rude about how I deliver my message/interactions, its just that I'm not as PC as these institutions want students to be. Now mind you, I do realize that there's no way I would know the exact reason for my below average MMI marks. However, the small group preceptors let me know how "one sided" I am during our ethics discussions. I know for a fact that alot of these small group preceptors are interviewers, in fact, I've met 1 of my interviewers a couple weeks ago. Giving you an example of how I apporach questions may give you a little more insight on why a prep company helped me out (if you care to read this). In one of the small groups that discussed how to be professional, we debated on the limit of what we can say and what would invoke repercussion from UME. I said ppl should be able to voice their religion/opinions outside of school without repercussions as long as its legal. If there a doc who's a big time Bible thumper and voices that they disagrees with gay marriage on their own time at a bar talking to their friend and someone over hears him and reports him to the school, I said he shouldn't be reprimanded in my opinion. In the small group I said I feel like there's a difference b.t someone's belief vs hate speech. Furthermore, the context of the situation is that he's talking to a friend, not going up to a gay couple and go westboro baptist on them. Well the preceptor definitely let me know how wrong my opinion was. 85% of my small group also let me know that I'm being a "Trumper" . Yes, I do realize that this could cause some patients if they hear that hypothetical statement. WHich is why I was focusing on how to prevent patients from overhearing you or see your Tweet (another example), E.g don't add them on your personal account and don't add ppl who's going to blast your controversial statements all over the internet - you know like in real life. We all make stupid jokes/say ridiculous things to our friends right? I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one laughing/re-telling David Chapel's x rated jokes to friends. Let's talk about some pragmatic approaches to prevent others from seeing/hearing the more controversial hot-takes. Call me a hill billy, but my grand daddy fought in the war for freedom of legal expression/speech. Sorry I know I'm on a tangent, I'm just saying that I really had to fake 90% of my answers during the MMI and it's kind of silly b.c the "real" me would of never gotten in. And to answer your question about pushing for more details, well that's for them to find out, everyone's situation is different. However, if you're more of a....hmm.... I guess jaded pragmatist like me, then I would suggest my schedule of 2 sessions/week for 1 month and then 1 session / week for 3 months. The question is a little too general to make it applicable, it would be like Px comes in your ER with stomach pain + anemia what's your diagnosis. At the end of the day I know for a fact that the MMI prep group helped me. You are right that I would of learned how to answer the questions the way they want, but that would of taken me another couple of years (best scenario). Again I would like to stress that not every 1 will find MMMI prep groups helpful, even if the service was for free. Its a free world so ppl can make their own decision on # of sessions/which company to go with - that's the beauty of Canada.

I collect. No Panerais currently but I had a PAM111 in the past.

Nice username.

I think most of us are aware that the scoring systems used in medicine admissions (particularly for McMaster) have little basis in reality and have questionable supporting evidence, with weak to no correlation to future success as a physician. Unfortunately, there are far more qualified applicants than there are seats for students/residents, which in turn is determined by government health care funding. The real issue here may be the resistance to increasing the number of seats/funding to support a growing population (as well as a growing number of applicants)- an issue that's very prominent with the current Ford government in Ontario. That being said, I agree completely that Casper (and MMI) has a conflict of interest issue, and that McMaster seems to be the odd one out for not looking at ECs, when even Western has given up on the numbers game. Have you tried to participate in the admissions committee for your school? I don't know if medical students have a say in the matter.

Do want to point out that previous research showed that higher VR scores were associated with less complaints against the doc, the other sections didn’t really do much other than perhaps a threshold of how they may do in qualifying exams like the USMLE. Even Toronto doesn’t out much clout into MCAT as you learn what you need to learn in medical school. but as for CASPer, yeah I agree on the criticisms there. Big money grab, conflict of interest, etc. Sadly this is the system, can’t do much unless you get into adcom to create change, unless all applicants collectively just stopped applying or something which we know won’t happen.

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I heard that research experience for Uoft med is pretty important, so I extended that knowledge to dentistry. That being said I know two people who have gotten in without research recently, and I think it's more about having certain competencies that comes with doing higher level academic work. At the end of the day, finding a research position that allows for meaningful work is extremely difficult, I went through many positions myself until I was able to do basic analysis. I think this would be the same for most candidates, so demonstrating your skills in other areas should be okay.

First off, congrats i8aSS on the acceptance!! For anyone reading this who may be looking into prep companies but can't afford the thousands, there are PLENTY of free opportunities to practice your MMI skills as well, including the many mock interviews being set up (just look around the forum or in fb groups). Alternatively for some more tailored feedback/additional prep, a more affordable option may be to reach out to student run consulting groups. You can check the classified section of this forum for a few options! http://forums.premed101.com/forum/44-for-saletrade-classifieds/

Hello all! I am a first year medical student studying at a university in Ontario. I received interview offers for Western, Ottawa, and McMaster, and I was successful in all interviews. I received an offer of admission to all schools during the first round of offers. I will work one-on-one and give personalized feedback on your interview skills. I can help you prepare for both MMIs and traditional interview, and give very specific tips on the different medical school interviews. Location: Skype/google hangouts Feel free to message me if you have any questions!

Lecture from University of Calgary https://ucalgary.yuja.com/V/Video?v=32263&node=200198&a=1214071359&autoplay=1

I think it's great that you're interested in a medical career and serving a rural population. You have a lot of life experience and have achieved a high degree of success, but unfortunately most medical schools will judge you predominantly by your GPA. Without a strong to stellar GPA, you simply generally won't even be considered. You would have to become a full-time student and achieve at least two years of excellent GPA to even stand the slimmest of chances for the few schools that consider your most recent performance. But even then, you'd have to additionally do well on the MCAT and become involved with premed ECs to some extent. Additionally, since you're from Ontario, you're going to be faced with the most competition. And, since it seems you're originally from the GTA, then you won't have any realistic chance at a school like NOSM whose mission is more oriented towards rural populations. I don't mean to discourage you. I think all your strengths and interest in rural medicine are a big plus, but unfortunately adcoms don't work like that. Before embarking on a very lengthy and costly journey, I'd simply suggest considering all your options. Perhaps another area of health-care practice would be also be of interest - like nurse practitioner, especially in a rural setting? Good luck with whatever you decide.

The most important thing is your GPA. It doesn’t matter at all what program you do. Go to an easy university and take easy courses. You don’t need to do any chem or bio courses except the ones required as prerequisites. You can study for the MCAT without taking a lot of science courses. I did all this and was able to get a high GPA and MCAT score. Another thing to consider is your geographical location. If you’re from Ontario, you’re in the most competitive environment for MD admission. If you do your undergrad in Saskatchewan, BC or Alberta, you’ll be considered an in province applicant to those med schools and your chances will be much higher for admission. Start volunteering in first year and do meaningful things, and do them for as long as you can. Don’t just volunteer in a club for 4 months. Try to do continue it throughout your entire undergrad. Read books, keep yourself sharp. It’s a good hobby and it does help with CARS section of the MCAT. You don’t worry about residency at all until you are actually in med school. Finally, make sure you have considered other careers before going for med. You will be in school for 4 years after your 4 years of undergrad, and then 2-6 years of residency. Your life will be very stressful in med school and residency, very little downtime. If you want a cushy 40h/week job, med is not the choice. You will be working much more than that + on call. But if you are okay with all that, and can’t imagine doing anything else, go for it!

Hello, My girlfriend is about to start an accelerated 2 year nursing program. She recently applied for a LOC from TD Bank but was turned down, due to a couple of old resolved credit issues. Are the specific banks that are typically more lenient / forgiving when it comes to professional loans for nursing students? I know that back in the day when I was starting med school, National Bank was always willing to do the most for med students, I guess because they aren't as big as the other guys... is that the case for nursing re National Bank? Or otherwise, any insight into Scotia or RBC? Thanks, Matt

Excellent points. I completely understand that schools have no incentive to change their processes for political reasons. As you said, it gives them a lot of cache when they can literally sell their program as the closest thing Canada has to a guaranteed route to medicine. But if medical schools crack down on this kind of unfair grade inflation, I can't help but think that things will change. As to your second point, you're absolutely right. I don't think academic ability is meaningful beyond a certain point. I'd love to see the data that says that a 4.0 is significantly better than a 3.8 when it comes to the kind of doctor someone will become. And I recognize that the reliance on GPA is the best measure of academic ability that many med schools have. But its ridiculous that at certain schools, you have to work day and night to get that 3.8 whereas at others, its virtually handed to you. A 3.8 in certain programs would not translate to a 3.8 in others and I personally wish medical schools would actively make a point of at least acknowledging in clear words that they are aware that some schools shamelessly inflate grades -- because right now, they don't even do that. I respectfully disagree. I don't mean to hate on mac health sci but the reason that program comes up is because it has the most blatant grade inflation and, as a result, a very high proportion of its students go to medical school. Just as I cannot say that every student who goes to mac health sci would have done poorly in any other program, I don't feel you can say that all students in mac health sci are brilliant and would have done well elsewhere. There are no doubt students who would have gotten that 4.0 regardless of where they went, mac health sci included. But from personal experience, I can say that some of the people who I know who went to mac health sci were objectively not the best and brightest in my high school. They had decent grades as well as connections that helped them tremendously with their essay writing so they gained admission over students who were arguably more deserving (and no, I'm not referring to myself here). Is everyone in mac health sci like this? Of course not. But everyone in that program definitely isn't Einstein either and I feel a considerable chunk of them would not have done as well in other programs where you're actually graded on a curve. I once saw the Program Agenda for the graduation ceremony for mcmaster science students. An asterisk was used to denote students who received a cGPA > 3.7. The difference between mac life sci and mac health sci students was stark. Less than 10% of life sci students had an asterisk but >90% of mac health sci students did (not an exaggeration). That is not because everyone in that program is just so brilliant while students in a different program at the same university are not. It is because mac life sci grades on a curve and mac health sci is designed to give everyone the highest mark possible. Once again, I don't mean to attack mac health sci students or say they wouldn't have gotten into medical school otherwise. But they have a CLEAR advantage, which can be seen in trends over decades, and I wish medical schools would openly acknowledge and condemn that kind of approach to an undergraduate education.

We need to stop with the “those students would be successful anyways”. They’re enabled to be successful because of them being in Mac Health Science. The program grooms them. In no way can you compare high school performance with university performance because the two are leaps and bounds different. Particular examples: they get to take courses enabling them to explore something they like, where they are aligned with the community, faculty for research, etc. All things that can be added to their ECs when applying. No such courses exist for those pursuing other science-based degrees and thus their volunteering and other ECs are on top of coursework. Health Sci students get to take a situational ethics course structured similarly to a MMI interview. They are evaluated and given feedback on how to improve over the duration of an entire semester with different scenarios. McMaster is also the school that designed the MMI, and the MMI is being integrated into many med school interviews. Seems like an awfully huge conflict of interest. The average of a health science student basically needs to be high because the program needs to boast academic excellence. Behind closed doors, when health sci students do poorly as a collective on tests/assignments, they are curved to make their grades meet what it needs to be. They can do well in other courses outside of their core health sci courses because they don’t have nearly as much of a workload compared to other science-based degrees. These boosts in all areas of the med school application that are not available to other students are what are ensuring their high prevalence in medical school.

only way to really do that realistically is to adopt the MCAT as a proxy for academic performance - in fact that is exactly why the MCAT exists. It would be very hard to rank various programs - the difficulty is hard to assess with such variety in degree of challenge, class size, and strength of the incoming students. The US made the MCAT as they figured it was just impossible to do.

4.0=Academically savvy? Not necessarily, especially if you are from Mac health sci.