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malkynn

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malkynn last won the day on August 25

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  1. Yep. I work in finance alongside some big money guys, it’s absolutely insane. Conversely, it’s actually pretty easy to make a decently high income without much risk or crazy stress. Almost all of my “normal job” friends make low 6 figures. ~100K is pretty standard for most professionals with a bit of education a bit of work ethic and some experience. It’s when you start aiming for over 100K that it starts costing you in terms of major trade offs. Its important to examine the value of those trade offs closely. Money is great, but not if it’s costing you happiness and health.
  2. Yep. There is simply no easy, low risk path to high incomes. If you are making a lot of money, you are trading off something to get it and that trade of is often risk, stress, hours, or all of the above.
  3. On the flip side, there are very very few professional jobs that allow you easily to work part time hours and still work at the top of your game and make a great living. There are trade offs with every career, especially competitive large income careers. Banking has its unique stresses and challenges. The difference is that the investment to work in banking is so low that you have the option to leave if it’s a poor fit, and the skills are highly transferable to a number of other careers. With dentistry, you are practically signed on for life with extremely limited alternatives if it doesn’t end up working out the way you had hoped, and a financial noose around your neck for many years, especially if trained abroad. Its amazing if it’s right for you, if you can find your place in the market where you can be happy and profitable and work with great people. It’s just that the current climate makes that more challenging and bad dental jobs are utterly miserable. Again, every career has its trade offs, it’s just hard for a very young person with virtually no experience or knowledge of what their own limits are to determine if those trade offs will be worth it when they’re signing on the dotted line for upwards of a half million in debt (plus interest).
  4. The world is so much bigger than just medical careers. Its not that other careers are better, it’s that it’s hard to know what you want without any experience. Several hundred thousand is A LOT to gamble on a career that you know little about when there’s is a whole world of careers out there that you could do with a fraction of the investment. These HUGE student loans make sense when what you are buying is a very secure high income compared to other careers, but when dentistry requires as much business savvy as other industries, then where is the benefit compared to other less investment-intensive careers? I could make more in a career in finance with a fraction of the education and none of the student debt and it would probably take less business savvy than being a top performing dentist in the current business climate. Again, this isn’t to say that dentistry is a bad career. In fact, it can be an amazing career. However, so can so many other industries, and few of them will require you to sign away your financial freedom and flexibility. I think it’s a legitimate question to self reflect on why one would choose dentistry with so little life experience and perspective. If you look at the financial risk profile of the career, it’s one that you want to be damn sure of before signing on the dotted line of the bank loan that will own you for at least a decade. I spent two hours this afternoon strategizing how to host fancy dinners with dentists and prevent it from turning into a raging bitch-fest of negativity. Do not underestimate how difficult this job is, on multiple fronts. So are all careers, but few require the astronomical risk of upfront investment that dentistry does. I know a lot of stressed out dentist. I know A LOT of dentists stressed out about money. It’s not a guaranteed path to financial security. Decide carefully. If you are a weirdo like me who deeply enjoys repetition, emotional confrontation, micro surgery under time constraints (few of us get to learn this beforehand, i was lucky working in neuro for 6 years), personal finance, and small business management, then cool, you may deeply enjoy it and not suffer the rampant depression and addiction in our industry. Just...take this decision seriously. There’s no “take backs” once you sign on to nearly half a million in debt. That’s it, your freedom is GONE. That’s not a small deal. Choose wisely.
  5. Just a point to consider: A lot of people point to the fact that if you start work sooner that you will make more money, thereby offsetting the enormous additional cost of foreign dental school. However, if you look at it differently: it also means more years that you *must* work as a dentist in order to make the trade off work. Personally, I only have so many years of dentistry in me. I already resent how many of them have been dedicated to debt. We’re all different, but it’s a perspective worth thinking about.
  6. malkynn

    The slow decay of dentistry

    Hahaha I *just* read the email a minute ago.
  7. malkynn

    The slow decay of dentistry

    Jeeeeeeezuz That’s crazy.
  8. malkynn

    The slow decay of dentistry

    Umm...every ex I've ever dated has made over 6 figures, several of them without even having an undergrad degree, some had pensions, almost all had benefits, and very few worked evenings or weekends like many dentists do. NONE needed to go into mortgage sized debt either. I jokingly refer to my DH as my "sugar daddy" because he earns 6 figures plus a full pension, plus full benefits, plus paid sick days and vacation days or leave if my mom needs care, or if he feels like volunteering, or if his dog gets sick...you get the idea. Lets not pretend that dentistry or other professional degree is the only option for making a 6 figure income. If you are smart enough and hard working enough to cut it as a successful dentist, you are good enough to be very successful in a wide range of careers. You can't compare the career options of a new grad to the career options of a dental grad. That's comparing apples to oranges. Compare a dental grad with a mortgage sized debt to another brilliant grad who is at least 4 years out and has worked their fucking ass off to develop their career. I bet the non-dental grad is actually in a better position financially, especially if they've slaved as brutally hard as the dental student did for 4 years...while making money the whole time instead of *paying* to slave...with interest. Just because the non-professional-degree path to success is less obvious doesn't mean it's a bad path and can't be as successful as dentistry. Don't do dentistry unless you think you will love it. Period. Any other reason is stupid. I love dentistry, I do. I'm glad I chose it. However, I'm also glad I don't have kids, I have a spouse with a stable job with benefits, and I have the flexibility to take time off, change my hours, or change jobs if I want to/need to. I can't fathom the pressure of doing this job as a primary bread winner in a family with kids. The stress would be astronomical. I work in dental consulting in addition to clinical dentistry. I talk to A LOT of dentists about their stresses, especially their financial stresses. Do not underestimate how difficult a life you've chosen if you choose dentistry. DO NOT do it just because you want "a chance of making 100k+"; there are a thousand other ways to make 6 figures. Do this job because you want to do this job.
  9. On the flip side: I make that working only 3 days a week, under ideal circumstances with near total autonomy, flexibility and working with an incredible mentor. OP, I would personally never ever do this and it’s hard to know without some experience practicing if this is the right choice for you. I’m not saying people shouldn’t do it, I’m just saying that 4 or 6 years is a long time to sacrifice freedom after a long 4 years of dental school, and at a prime time in your life for making long term decisions and plans. The financial incentive might be worth it, it might not. I was making high $1XX,000 right out of school working 4 days a week, well over $200,000 by my third year with some additional hours. I’m 5 years out and had I wanted to own, I would have bought by now. It puts you waaaaay behind in learning the ins and outs of managing a private clinic if ownership is what you aim for. I have friends who make more than I do and I have friends who make A LOT less. It’s hard to know in advance which you will be. This move is a good hedge against making a lot less, especially in a worsening market for dentists, so right now might be the ideal time to do it, who knows. I still maintain that it’s difficult to know yourself as a dentist to know if this kind of commitment is actually worth it for you. That’s a lot of freedom, flexibility, and autonomy to give up in a career where those are some of the main benefits. I’m not trying to discourage anyone, my reasons that this would be undesirable for me are my own personal reasons, but it’s worth contemplating why someone might not want to do this before signing up. Think carefully.
  10. Yeah, I think you would have to work A LOT to be able to produce that amount. The only associates I know making over 300K are goddamn machines working 6 days a week at break-neck speed and doing a lot of high-yield procedures, like placing implants at multiple clinics. Maybe some associates have managed it, it’s definitely possible. I would be very curious to see how they’ve pulled it off though. North or not, if you are working fee-for-service, then you have to work A LOT to make a massive salary. Working an underserved area can be much more lucrative than working an overly saturated area because you will be busier. However, unless you are getting paid more per procedure or getting some kind of Northern bonus, then I would assume the actual work itself wouldn’t be more lucrative than a busy job in the South. I wouldn’t just assume that North=“easy money” and South=“crappy income”. It’s not than simple. North=“higher demand for service” and South=“more challenging to find jobs with high demand”. The last time I saw a job posting in either Yellowknife or Iqaluit (I can’t remember which), it would have been a substantial pay cut for me compared to what I make now at my fully booked job where I charge substantially more than the average. I actually *want* to move up north, but first I’m tackling my debt and saving a nest egg before I seriously consider taking a pay cut and moving to an astronomically high cost-of-living area. Granted, I’m specifically talking about places so north that everything needs to be flown in for half the year. There’s a big difference between some places that are considered “North.” So yeah, I think Northern work is important and worth considering and has a lot of value professionally, personally, and potentially financially, but I wouldn’t look at it as a simple solution to anything.
  11. I wouldn't pay that amount to become a dentist. I love my job, but it's still a job.
  12. malkynn

    The slow decay of dentistry

    I’m going to politely stop participating in the debate because it’s starting to aggravate me.
  13. malkynn

    The slow decay of dentistry

    Sorry if I don’t find it so funny. There’s a huge difference between getting work done by an international grad who is licensed to work in a country where the standards are incredibly high vs getting work done in a country with extremely lax standards and virtually no legal recourse for mistreatment of patients. Comparing my two statements as equivalent is wholely inaccurate and not particularly appreciated. If there are problems with ITDs on average, then that absolutely is an issue that needs to be addressed, and it sucks if patient care suffers in the meantime. However, I’ve seen plenty of sketchy shit from Canadian dentists, so I’m not about to support measures that brand Canadian grads as fundamentally superior because I don’t think it helps the problem. That doesn’t mean that I don’t think that better measures to evaluate or train foreign dentists is a good idea, that doesn’t mean I think the equivalency process is sufficient, I’m just unwilling to paint them all as inferior. Now excuse me while I go prepare to handle the nightmare case of dentistry from Mexico that landed in my chair, referred to me by a respected denturologist who is at a loss at to how to handle the cluster fuck that the guy came back with. So yeah, sorry if I don’t find it funny.
  14. malkynn

    The slow decay of dentistry

    You realize that you are talking about the same patient base that generally thinks it's reasonable and low risk to get their implants in Mexico, right??? I think people here are drastically over estimating the concern that patients have with respect to where and how their dentists were trained. I don't think many of them give it too much thought, nor do I think that knowing about accredited vs non accredited programs would change people's decision making process when it comes to choosing a dentist, which is primarily determined by location and availability of parking. The ones who do care will primarily look for online reviews and recommendations from friends and family, and probably won't be dissuaded from someone who comes with glowing reviews just because they were trained in a foreign country at a non-accredited school. Do you genuinely believe that all dentists from non-accredited schools should be branded as inferior in some way? Would this matter to anyone if it wasn't creating a over-saturation problem? I get that people want to be protectionist, and I don't disagree with it at all even though it won't happen. However, let's not conflate wanting to protect Canadian dentists with character assassinating foreign dentists. One of my dearest friends was trained in India, was an excellent clinician, and now retired from practice, teaches at a top school in the US. I would sooner trust her with my teeth over any of you here, no offense.
  15. malkynn

    The slow decay of dentistry

    Most patients don’t care. In 5 years I’ve had maybe a dozen people ask where I went to dental school. It’s also not permissible for licensed dentists to market themselves as more qualified than other dentists with the same license. Our advertising standards are incredibly stringent. Granted, most dentists with a website flagrantly violate these rules, but the rules are there nonetheless.
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