WomboCombo

I'm sorry about your situation. As of right now, I have not encountered a program that is more understanding.

Programs will take either NBDE Part 1 or INBDE. If you don't have either, most programs will not let you apply. Some programs have gone as far as saying that they understand that COVID has resulted in the inability for those to take either exam, but will not waive the requirement.

It all depends on getting the ok from main campus! So yes, we shall see!

Grad clinics return in July. 50 percent occupancy for undergrad clinics in August probably for the rest of the school year with four handed dentistry at all times so aerosol production is minimized. They had debated allowing undergrads return in July but said we could take it off so we can return in August. Without needing N95s, the school is no longer short on PPE as regular surgical masks will be provided per usual. Students will begin with treatment that is already in progress in August (inserts, try ins, emergencies, urgent tx) with minimal aerosol production, followed by the ability in September to start new treatment.

At UofT, the return to patient care is August 4.

I studied for 3 weeks and found that to be sufficient. I wrote it in the summer between my second and third year (August 2019). There were many resources available compared to the INBDE, so I decided to write Part 1. If you decide to write Part 1, you will have to write Part 2 sometime in 2022 at the latest, so be sure to factor that into your plans. I found that my school covered most topics but I did have to do some self studying myself. Generally similar topics get repeated on the exam so having many resources was helpful. PM me if you have any other questions!

Great questions here's a few more things I can add to my previous post about U of T now that I'm in second year: Curriculum: Some courses try their best to update what they teach to match what is out there in the real world. In endo, we get to try out WaveOne Gold. In prostho, the second year course has been updated to include more about implants and partial dentures that exceed some of what the current fourth years have learned. I had the chance to have dinner with the course directors of prostho and they are very open to changes in the course. They appreciate any feedback, including negative feedback and try to find ways to make sure that students have a better grasp of the course before going into clinic. Resto is still a bit outdated but it is good that we learn some aesthetic dentistry (veneers) and we get to try out the CAD/CAM crown milling machine. Perio, while it is didactic, is quite updated in terms of surgical procedures and even the classification scheme for periodontal disease. Most course directors are open to changes in their courses and I am working with other students to update and improve the curriculum (e.g. trying to implement more restorative in first year). It is also possible to move exam/test days around so that it can be more manageable - profs are often open to changes ahead of time. Student Environment: There's a place for everyone. A large class means you will be able to find people to connect with. Students are generally happy at the school and the school is working on ways to improve student experience. Mental health talks, free coffee/snacks on Wednesdays, and many opportunities to get involved are just some of the things that students have responded positively to. Staff Quality: Generally good. Yes, there are some staff who the students may not have the best time with but with the way the courses are structured - demos/hygienists rotate every so often so it evens out. Non-dentist/hygienist staff are generally nice but sometimes can give you a bit of an attitude. There are various ways for you to let the course director or student leadership know about this and changes may be able to be made. Faculty are generally happy to meet with you (sometimes they have an open door policy) and many feel invested in your education. If you want to shadow the grad clinics, it is not a problem at all. Involvement Opportunities: There are a lot of opportunities - often it's easy to lose track of them. Many leadership opportunities, many intramural teams, and many volunteering/fundraising opportunities, etc. If you find that you want to start an organization, that is possible too. A few of my classmates started a Women in Dentistry group and they have been doing quite well so far! There are plenty of opportunities to do research as well - U of T is big on academia. Etc.: Western and Toronto have their own pros and cons. Dental school is tough for most students so a big factor to consider is living/attending somewhere that you feel will make you happiest. U of T is not a perfect program and like many Canadian schools - is not the strongest clinically - but it is in a city that has something for everyone. I did my undergrad at Western and enjoyed my time in London, but Toronto is a very different experience. The question is if you prefer this type of experience over living in London.

I'm a 2021 student - it would be hard for me to know most of the 2018 class. It is good that your cohort has a survey! It's definitely not going to be a home run, that first (or even first few associateships). It takes a lot of trial and error. Just wanted to thank you for your contributions on the forum! Lots to learn from you and others for sure.

No. However I hope that this question was not asked out of sarcasm. For sure. I believe that if you go into healthcare, one must understand that quality opportunities will not always be available in desirable locations. Not trying to refute anything that anyone has said here but I want to provide what I heard through the grapevine.

Can confirm the aforementioned associateships are quality ones. Even the ones who are stringing part time positions in the GTA are quite happy with their lives.

Every new graduate from my school I know has lined up a job before or right after graduation. Some full time. Golden Horseshoe region. YMMV

Your average established general dentist owner will be doing around double what you posted. They report 150K income as the income they pay themselves to maximize RRSPs and TFSAs but the rest stays in their professional corporation to be used for raising passive income, buying equipment, paying off practice and school debt, and etc.

https://www.cma.ca/Assets/assets-library/document/en/advocacy/Family-e.pdf CMA reports average FM gross $249,000 w/ 28.2% overhead. Hope this helps

Ostracized, any regrets about dental? Would you prefer working in a less saturated region?

Ultimately, choose something you enjoy. Dental, like other options cleanup listed, will provide a comfortable income. But all the money in the world can't save you from a job that makes you miserable.

Medicine is facing issues with employment outlook - many specialties are tough to find full time positions. Sure it is stable but I believe being an owner of a dental practice is also stable since you dictate your own employment. Med might have the same financial potential as dents but how many hours a week do they work for it? Does it match up $/hr compared to dental?

Yeah, Pauls is 100% correct. It isn't a license, it provides the opportunity to. How you are as a business person, as a likeable person, as a clinician, how flexible you are in where you work, when and how many hours you work, and etc. will play a huge role towards compensation.

Can we change the title of this thread now

No, more like 40%. Unless the owner had like 35-40% overhead which means they were a master at managing expenses.

If you are able to get into a cheaper Canadian school, work some summer jobs, and earn some scholarships, the debt is very low and maybe could be 0 (and hence manageable) if you have some parental support at places like McGill and Montreal. This is what good grades will do for you since Canadian schools are tougher to get into than US counterparts for the most part (and command a 300K to 500K tuition compared to less than 90K in some places in Canada). Some people in the US do the military route to have their tuition fully covered, it is a pretty solid option for them. Once again, your post has a couple of strong assumptions. I will end by saying that dentistry is hard work - it can be all the things you envisioned in the field but the way you construe how tough the profession is will only impede you from achieving what you want. If everyone thought as doom and gloom as you, then no one out there would believe they could be successful and carve out a great career in dentistry. But we know that is not true at all - many dentists have found a way to be successful. Go in with realistic expectations and strive to do your best. If you are as passionate as you make it seem, then you should have no issue meeting your goals despite what obstacles are in your way. Some will think all this is too hard to overcome and some will realize it is still possible and break through. I will side by the latter. So yes, all of this is worth it if you are willing to be smart about things and be financially responsible with practicing. And I guess based on what you wrote physicians in their early 30s will be so in the red too that a mortgage or car or fun or family in their lives is not possible at all. You tell me if that actually makes sense. This should mark the end of discussion. Cheers

Doing medicine is not a guarantee these days either - and they are getting hammered with their own set of problems. Corps are not the norm in Canada and won't be for some time. Even in the States, corps are everywhere but people can still do fine as peactice owners. Tougher, but fine. Perhaps your view of dentistry is stuck in the golden ages, but like most healthcare professions that sadly isn't the case anymore and you will have to accept that. You can still achieve all the bullet points you listed (actually Pauls brother is doing phenomenally well in a suburb as a practice owner who created his own practice 4 years ago) but you need to be smarter about things. Cheers

If you follow the Raptors - their coach always says: Hard things are hard. Nothing ever comes easy these days. Working hard does not guarantee you anything, it merely gives you a higher chance of success. Give me a higher chance any day of the week.

Dentists working in corps can get compensated very well (do not mix corp with poor compensation) but lose autonomy and get burned out very quickly. I mean this is now IMO a moot discussion, none of us are really here to convince you if dentistry is good or not. Clearly you do not think so, but please do not denigrate the profession and questioning its future with many assumptions. If you want a guaranteed salary with a nice lifestyle, nothing will be handed to you like that. Pharmacists make a good salary. They do good work. There is oversaturation but it is a good field. 1K a day is like 1 crown. Nothing else. No hygiene. No x-rays.

I could not have said it better. Things are not given, they are earned. This is one example of someone who did just fine and is having a good time with the field of dentistry. Good stuff.

A couple of things. The first few years are not about just making money to pay off debts - it is to build hand skill and speed. Second, why would you ever build a practice if there is one across that street - that is a setup for disaster. Third, there are plenty of startups in Canada and USA that have done extremely well - well how did they do it: advertising, Breakaway method, and the other things I already listed that are vital towards a successful practice in my previous post. Sure they have it tough in years 1-3, but most by year 4 do very well. And no, it is less about clinical skill (patients have a tough time knowing what good dentistry is) but about personality, business acumen, and how they feel about the staff, fees, and the facility, and how accommodating the practice is for them. Successful dentists have told me that people drive 1-1.5 hours just to see them. I am sure they could have saved a lot of commute time by going somewhere else... but they didnt... well why is that. Also, it is known that you should spend 5-10 percent of your net income towards advertising, especially during the infancy years. Dentistry is a business as much as it is an art and a science. This is a numbers game - on DentalTown, everything is a number. Daily production goals, production per chair per month, percent overhead management, average income of individuals within a certain diameter, etc. Everything is calculated, every visit is tracked, every payment is noted, everything is numbers. In the States, plenty of MDs advertise on billboards. Also, many established practices do not advertise as much anymore because word-of-mouth for them already provides enough NPs (new patients) and they have flexibility to dismiss patients that are deemed inappropriate for them to work with. Not true about ortho FYI. Ortho is getting saturated because GPs and pedos can do ortho as well through CE. Ortho is also being commoditized via DIY braces which is being advertised at $1500. There are not enough ortho patients per office and so orthos need to build multiple practices to keep themselves busy. And since when is dental salary at 120K. I thought you knew about incorporation and that average ADA and CDA stats prove otherwise. It is much higher than that. Or else, it makes 0 sense to have an associate. For income to drop to 80K, you would need to produce about 200K annually on 40% OH. That would be like 1K a day. If you were to sit around for 5 hours a day and only work 2.5 hours a day, sure you would only produce 1K a day.