The slow decay of dentistry

[Ostracized]

1 hour ago, cookiemonster99 said:

I've heard Canadian dental grads only doing 1 extraction and maybe 1 root canal before they graduated from dental school IN CANADA.  

just my 2 cents 

Well that’s a slight exaggeration but it’s true that many Canadian school are severely lacking in clinical experience.  And that’s a separate but related issue.  

After you graduate you NEED a year or two (or more!) of clinical learning before you are really a capable dentist.  That means you need a) a good mentor to help you when you get stuck and b) lots of patients to practice on.  I’m 6 years out of school and I’m still learning all the time and still finding knowledge gaps more than I’d want to admit.  

So another concern for new grads in our increasingly cut-throat system is lack of clinical growth, on top of financial concerns.

 

[Borntobewild]

10 hours ago, Ostracized said:

Well that’s a slight exaggeration but it’s true that many Canadian school are severely lacking in clinical experience.  And that’s a separate but related issue.  

After you graduate you NEED a year or two (or more!) of clinical learning before you are really a capable dentist.  That means you need a) a good mentor to help you when you get stuck and b) lots of patients to practice on.  I’m 6 years out of school and I’m still learning all the time and still finding knowledge gaps more than I’d want to admit.  

So another concern for new grads in our increasingly cut-throat system is lack of clinical growth, on top of financial concerns.

 

 

I agree that Canadian Dental students graduate with insufficient clinical experience. In fact, US and Aus schools are generally far superior to Canadian schools in terms on clinical experience. There’s a reason that these schools are accredited.

Dentistry is changing. General dentists are doing more “traditionally specialist” procedures e.g implants, wisdom teeth ext, biopsies, clear aligners etc. So the concept of a 1-2 year residency is much more relevant today.

[cookiemonster99]

11 hours ago, Ostracized said:

Well that’s a slight exaggeration but it’s true that many Canadian school are severely lacking in clinical experience.  And that’s a separate but related issue.  

After you graduate you NEED a year or two (or more!) of clinical learning before you are really a capable dentist.  That means you need a) a good mentor to help you when you get stuck and b) lots of patients to practice on.  I’m 6 years out of school and I’m still learning all the time and still finding knowledge gaps more than I’d want to admit.  

So another concern for new grads in our increasingly cut-throat system is lack of clinical growth, on top of financial concerns.

 

Well....I'm not sure about all of the dental schools in Canada but yes there are grads in Canada that graduated with very minimal clinical experience compared to some US or Aus schools. 
I do agree everything else you've said. 
The amount of practices in major cities that are looking for people who can just step in and complete "complex" work is increasing and mentorship in major cities may also be lacking due to competition. Not to say there aren't any opportunities available but it's becoming rarer and rarer. 

[Borntobewild]

On 7/13/2018 at 9:20 PM, cookiemonster99 said:

Well....I'm not sure about all of the dental schools in Canada but yes there are grads in Canada that graduated with very minimal clinical experience compared to some US or Aus schools. 
I do agree everything else you've said. 
The amount of practices in major cities that are looking for people who can just step in and complete "complex" work is increasing and mentorship in major cities may also be lacking due to competition. Not to say there aren't any opportunities available but it's becoming rarer and rarer. 

Absolutely, associate opportunities are very low in Canada right now. Even northern jobs have multiple interviewees. Times are changing due to the equivalency process...I predict that in the next 5 years, new grads will not even be able to find multiple part time jobs equal to full time employment 

[WomboCombo]

On 7/16/2018 at 5:44 PM, Borntobewild said:

Absolutely, associate opportunities are very low in Canada right now. Even northern jobs have multiple interviewees. Times are changing due to the equivalency process...I predict that in the next 5 years, new grads will not even be able to find multiple part time jobs equal to full time employment 

Every new graduate from my school I know has lined up a job before or right after graduation. Some full time. Golden Horseshoe region.

YMMV

[cookiemonster99]

2 hours ago, Steins;Gate said:

Every new graduate from my school I know has lined up a job before or right after graduation. Some full time. Golden Horseshoe region.

YMMV

seems like the job market isn't that bad then

[McMarauder]

3 hours ago, Steins;Gate said:

Every new graduate from my school I know has lined up a job before or right after graduation. Some full time. Golden Horseshoe region.

YMMV

The issue is NOT finding work.  The issue is finding quality associateships where you are sufficiently busy, and are learning on the job.  Full/part time doesn't really mean a thing in dentistry.  You can have multiple part time jobs, and make a killing if each clinic is busy.  On the flip side, you can be full time at a clinic that is dead making barely anything.   Dentists are paid on commission (~40%) - if you see a lot of patients and do a lot of treatment, you will make more money.  If you're working at dead clinic that is in a plaza with 5 other dental clinics around, you'll make very little.  40% of 0 is 0.

That's just one thing oversaturation is doing - there's not enough work for everyone.  One of the sad outcomes of this is that dentists start "looking" for things to do when the finally get their hands on a patient, whether it is necessary or not...

[WomboCombo]

Can confirm the aforementioned associateships are quality ones. Even the ones who are stringing part time positions in the GTA are quite happy with their lives.

[McMarauder]

7 hours ago, Steins;Gate said:

Can confirm the aforementioned associateships are quality ones. Even the ones who are stringing part time positions in the GTA are quite happy with their lives.

did you survey everyone of the graduating class of 2018?

[guacamole]

8 hours ago, Steins;Gate said:

Can confirm the aforementioned associateships are quality ones. Even the ones who are stringing part time positions in the GTA are quite happy with their lives.

People tend to gloss over the details and keep up with a happy front, at least at first and with most other people. It was strange to see at first, but it makes it seem even more isolating than it already is.

[WomboCombo]

7 hours ago, McMarauder said:

did you survey everyone of the graduating class of 2018?

No. However I hope that this question was not asked out of sarcasm.

6 hours ago, guacamole said:

People tend to gloss over the details and keep up with a happy front, at least at first and with most other people. It was strange to see at first, but it makes it seem even more isolating than it already is.

For sure. I believe that if you go into healthcare, one must understand that quality opportunities will not always be available in desirable locations. 

Not trying to refute anything that anyone has said here but I want to provide what I heard through the grapevine.

[McMarauder]

1 hour ago, Steins;Gate said:

No. However I hope that this question was not asked out of sarcasm.

For sure. I believe that if you go into healthcare, one must understand that quality opportunities will not always be available in desirable locations. 

Not trying to refute anything that anyone has said here but I want to provide what I heard through the grapevine.

Someone in my class actually did a survey.  Thought you may have done the same.

Not saying everyone is unhappy at their positions.  I knew a lot of people go through 3-4 different positions before settling with a clinic they were happy with.  Most people eventually find something they are happy with.

[McMarauder]

7 hours ago, guacamole said:

People tend to gloss over the details and keep up with a happy front, at least at first and with most other people. It was strange to see at first, but it makes it seem even more isolating than it already is.

True.  I am one of those "happy front" people IRL.

[WomboCombo]

32 minutes ago, McMarauder said:

Someone in my class actually did a survey.  Thought you may have done the same.

Not saying everyone is unhappy at their positions.  I knew a lot of people go through 3-4 different positions before settling with a clinic they were happy with.  Most people eventually find something they are happy with.

I'm a 2021 student - it would be hard for me to know most of the 2018 class. It is good that your cohort has a survey!

It's definitely not going to be a home run, that first (or even first few associateships). It takes a lot of trial and error. 

Just wanted to thank you for your contributions on the forum! Lots to learn from you and others for sure.

[omgplspickme]

why are schools still so competitive given A) high tuition and debt and interest rates and  B ) saturation - would dental job field become that of teachers (B.Ed) ? ? 

[#YOLO]

On 8/20/2018 at 8:27 PM, gigihh said:

why are schools still so competitive given A) high tuition and debt and interest rates and  B ) saturation - would dental job field become that of teachers (B.Ed) ? ? 

would u rather be stuck in some aholes lab doing research u dont care about for someone that doesnt care about u, or go thru training for a job where ul make 50k (as a teacher), or eat all those Ls up, and atleast have the chance of makign 100k+ 

[omgplspickme]

pretty sure teachers make 50-90K (no summers +march break) plus a great pension for early retirement LOL

[#YOLO]

22 minutes ago, gigihh said:

pretty sure teachers make 50-90K (no summers +march break) plus a great pension for early retirement LOL

hehe 

[#YOLO]

5 hours ago, malkynn said:

Umm...every ex I've ever dated has made over 6 figures, several of them without even having an undergrad degree, some had pensions, almost all had benefits, and very few worked evenings or weekends like many dentists do. NONE needed to go into mortgage sized debt either. I jokingly refer to my DH as my "sugar daddy" because he earns 6 figures plus a full pension, plus full benefits, plus paid sick days and vacation days or leave if my mom needs care, or if he feels like volunteering, or if his dog gets sick...you get the idea.

Lets not pretend that dentistry or other professional degree is the only option for making a 6 figure income. If you are smart enough and hard working enough to cut it as a successful dentist, you are good enough to be very successful in a wide range of careers. You can't compare the career options of a new grad to the career options of a dental grad. That's comparing apples to oranges. Compare a dental grad with a mortgage sized debt to another brilliant grad who is at least 4 years out and has worked their fucking ass off to develop their career. I bet the non-dental grad is actually in a better position financially, especially if they've slaved as brutally hard as the dental student did for 4 years...while making money the whole time instead of *paying* to slave...with interest.

Just because the non-professional-degree path to success is less obvious doesn't mean it's a bad path and can't be as successful as dentistry. Don't do dentistry unless you think you will love it. Period. Any other reason is stupid. I love dentistry, I do. I'm glad I chose it. However, I'm also glad I don't have kids, I have a spouse with a stable job with benefits, and I have the flexibility to take time off, change my hours, or change jobs if I want to/need to. I can't fathom the pressure of doing this job as a primary bread winner in a family with kids. The stress would be astronomical. 

I work in dental consulting in addition to clinical dentistry. I talk to A LOT of dentists about their stresses, especially their financial stresses. Do not underestimate how difficult a life you've chosen if you choose dentistry. DO NOT do it just because you want "a chance of making 100k+"; there are a thousand other ways to make 6 figures. Do this job because you want to do this job.

respect. good post.

[cleanup]

On 7/17/2018 at 6:57 PM, Steins;Gate said:

Every new graduate from my school I know has lined up a job before or right after graduation. Some full time. Golden Horseshoe region.

YMMV

The associate market has gotten noticeably worse in the past few years.

There's a reason I am very cautious to leave my associateships (despite driving 45000km a year) and I have personally had very little trouble landing jobs. But most people I know seeking jobs right now are having more trouble than I did a few short years ago. 

My office put up an ad recently for a new associate and they received 80 applications in the first day. Many of those are ITDs but plenty are just newer grads who are struggling to find an appropriate job.

[Mitochon]

3 hours ago, cleanup said:

The associate market has gotten noticeably worse in the past few years.

There's a reason I am very cautious to leave my associateships (despite driving 45000km a year) and I have personally had very little trouble landing jobs. But most people I know seeking jobs right now are having more trouble than I did a few short years ago. 

My office put up an ad recently for a new associate and they received 80 applications in the first day. Many of those are ITDs but plenty are just newer grads who are struggling to find an appropriate job.

 

Just curious is this in the GTA? And what are ITDs, sorry i'm still a lowly undergrad haha

[Edict]

4 hours ago, Mitochon said:

Just curious is this in the GTA? And what are ITDs, sorry i'm still a lowly undergrad haha

presumably internationally trained dentist??

[omgplspickme]

2 hours ago, Edict said:

presumably internationally trained dentist??

yes

[cleanup]

On 8/25/2018 at 1:54 PM, Mitochon said:

Just curious is this in the GTA? And what are ITDs, sorry i'm still a lowly undergrad haha

Yes, in the GTA. Yes, internationally-trained dentists. There are a LOT of them.

The issue is that there's no real way to weed through people applying for associate positions for a 'good fit' outside of meeting them. And associateship positions receive metric shit tons of applications these days. If people are looking for homegrown grads, people they know, etc., that's great; for the most part the best associateships are just through word of mouth--friends and colleagues helping each other out, but otherwise the market has been flooded with a lot of people who are more and more desperate for work.

Clinic owners are becoming far, far more business-oriented as well, so more and more often the best candidate for a position isn't the one who's necessarily the best fit socially or clinically, but the one who's most flexible with respect to hours and most willing to do a variety of procedures; basically, who's hungriest? That's a quick race to the bottom.

[Ostracized]

I applied for a job this week and was told that there were 175 other applicants.