Jump to content
Premed 101 Forums
Sign in to follow this  
Leon

Question Re Salary

Recommended Posts

So the Paro agreement for Ontario states :

POSITION/CLASSIFICATION EFFECTIVE JULY 1, 2017 EFFECTIVE JULY 1, 2018 EFFECTIVE JULY 1, 2019
PGY1 $57,967.29 $59,068.67 $60,190.98
PGY2 $64,088.23 $65,081.60 $66,090.36
PGY3 $69,032.97 $69,999.43

So my question is, does this scale apply to when you enter residency? Eg for current pgy1s like myself, does next year amount to the 2017 amount or the 2018 amount? If the latter then we would be gaining about 1K each year as we go through residency whereas if it's the former we make a one time gain of 1K ish until the next negotiation. Does anyone know the answer? Thanks!

http://www.myparo.ca/your-contract/#annual-salary-scale

Edited by Leon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Leon said:

So the Paro agreement for Ontario states :

POSITION/CLASSIFICATION EFFECTIVE JULY 1, 2017 EFFECTIVE JULY 1, 2018 EFFECTIVE JULY 1, 2019
PGY1 $57,967.29 $59,068.67 $60,190.98
PGY2 $64,088.23 $65,081.60 $66,090.36
PGY3 $69,032.97 $69,999.43

So my question is, does this scale apply to when you enter residency? Eg for current pgy1s like myself, does next year amount to the 2017 amount or the 2018 amount? If the latter then we would be gaining about 1K each year as we go through residency whereas if it's the former we make a one time gain of 1K ish until the next negotiation. Does anyone know the answer? Thanks!

http://www.myparo.ca/your-contract/#annual-salary-scale

It moves with each year - so you would earn your the 2018 PGY2 salary when you are a PGY2. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Leon said:

Thanks rmorelan! That makes a change to my budget for the better hah. 

No problem :)  ha, you are going to have to change your description - not a medical student anymore 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, PhD2MD said:

Do we know anything about what's happening after 2019? Is it safe to assume ~1k increase/year to keep up with inflation?

That would be the base case scenario imo. I think PARO and the academic hospitals have a collective negotiated agreement that refreshes every 5 years. The current agreement is effect from 2016 to 2020. There may be adjustments to the scale based on the outcome of the agreement that would be outside the normal indexed to inflation rhetoric. 

Similarly, the PARO-equivalent in Quebec, FMRQ, just signed a six-year collective agreement with the Ministry of Health for 2016 to 2021. The residents will obtain the same increases that unionized public sector employees had negotiated in their own separate contract; that is, 5.25% increase for the first five years.  For the sixth year of the contract, there is a trailer clause, suggesting that the residents will receive whatever increase the public sector employees would receive that year as well. 5.25% is well above the normal rate of inflation 2-3%; but it has been justified on the grounds that Quebec medical residents are the lowest paid residents in Canada - playing some catch-up if you will :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, la marzocco said:

That would be the base case scenario imo. I think PARO and the academic hospitals have a collective negotiated agreement that refreshes every 5 years. The current agreement is effect from 2016 to 2020. There may be adjustments to the scale based on the outcome of the agreement that would be outside the normal indexed to inflation rhetoric. 

Similarly, the PARO-equivalent in Quebec, FMRQ, just signed a six-year collective agreement with the Ministry of Health for 2016 to 2021. The residents will obtain the same increases that unionized public sector employees had negotiated in their own separate contract; that is, 5.25% increase for the first five years.  For the sixth year of the contract, there is a trailer clause, suggesting that the residents will receive whatever increase the public sector employees would receive that year as well. 5.25% is well above the normal rate of inflation 2-3%; but it has been justified on the grounds that Quebec medical residents are the lowest paid residents in Canada - playing some catch-up if you will :) 

Yeah I would say nothing is really safe - there have been times when there simply no increase at all for multiple years, and we have new incoming government one way or the other - with potentially both looking for some cost savings measures. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You guys probably saw this before, but doesn't hurt to re-share for others looking at salary information :) 

At PGY-5, Quebec medical residents only got $63K before stipends/calls omg -_- yea.. that 5.25% increase is def needed LOL 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, la marzocco said:

You guys probably saw this before, but doesn't hurt to re-share for others looking at salary information :) 156585233_ScreenShot2018-06-04at10_45_16PM.png.0bf2cd6c02d81c8493d3b68f1b03d98e.png

At PGY-5, Quebec medical residents only got $63K before stipends/calls omg -_- yea.. that 5.25% increase is def needed LOL 

The cost of living in Quebec is very low, you could find a nice apartment (1 bedroom) in Plateau in Montreal all included for 700-800$. In Ontario, at least in Downtown Toronto, you could not find anything decent below 1500 K per month, with nothing included, so basically half of my pay goes to the rent lol 

I wholeheartedly support the FMRQ's movement for salary increase!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, cacaonibs said:

Why would there be PGY-6, -7, -8, and -9 years? Aren't they fellows?

well PGY6 is neuro surg, cardiac surg and also cardiology as examples. I mean technically cardiology would be a fellowship but still ha 

Also there are a number of accredited fellowships that just carry on the same scale - technically those people are still residents. In radiology for instance you can get to the PGY9 if you do the full neuroradiology and interventional neuroradiology routes. 

You can also have people doing graduate studies within their degrees. If that is a part of the clinical scientist program it can also add more years under that system. Easily can get to PGY7 or 8 that way. 

Believe it or not I know a PGY-10 - someone that has been a resident so long they are actually off the chart literally. They get paid as a PGY9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, The Ace of Spades said:

I shudder at the thought of a PGY-9 year...

Ha - how does that saying go - if you enjoy your job you never work a day in your life? Some people just seem to keep going forever at that level 

(says that guy doing 2-3 more years post residency.....and post residency fellows earn less than residents....yeah I should be quite now :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, rmorelan said:

well PGY6 is neuro surg, cardiac surg and also cardiology as examples. I mean technically cardiology would be a fellowship but still ha 

Also there are a number of accredited fellowships that just carry on the same scale - technically those people are still residents. In radiology for instance you can get to the PGY9 if you do the full neuroradiology and interventional neuroradiology routes. 

You can also have people doing graduate studies within their degrees. If that is a part of the clinical scientist program it can also add more years under that system. Easily can get to PGY7 or 8 that way. 

Believe it or not I know a PGY-10 - someone that has been a resident so long they are actually off the chart literally. They get paid as a PGY9

.. ok.. I think I will stick with family medicine.. :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow didn't realize NL and the maritimes were so far ahead of ontario. Correct me if im wrong, but living expenses are lower there as well? Sounds like a sweet combo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, PhD2MD said:

Wow didn't realize NL and the maritimes were so far ahead of ontario. Correct me if im wrong, but living expenses are lower there as well? Sounds like a sweet combo.

NL spent like drunken sailors over the past 10 years because of oil money. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, rmorelan said:

 

(says that guy doing 2-3 more years post residency.....and post residency fellows earn less than residents....yeah I should be quite now :)

I didn't :)

I got paid purely based on assist fees and covering cases off the board prn. Didnt do any call (although I could have covered staff call if I had wanted) or locums. Made about 120k I think. It was a pretty sweet year. 

But I know other fellows who took a 20k pay cut from PGY-5 salary and had to cover call as basically a staff without getting any extra pay. Staff would scoop up all the cash. 

Fellowship varies depending on how big of jerks the staff are. Hahaha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, NLengr said:

 I didn't :)

I got paid purely based on assist fees and covering cases off the board prn. Didnt do any call (although I could have covered staff call if I had wanted) or locums. Made about 120k I think. It was a pretty sweet year. 

But I know other fellows who took a 20k pay cut from PGY-5 salary and had to cover call as basically a staff without getting any extra pay. Staff would scoop up all the cash. 

Fellowship varies depending on how big of jerks the staff are. Hahaha

Are the policies that govern than institution specific, or program specific?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, NLengr said:

I didn't :)

I got paid purely based on assist fees and covering cases off the board prn. Didnt do any call (although I could have covered staff call if I had wanted) or locums. Made about 120k I think. It was a pretty sweet year. 

But I know other fellows who took a 20k pay cut from PGY-5 salary and had to cover call as basically a staff without getting any extra pay. Staff would scoop up all the cash. 

Fellowship varies depending on how big of jerks the staff are. Hahaha

ha true - and more often you end up in the under paid situation I think than a better one - in part they can get away with it because you are so close to the finishing line, it is only one year, and usually there is a promise of connections etc to get an  end job. 

that is a pretty sweet deal - well played, well played indeed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, PhD2MD said:

Are the policies that govern than institution specific, or program specific?

I mean it could be either but often it is program specific. You are not paid by any central organization like PARO after all so everything can be worked out a bit differently. 

Where I am going it is institution specific. All the fellows are paid the same 78500 per year next year. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My comment below isn't meant to be inflammatory, but I am interested to understand why the pay is so low compared to NPs and PAs while we are in residency. In terms of skillset, I do not feel an entry-level resident would be any less qualified since the aim of UGME is to produce an "undifferentiated" physician. In the same vein, I do recognize that breakeven happens quickly after you become an attending and the pay-off of being physician quickly comes through, but it seems crazy to me for those who want to specialize and subspecialize into PGY-6... onwards + fellows are still compensated at such a level.

I guess I answered my own question? But, it really does suck to have to bear the grind for 10 odd years if you're specializing and further subspecializing.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, la marzocco said:

Similarly, the PARO-equivalent in Quebec, FMRQ, just signed a six-year collective agreement with the Ministry of Health for 2016 to 2021. The residents will obtain the same increases that unionized public sector employees had negotiated in their own separate contract; that is, 5.25% increase for the first five years.  For the sixth year of the contract, there is a trailer clause, suggesting that the residents will receive whatever increase the public sector employees would receive that year as well. 5.25% is well above the normal rate of inflation 2-3%; but it has been justified on the grounds that Quebec medical residents are the lowest paid residents in Canada - playing some catch-up if you will :) 

I don't mean to rain on your parade but I'm pretty sure the 5,25% raise is over 5 years and not per year for 5 years. What the public workers got was 1,5% the first year, 1,75% the second year and 2% the third year. For the last 2 years, they got pay scale adjustments and one-time payments. That's actually below inflation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Snowmen said:

I don't mean to rain on your parade but I'm pretty sure the 5,25% raise is over 5 years and not per year for 5 years. What the public workers got was 1,5% the first year, 1,75% the second year and 2% the third year. For the last 2 years, they got pay scale adjustments and one-time payments. That's actually below inflation.

Interesting, they are also doing a review of the PGY-1 starting salary from what I heard. Need to see how this all works out when they publish the new salary table. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, la marzocco said:

My comment below isn't meant to be inflammatory, but I am interested to understand why the pay is so low compared to NPs and PAs while we are in residency. In terms of skillset, I do not feel an entry-level resident would be any less qualified since the aim of UGME is to produce an "undifferentiated" physician. In the same vein, I do recognize that breakeven happens quickly after you become an attending and the pay-off of being physician quickly comes through, but it seems crazy to me for those who want to specialize and subspecialize into PGY-6... onwards + fellows are still compensated at such a level.

I guess I answered my own question? But, it really does suck to have to bear the grind for 10 odd years if you're specializing and further subspecializing.. 

in part it is the future income so we don't complain I guess - but it is also that NP and PAs usually don't have any actual teaching/education component of their daily work. I mean yes I am on service 7:30-5:30 every day but as an example 2 hours of that a day are teaching which both pulls me out of service and also requires a staff to also doing no clinical work for that hour plus prep time. Then I have 4 more hours off work for half day each week. Then there is teaching associated with reviewing etc. 

It does seem to become harder to defend the further you go though - an PGY 5/6 is operating at staff level most of the time. 

 

Edited by rmorelan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×