brady23 Posted July 1, 2018 Report Share Posted July 1, 2018 I've been crunching some numbers just for fun based on OHIP: A typical 15-minute appointment is usually billed as an A007 ($33.70). A family doc who sees ~25 patients per day for 5 days per week would make 25 x 33.70 x 5 x 52 = ~$220,000 per year After overhead, this becomes: $220,000 x 0.7 = $154,000, and post-tax, this would be $102,000. Are my numbers right? I know this is just an estimation (as there are other billing codes), but for some reason, that seems awfully low - the hourly rate for an FP is ~$135, with no vacation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellorie Posted July 1, 2018 Report Share Posted July 1, 2018 Most psychiatrists that I know don't manage to cram 3 units into every single hour. 2 units/hour is more realistic. Also, FPs have all kinds of different funding models other than straight OHIP billings, and many do procedures or have other kinds of income streams in their practice. brady23 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady23 Posted July 1, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2018 38 minutes ago, ellorie said: Most psychiatrists that I know don't manage to cram 3 units into every single hour. 2 units/hour is more realistic. Also, FPs have all kinds of different funding models other than straight OHIP billings, and many do procedures or have other kinds of income streams in their practice. Thank you! That's fair. I know it's harder to join FHTs because the government placed restrictions on those, so I think fee for service is still the main OHIP method Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medigeek Posted July 1, 2018 Report Share Posted July 1, 2018 You're not just billing 33$ for each patient. In many cases you bill higher than that. There's also other billings you do/non ohip billings etc. I believe the average is 310ish for billings which includes part timer. Hopefully the FHOs are a part of the negotiations with the new more reasonable government. brady23 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady23 Posted July 1, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2018 8 hours ago, medigeek said: You're not just billing 33$ for each patient. In many cases you bill higher than that. There's also other billings you do/non ohip billings etc. I believe the average is 310ish for billings which includes part timer. Hopefully the FHOs are a part of the negotiations with the new more reasonable government. Yes! FHTs seem like a great model, and I don't agree with restrictions to join them on new grads, hopefully the new government does something to improve this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleDaisy Posted July 1, 2018 Report Share Posted July 1, 2018 13 hours ago, medigeek said: You're not just billing 33$ for each patient. In many cases you bill higher than that. There's also other billings you do/non ohip billings etc. I believe the average is 310ish for billings which includes part timer. Hopefully the FHOs are a part of the negotiations with the new more reasonable government. The average salary for family physicians in Ontario is around 310 K include those who work part-time (higher percentage of GPs who work part-time compared to other specialties) The FHT GPs are definitely making more than 300 K annually. brady23 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
member_225 Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 7 hours ago, LittleDaisy said: The average salary for family physicians in Ontario is around 310 K include those who work part-time (higher percentage of GPs who work part-time compared to other specialties) The FHT GPs are definitely making more than 300 K annually. salary or billings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady23 Posted July 2, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 1 hour ago, member_225 said: salary or billings? Billings. After overhead and taxes, you come out with about 45% of your billings on average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMislove Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 21 minutes ago, brady23 said: Billings. After overhead and taxes, you come out with about 45% of your billings on average. Holy shit so like 140k almost, not far off from government manager positions lol, surprising to say the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady23 Posted July 2, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 55 minutes ago, IMislove said: Holy shit so like 140k almost, not far off from government manager positions lol, surprising to say the least. Yup! Fee for Service definitely seems like a stressful compensation model lol, I think capitation/FHOs would be better for the long-run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 6 hours ago, IMislove said: Holy shit so like 140k almost, not far off from government manager positions lol, surprising to say the least. after taxes, and assuming you take it all as salary That would be a well paid government official I would think - someone that would take a long time to reach that position, and probably before taxes as well(?) We don't pay a lot of government people 230K after all Similar assumptions would put many specialists take home pay after everything at 175K (with a lower proportional overhead of 15% but same tax situation). Assuming 350K salary. But again that makes assumptions most doctors aren't really following, and that is all in both cases still a lot of money. Persephone 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMislove Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 5 hours ago, rmorelan said: after taxes, and assuming you take it all as salary That would be a well paid government official I would think - someone that would take a long time to reach that position, and probably before taxes as well(?) We don't pay a lot of government people 230K after all Similar assumptions would put many specialists take home pay after everything at 175K (with a lower proportional overhead of 15% but same tax situation). Assuming 350K salary. But again that makes assumptions most doctors aren't really following, and that is all in both cases still a lot of money. Right no that’s my bad, pre tax so I guess closer to 100k after tax. Still, for 30-40k difference and having a 830-430 M-F job, they are pretty cushy. I already knew being a government employee I was lucky, but damn some of them never had any other job and complain when things change just a bit to make work a little harder. This work( medicine) will be more challenging and more meaningful which in my opinion is more important for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloh Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 100k+ in government is very easy. Just look at the various sunshine lists. And what you don't take into account is the generous pension and benefits. Most can easily retire rich at 55, barely having worked their life. Government pays very well. FFS models are common across the country, because the government can't afford to pay MDs a salary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleDaisy Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 33 minutes ago, bloh said: 100k+ in government is very easy. Just look at the various sunshine lists. And what you don't take into account is the generous pension and benefits. Most can easily retire rich at 55, barely having worked their life. Government pays very well. FFS models are common across the country, because the government can't afford to pay MDs a salary. 100 K+ in government is very easy, but I think that not everyone climbs up to the ladder that easily. Most of the governmental officials make around 40k-60 k and stay where they are. I find medicine much more interesting than sitting in an office and deal with bureaucrats M-F 9-5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithril Posted July 3, 2018 Report Share Posted July 3, 2018 25 patients per day is quite low. Most of my patients don't take 15 minutes. There are also other incentives like chronic care billing codes, mental health codes, and private form fees. brady23 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady23 Posted July 3, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Mithril said: 25 patients per day is quite low. Most of my patients don't take 15 minutes. There are also other incentives like chronic care billing codes, mental health codes, and private form fees. Chronic care billing codes - I'm not sure if we have them in Ontario? I think seeing more than 25 patients per day would burn me out haha but finishing early is a bonus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleDaisy Posted July 3, 2018 Report Share Posted July 3, 2018 17 hours ago, brady23 said: Chronic care billing codes - I'm not sure if we have them in Ontario? I think seeing more than 25 patients per day would burn me out haha but finishing early is a bonus We do! ....Once you get to know most of your patients, some of them take less than 15 minutes (even for a resident physician)! I wouldn't worry about billing in primary care for now. To brady23, I noticed that you posted a lot about specialties choices and remuneration as a MS1. I think that the best way to know which specialty you want to do, is through shadowing and talking to residents and staff physicians in preclerkship. UofT does offer a lot of preclerkship mentoring. Everyone in this form is biased in a way, as we all love our specialty and sometimes are more opinionated. Just my two cents brady23 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdy Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 (Whoops, replies to a super old thread sorry for the zombie thread, everyone!) There’s a lot of work that needs doing that isn’t directly remunerated, so that’s worth remembering. No one’s paying you for charting, reading labs, yelling at your computer, or otherwise doing all the things that seeing patients involves. There are other provinces besides Ontario, too. In New Brunswick, a code 1 (similar to an A007) is $47, and you can bill for emails and phone calls with rostered patients under their new model. Family docs on average spend a lot less time in traditional clinic (it’s just over 2 days per week on average) in NB because so many of them are doing emerg/LTC/walk-in, etc. There’s a lot of variation. Most doctors are not straight FFS or straight salary if you look up the breakdowns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windsormd1 Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 Expect to make around $250-275kk NET as a FHT/FHO; maybe a little less as a FFS straight up. I should say *after* you are established. With a reasonable patient load/hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrouchoMarx Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 family docs are insultingly underpaid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windsormd1 Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 2 hours ago, GrouchoMarx said: family docs are insultingly underpaid I sense some sarcasm; lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrouchoMarx Posted March 31, 2019 Report Share Posted March 31, 2019 4 hours ago, windsormd1 said: I sense some sarcasm; lol none whatsoever. they are very much underpaid to the point where it is insulting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windsormd1 Posted March 31, 2019 Report Share Posted March 31, 2019 35 minutes ago, GrouchoMarx said: none whatsoever. they are very much underpaid to the point where it is insulting Compared to who? Based on hours/work/training years I think we do ok..........probably better than 95% of people in this country...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrouchoMarx Posted March 31, 2019 Report Share Posted March 31, 2019 1 hour ago, windsormd1 said: Compared to who? Based on hours/work/training years I think we do ok..........probably better than 95% of people in this country...... so what? compare to people in your standing, not everyone. based on hours/work/training years i think family docs are underpaid. teachers make as much. some nurses make more. cops make as much. specialists with 3 more years of residency make far more. its not justified. _ _ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windsormd1 Posted March 31, 2019 Report Share Posted March 31, 2019 54 minutes ago, GrouchoMarx said: so what? compare to people in your standing, not everyone. based on hours/work/training years i think family docs are underpaid. teachers make as much. some nurses make more. cops make as much. specialists with 3 more years of residency make far more. its not justified. What teachers make 200k? and which nurses do? your comments make no sense.............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.