Jump to content
Premed 101 Forums

ImaDentt2014

Members
  • Content Count

    13
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    3

ImaDentt2014 last won the day on August 25 2016

ImaDentt2014 had the most liked content!

About ImaDentt2014

  • Rank
    Member

Recent Profile Visitors

144 profile views
  1. This post +1. I won't call anyone out, but there are some predents in this thread with a weaker filter, belaboring a specific point that they're worried. To all reading this thread, this entire thread is far more predent heavy in terms of comments, compared to actual dentists. Predents, go back and read the comments by the actual dentists. Malkyn works 3 days per week by choice, and loves it Ostracized from what I gather works right in Toronto, and although has seen income decline, has no regrets and would do it again Mightymolar who owns multipe practices, and is setting themselves up for a great retirement troothfairy, who knows those working in Alberta making 300-400k I work 5 days per week in the GTA and will likely earn 185k in my second year of practice working right in the GTA, close to Toronto There is tons of great content in this thread - both positive and negative in terms of dentistry. But if you read through the thread and try to identify and focus on the posts by the actual dentists, not the less informed predents, you'll see we're all pretty positive. OK, enough defending dentistry - if you're not convinced after reading this thread, try talking to actual dental students / dentists in person. Who knows, maybe after discussion you'll determine dentistry isn't for you
  2. I'll conclude by saying that I am not trying to be dentistry's knight in shining armour here. I am not denying that many (most?) dentists feel that they are not busy, that they have down time. But here's the golden nugget - you don't need to be busy in dentistry to make a good income. It's all because of how highly we are compensated per procedure. Let's take dentist Dr. Sam. Scenario 1: Dr. Sam is practicing in 1997. The stock market is approaching all time highs, the economy is good, and Sam has lots of patients. He works at a bustling practice, and is the only associate. It's 1997, so no internationally trained dentists can get licensure here without going through qualifying programs, not many Canadians going to American dental schools, the population to dentist ratio is high - Sam is busy! Very little down time. In 1997, Sam earns $350,000-400,000 in a year! Oh boy! Scenario 2: Dr. Sam is practicing in 2016. He works in Oakville and Woodbridge, he couldn't find full time work at one clinic, as each clinic only needed a part time associate. He has down time in between patients, does a filling or two, a recall or two, and is on his phone a lot in between patients. He reads the news, facetimes his cousins, gets out his favorite book, etc. He ends up making $155,000 in a year. If Sam was practicing in 1997, and in 2016 - boy would he be disappointed! He used to earn $400k per year, but now he only earns $155,000 - ouch! I'm sure he's telling all the new grads how bad it is, how slow it is, how there are no patients, how he makes no money. But if you ask me, he's still doing pretty good! And you might respond by saying his income is going to track down further? What if he makes $120k or $90k? It's possible. That's why you should only do dentistry if you're in it for the career, not the money. If you're in it for the career, then if you only have the patients required to earn $90k, you earn your $90k and enjoy working a condensed schedule. It's crazy how little you'd have to work to earn $90k, you could mostly be relaxing - and then all the physical stress of dentistry goes away since you're no longer working physically that hard. It's like a balancing scale - if you work hard, then you must be earning a lot. If you don't work hard (either by choice or by lack of patients), then you're still earning amazing money for the time that you're working, and you'll earn a great income for doing relatively little work. Dentistry is not the same as it was in the golden era. But it's still very high paying. I can do two fillings in 30 minutes, and get paid $430, of which I get 40%. I might be not busy, but I only need to do that a few times in a a day to make great money. /end. Just my perspective, your mileage may vary. I think dentisrty is a great profession, and a field where great clinicians, who care about their patients can make a great living doing a great job.
  3. Cleanup has delivered a thoughtful, and well written piece. I will offer my own perspective. Cleanup, you seem to be a matured mind, and I will take the liberty of assuming you are ok with me commenting on your words. Finances are a real concern. True. But if they're bothering you this much, let me tell you that there are much, much easier ways to have a lucrative career. Agreed. If you're into the money, you probably can figure out a better path. However, if you're in it for the career and love for the actual job, medicine is probably you're only other reasonable option. But even that's a fairly different career with only partial overlap. Let me reiterate a few points that are at this point bloody horse carcasses. No one can predict your income. It will depend on too many things to mention here. But it is relative. Let's say you could earn very little, and let's define very little as at or below $100,000 annually. Let's define a lot as at or above $200,000 annually, in your first year of practice. Even if you're on the high end of this made-up scale (you're making "a lot" of money), how are you getting there? To generate $200k of income, given a 40% share of collections, you need the following: You have to produce about $41000 in billings per month, or $10250 per week. If you work full-time (4-5 days) that's about $2000-2500 per day. This is excluding lab fees. If your billings of $2000-2500 per day include lab fees, you will see your share shrink dramatically. A typical lab fee for a crown (which you might bill about $1000-1100 for) is between $300-500. Lab fees for removable prosthetics are usually less, but nevertheless, you're not receiving all 40% of that $2000-2500. If you want to produce $41000 a month AFTER lab fees, you either have to be doing nearly entirely restorative, endodontic, surgical dentistry, or you need to actually be producing more like $45000+ a month with your prostho work factored in, which means your billings should actually average $2250-2800 a month. That is a dramatic jump depending on how fast you are. An extra $250-300 in billings could just be a filling or two, but that filling or two could take you an extra hour a day. In the industry, we look at the NPF, or net professional fees. This is your billings, less lab fees and any other deductions. It's true, when you do dentistry that involves lab work, the lab component of the fee charged to the patient is reduced from your billings to get to your NPF, of which you are paid your 40%. But doing work like crowns, or bridges, or implants, or dentures - these are all higher fee procedures. Sure, if I do a $1050 crown, the lab fee may be $350. But I also billed for a crown, which takes a total of 1.5-1.75 hours (1 hour first appointment for preparation of crown, impression and making a temporary crown, 30 minutes next appontment for cementing the crown). My point is that although lab fees are deducted, if you're doing procedures with lab fees they often pay well. Your mileage may vary based on your clinical speed, the patient (eg. a denture patient that comes back for 15 adjustments) etc. But net billing $350 per hour isn't that difficult. That's two fillings per hour. That's a crown. So let's assume you're working typical full-time 7-8 hour days. $2800 in 8 hours is billing $350 an hour. No problem right? Once again that's just a couple fillings per hour! This is assuming a few more things. 1. You're fully booked. If you have gaps in your schedule, suddenly to stay on track you need to be billing more like $400-500 an hour when you're actually seeing patients. 2. You're seeing patients that actually bill the full fee, ie. no ODSP, OW, Healthy Smiles, other government benefit programs. These patients aren't any different in the amount of time they take to work on (in fact one could argue they take longer because they often have poorer oral hygiene and worse states of oral health), but they are drastically different in how you're compensated. I did an enormous MOB today that took about an hour and 3 carpules of composite. I made about $35. So that hour, I made less than the hygienist in the chair next door, and I took on a hell of a lot more professional liability as well. A lot of dental clinics (arguably, the grand majority) will see these patients. How many you see will once again cut into your bottom line. In fact, it's probably even worse for the principal. After paying me, paying the assitant, paying for the cost of the materials (exceptionally high, trust me), as well as the opportunity cost of having that chair with a government assistance patient in it vs. an insurance or fee-for-service patient, I guarantee you social assistance patients essentially generate close to zero income for the practice. ODSP, OW (social services) pay 1/3 to 1/2 of what I dentist normally bills a patient with private insurance. The practice you work for might net $0 for your work on these patients. However, you still get paid something (albeit very little), and this is part of the 'giving back' that we like to toss around in healthcare. If everyone refused social services patients, where would they have their care done? They do have higher rates of no shows, dissatisfaction, more oral disease etc. but I take this as part of the job. Let's tack on a few more assumptions we'll have to make: your billings are consistent month-to-month. This isn't true in the least. Summer months are slow. Holidays are slow. Patients cancel, don't show up, leave you hanging. You will have slow days, weeks, months. You will struggle to keep your numbers consistent, because that's natural. Yes. Slow times can be boring, no shows are the worse. I try to look at my overall billings in a quarter rather than day to day. I expect that billings will be all over the place day to day and look at the big picture. Now the non-numerical side of the equation: dentistry is tiring and stressful. Let's say everything I just mentioned is A-okay. You're busy. You're booked. You see very few disability, social assistance patients. You have a nice, fulltime, well-rounded schedule. Are you fast? Are you efficient? Can you do this without burning out? Do you like interacting with patients? How do you deal with complications and when things go wrong? When patients are upset? When staff are upset? When patients are nervous, anxious, don't trust you, or think you hurt them? After an 8-10 hour day of seeing patients, I am completely spent. I am fortunate enough to be busy to the point where I don't eat lunch or dinner some days, but when I get home, I just pass out, and I do it again tomorrow. This is not simply due to being busy, or the physical nature of the job; it's also due to the stress, and to the constant expectation of you to be operating at 100%. You cannot (and I stress cannot) let your staff, patients or the public know that you're tired, that you're stressed, that you want to go home, that you need a break. You're the doctor, you're the professional, and you need to be speaking, presenting and acting well in order to give your patients the best care. This, above all else, is tiring. Dentistry is tiring, and physical. No denying that. However, I would not say across the board that dentists are just zonked out, drained to zero, and exhausted. I have my tiring days. Days where you bend. But I try to maintain posture, I stretch between patients, I work out on evenings and weekends to keep me physically fit, and strong, and overall I don't think I'm so exhausted I can't function. Some days I just want a beer (or many) and to watch tv, but that's ok. Some days I really am just beat and want to sleep. I'd still take that over sitting at a computer. I do doubt MDs feel this physical stress like dentists do, though. Quite simply, if you're expecting 'easy money' from this career, it's not going to happen. I can guarantee you even if you're on the high-end of first-year associate income, there exist much, much easier ways to do it, that don't stress you out ("That screaming kid was crying so much the nitrous wasn't working! I had to turn them away!"), exhaust your body ("My neck feels awful! Gotta keep going though", keep you up at night ("I hope that patient's okay. She was in a lot of pain."), or demand that you work hours that fit the public rather than your prerogative ("It's the weekend and I wish I was with my girlfriend, but I've got to go in to work"). I'm not trying to be all doom-and-gloom, but the pessimism, for lack of a better phrase, does not come from nowhere. This is not an easy job, and the economic landscape is only making it worse. I can guarantee that if making a good income is your primary goal, you should do something else. This is a very important point. "if making a good income is your primary goal, you should do something else." I think a big thesis of Cleanup's post is that there are probably easier ways to make a good income. Distilled down, you need to ask yourself truly, "why am I pursuing dentistry?". If it's because of just the income, I'd also say do something else. If it's to make a good income AND I love the day to day work of a dentist, then keep headed in the same direction, pursuing dentistry. The last thing I wanted to mention is that the trend in dentistry these days is a heavy shift in treatment-planning focus. You didn't have to be doing a lot in order to make a good income back in the day. The landscape has changed. People are aggressive, they over-treat, they utilize this method, that tactic to "sell" more dentistry to the patient. It is sometimes beneficial. It is often borderline quackery or unethical. These things wouldn't be happening if the economic future of our profession wasn't in jeopardy. Yes, people will always need dental work, but we have more and more people doing it, and each of them is trying to do more and more of it themselves. I don't want to be around when the final straw breaks the camel's back. Unethical dentists is a concern of mine as well. Dentists that feel the squeeze and try to find new ways to increase their income by overtreating patients. It's unfortunate, but I know it happens out there. My principals and I have talked about this, and we overall think it's a short term "solution" - meaning if you overtreat your patients, and you keep doing this, it will come back to you. Patients will elave and go to the dentist they know does conservative, ethical dentistry. This is likely partially idealistic viewing, but we've had patients refer us their friends because they know we're honest and have their best interest at heart.
  4. Staff can be great or a thorn in your side, depending on the staff. Inpersonally like all my staff and enjoy our interactions, as well as my relationship with my principal dentists. I like working in a team with other people compared to working in isolation / independently.
  5. I liked the operative component of it, while still having regular hours. I work 9-4, 9-5, or 8-3, 5 days per week, and will choose to go to four days within a year or two. I did consider medicine, but thought dentistry was more the type of life I wanted to live. Medicine has many interesting components to it, but its mainly diagnose and write a prescription, or if you're a surgeon its, do occassional surgery, with lots of pre and post op, and crazy hours. Not for me. I can't fathom being an accountant looking at columns of numbers, a banker toiling on excel spreadsheets working crazy hours, a programmer staring at a computer. Brutal careers IMO. Dentistry just fits everything I wanted in life.
  6. member_225, on 18 Aug 2016 - 11:16 PM, said: With incorporating your dental practice, income taxes on your corporation are 10-15.5%, then you take a $65,000 salary and save for retirement within your dental Corp. A corporation is a separate legal entity, that has income tax like a person does. Apple can be a corporation, with 50,000 employees, and shareholders own apple's company through stock. Dentists can form a corporation, where the revenue is dental work, instead of selling iphones (in the case of apple). The dental pay is paid to the corporation. The corporation can then pay the dentist whatever the shareholders decide (and the shareholder is the dentist), and any money left in the corpation (ie. not paid out) is taxed only at small business tax, rather than personal income tax levels. Personal income tax at the 100-200k yearly mark is ~50%, whereas small corporation tax is ~11%. You net pay much less in taxes, bec the corp pays 11% on any money remaining inside the corp, and the dentist's perosnal pay is taxed less than the 50%, becuase they have a lower reported income. Example: Associate bills $170k in a year. No corporation: Associate pays ~50% tax, and keeps $85k With corporation: Associate pays themselves 70k from the corparation as personal salary or dividends. The income tax on 70k income is 27.75% (compared to 50% if 170k salary), so they keep $50,750 personally. Now, they paid themselves a salary of 70k from the corp, so there corp has 100k in income to report for the year. The corp pays 11% tax (because that's the small business corp tax rate if income is less than $500,000), and the corp keeps $89,000. So by incorporating, you've kept 51k+89k = 140k out of the 170k you made (I did these calcs on the fly on my phone, so possible I missed / screwed something up, but you get the idea). Money you keep in your corp can be dividended to parents (lower income tax) invested in stocks etc.
  7. I'm starting a new thread where we can share and discuss the great things about dentistry. Perhaps if this thread grows enough, it can become a sticky thread (via the moderators), and predentists can have something inspiring and positive to read at the top of PM101. I'll start by posting my message form a recent, other thread, below. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am a dentist, who graduated from Schulich in 2014. This thread has gotten out of control. There are a handful of posters who are knowledgeable (either dentists or dental students) and then those looking from the other side of the pond (predentists) that are worried and perhaps misinformed in parts. Predentists: I understand the worry. I heard it when I was in dental school too. But this thread has been blown way, way out of proportion. A few painters seem upset about things, and the comments and their facts are spiralling down. I work in Oakville and Woodbridge ON, both close to Toronto. One practice was a new practice four years ago, one is with a long established single dentist practice. I am a competent dentist, I'm cautiously quick at restorative, always felt comfortable with endo (root canal therapy) and enjoy prosthodontics (dentures). I would put myself in the top 1/3 of my class clinically, but I am not gifted, just a regular recent grad. I produce on any normal day 1000-2000. If I had to pick an average, I'd say $1500. On a slow day it could be 600 (my lowest day in a year) and on a good day with a denture insertion for example it could be $3500 (my highest day this year was around $4200). I get paid 40% of collections and don't know a single friend working for less then 40%, although I'm sure someone is. My first year of private practice I made $170,000. With tuition tax credits, I barely paid income tax. This helped wipe out a huge Amin t of student debt for me (I paid for dental school myself with summer work and loans). My second year I'm on track to make slightly more. I keep in touch with all my dental school friends, and my best friends and I talk production numbers honestly, it's not a taboo subject for us. The lowest I know is a friend working full time at a dental practice on Liberty village in Toronto, and he's making around $110,000. With incorporating your dental practice, income taxes on your corporation are 10-15.5%, then you take a $65,000 salary and save for retirement within your dental Corp. It really doesn't take much to produce $1000 per day. I'm not just saying that. It's nothing. Even slow practices in downtown Toronto. There is crazy gloom and doom in this thread. I won't call anyone out, but some commenters are simply not accurate here. Dentistry is a ton of fun too. I can't imagine sitting at a desk. When I have breaks in between patients, even long ones, I'm either working up a case, writing notes, or watching Netflix, snapchat, Facebook on my phone etc. I plan to work 4 days per week soon. Even looking forward, as bad as they make it out to be, you'll always make a pretty good salary in a great job. Even if you saw 3 patients per day you could make a great salary. You can afford a mortgage, you can marry, have kids (future dentists), it's a great life. I'll stop by tomorrow to answer questions for a new grad if anyone has them, though they probably won't be as long as this post was. Cheer up friends, it's gonna be good.
  8. It does make a huge difference, and it's a unique advantage to being a professional. Your investment banker friends can't incorporate themselves, and they'll pay half of their income to taxes. As dentists, we can legally and ethically reduce our tax burden immensely, huge perk to the job.
  9. With incorporating your dental practice, income taxes on your corporation are 10-15.5%, then you take a $65,000 salary and save for retirement within your dental Corp. A corporation is a separate legal entity, that has income tax like a person does. Apple can be a corporation, with 50,000 employees, and shareholders own apple's company through stock. Dentists can form a corporation, where the revenue is dental work, instead of selling iphones (in the case of apple). The dental pay is paid to the corporation. The corporation can then pay the dentist whatever the shareholders decide (and the shareholder is the dentist), and any money left in the corpation (ie. not paid out) is taxed only at small business tax, rather than personal income tax levels. Personal income tax at the 100-200k yearly mark is ~50%, whereas small corporation tax is ~11%. You net pay much less in taxes, bec the corp pays 11% on any money remaining inside the corp, and the dentist's perosnal pay is taxed less than the 50%, becuase they have a lower reported income. Example: Associate bills $170k in a year. No corporation: Associate pays ~50% tax, and keeps $85k With corporation: Associate pays themselves 70k from the corparation as personal salary or dividends. The income tax on 70k income is 27.75% (compared to 50% if 170k salary), so they keep $50,750 personally. Now, they paid themselves a salary of 70k from the corp, so there corp has 100k in income to report for the year. The corp pays 11% tax (because that's the small business corp tax rate if income is less than $500,000), and the corp keeps $89,000. So by incorporating, you've kept 51k+89k = 140k out of the 170k you made (I did these calcs on the fly on my phone, so possible I missed / screwed something up, but you get the idea). Money you keep in your corp can be dividended to parents (lower income tax) invested in stocks etc.
  10. I am a dentist, who graduated from Schulich in 2014. This thread has gotten out of control. There are a handful of posters who are knowledgeable (either dentists or dental students) and then those looking from the ther side of the pond (predentists) that are worried and perhaps misinformed in parts. Predentists: I understand the worry. I heard it when I was in dental school too. But this thread has been blown way, way out of proportion. A few painters seem upset about things, and the comments and their facts are spiralling down. I work in Oakville and Woodbridge ON, both close to Toronto. One practice was a new practice four years ago, one is with a long established single dentist practice. I am a competent dentist, I'm cautiously quick at restorative, always felt comfortable with endo (root canal therapy) and enjoy prosthodontics (dentures). I would put myself in the top 1/3 of my class clinically, but I am not gifted, just a regular recent grad. I produce on any normal day 1000-2000. If I had to pick an average, I'd say $1500. On a slow day it could be 600 (my lowest day in a year) and on a good day with a denture insertion for example it could be $3500 (my highest day this year was around $4200). I get paid 40% of collections and don't know a single friend working for less then 40%, although I'm sure someone is. My first year of private practice I made $170,000. With tuition tax credits, I barely paid income tax. This helped wipe out a huge Amin t of student debt for me (I paid for dental school myself with summer work and loans). My second year I'm on track to make slightly more. I keep in touch with all my dental school friends, and my best friends and I talk production numbers honestly, it's not a taboo subject for us. The lowest I know is a friend working full time at a dental practice on Liberty village in Toronto, and he's making around $110,000. With incorporating your dental practice, income taxes on your corporation are 10-15.5%, then you take a $65,000 salary and save for retirement within your dental Corp. It really doesn't take much to produce $1000 per day. I'm not just saying that. It's nothing. Even slow practices in downtown Toronto. There is crazy gloom and doom in this thread. I won't call anyone out, but some commenters are simply not accurate here. Dentistry is a ton of fun too. I can't imagine sitting at a desk. When I have breaks in between patients, even long ones, I'm either working up a case, writing notes, or watching Netflix, snapchat, Facebook on my phone etc. I plan to work 4 days per week soon. Even looking forward, as bad as they make it out to be, you'll always make a pretty good salary in a great job. Even if you saw 3 patients per day you could make a great salary. You can afford a mortgage, you can marry, have kids (future dentists), it's a great life. I'll stop by tomorrow to answer questions for a new grad if anyone has them, though they probably won't be as long as this post was. Cheer up friends, it's gonna be good.
×
×
  • Create New...