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The slow decay of dentistry

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17 hours ago, Confusedprehealth said:

Previously when Canada only recognized education from the US everything was fine and dandy... US schools are still a lot harder to get into compared to Aus/NZ/Irish schools albeit easier than Canadian schools... The saturation started to hit hard when Canada started opening the floodgates to Aus/NZ/Irish graduates, a lot of these schools will take anyone with a pulse... the good news is that Canadians who got their DDS from the US or Canada can always run to the US for a better job market and to make more money, while those that got their B dent from AUS/NZ/Ireland/UK are essentially stuck in Canada...

Recirprocity agreements are worsening the saturation, but cities were already pretty saturated, not fine and dandy, before people studied dentistry outside of CAN/US in significant numbers. This article, which discusses dentist oversupply was published in 2013, 3 years after the agreement with Australia was established.  There would not have been enough graduates from Australia at that point to have made a significant contribution to the saturation.  

Also, graduates of programs from outside of Canada and USA are not stuck in Canada (someone please correct me if I am wrong).

NDEB certification or components of the certification process are also being accepted for licensure in the following states:
•    Colorado
•    Minnesota
•    Washington

After working in those states, it would be possible to move to other states.  California, for example, will grant a licence to someone who has held a licence in another state if they meet the following criteria

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4 hours ago, McMarauder said:

Recirprocity agreements are worsening the saturation, but cities were already pretty saturated, not fine and dandy, before people studied dentistry outside of CAN/US in significant numbers. This article, which discusses dentist oversupply was published in 2013, 3 years after the agreement with Australia was established.  There would not have been enough graduates from Australia at that point to have made a significant contribution to the saturation.  

Also, graduates of programs from outside of Canada and USA are not stuck in Canada (someone please correct me if I am wrong).

NDEB certification or components of the certification process are also being accepted for licensure in the following states:
•    Colorado
•    Minnesota
•    Washington

After working in those states, it would be possible to move to other states.  California, for example, will grant a licence to someone who has held a licence in another state if they meet the following criteria

Does that mean you can practice in these states as long as you have a dental license from any school?

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11 minutes ago, MiniPanda said:

Does that mean you can practice in these states as long as you have a dental license from any school?

It's not about what school you went to, it's about having a canadian dental license.  Eg. After I finished at Melbourne, I wrote and passed the Canadian board exams (NDEB), which enables me to get registered in all canadian provinces, Minnesota, Colorado, and Washington.  My classmates who did not do the board exams would not be able to work in Canada or those 3 states.

 

Edit:  unless you meant "dental degree", then in theory, I believe you can go to dental school anywhere and work in those 3 states if you pass NDEB.

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9 hours ago, McMarauder said:

After working in those states, it would be possible to move to other states.  California, for example, will grant a licence to someone who has held a licence in another state if they meet the following criteria

That's not entirely true. You have to still write the WREB or CDCA to practice in California even if you practiced in another state.

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6 hours ago, McMarauder said:

It's not about what school you went to, it's about having a canadian dental license.  Eg. After I finished at Melbourne, I wrote and passed the Canadian board exams (NDEB), which enables me to get registered in all canadian provinces, Minnesota, Colorado, and Washington.  My classmates who did not do the board exams would not be able to work in Canada or those 3 states.

 

Edit:  unless you meant "dental degree", then in theory, I believe you can go to dental school anywhere and work in those 3 states if you pass NDEB.

do you have confirmation on this? If so that would be huge news for people with aussie degrees since it adds a lot more flexibility

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https://www.doh.wa.gov/LicensesPermitsandCertificates/ProfessionsNewReneworUpdate/Dentist/LicenseRequirements 

Im on washington website and it seems like the licensure process has two parts, the education and the examination. the examination accepts NDEB but in order to practice u still need a dental degree from an accrediated american or canadian school.

 

edit: at the same time though, the CODA website lists that whatever canada acredits, it also acredits: https://www.ada.org/en/coda/find-a-program/search-dental-programs#t=canada&sort=%40codastatecitysort ascending

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1 hour ago, happychapter said:

do you have confirmation on this? If so that would be huge news for people with aussie degrees since it adds a lot more flexibility

You can still practice in US if you are willing to take a two year international bridging program in a US dental school.

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8 hours ago, happychapter said:

do you have confirmation on this? If so that would be huge news for people with aussie degrees since it adds a lot more flexibility

I dont have any confirmation and I doubt many aussie grads have done this.  In fact, I only found out about these 3 states a few months ago from another post on PM101.  

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16 hours ago, McMarauder said:

It's not about what school you went to, it's about having a canadian dental license.  Eg. After I finished at Melbourne, I wrote and passed the Canadian board exams (NDEB), which enables me to get registered in all canadian provinces, Minnesota, Colorado, and Washington.  My classmates who did not do the board exams would not be able to work in Canada or those 3 states.

 

Edit:  unless you meant "dental degree", then in theory, I believe you can go to dental school anywhere and work in those 3 states if you pass NDEB.

It is about what school you went to. You need to be a graduate of an accredited school. Whether Australian/NZ and Irish school fit the bill is untested waters and likely something the individual state borads will determine. But graduates of unaccredited schools will not be able to get a US license unless they do a 2 year international dentist program at various US dental schools. This is the way it was in Canada before 2012. I don’t ever see the US changing to create a challenge exam to allow graduates from unaccredited programs to get licensed. I don’t think the US public would ever accept a challenge exam.

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4 minutes ago, McMarauder said:

anybody else notice that Saudi Arabian dental school, King Abdulaziz University is CODA accredited? wonder why that one particular university in that region gets CODA accreditation.

Where does it say this?

 

Edit: found it https://ndeb-bned.ca/en/news/article/first-international-predoctoral-dental-educational-program-granted-coda-accreditation

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2 hours ago, McMarauder said:

Any conspiracy theorists wanna chime in?

No conspiracy. In both medicine and dentistry, rich middle eastern countries have made connections with North american accreditors(for medicine with the ACGME and Royal College), to pay $$$ to get their programs up to snuff to be off-shore accredited. Locally, it makes them look better to have "Western" "North american" accredidation. It's not necessarily a bad thing. 

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On 2/6/2020 at 12:01 AM, happychapter said:

edit: at the same time though, the CODA website lists that whatever canada acredits, it also acredits: https://www.ada.org/en/coda/find-a-program/search-dental-programs#t=canada&sort=%40codastatecitysort ascending

I've been looking into this further and came across this document from CODA.  Page 18 of the document (labelled page 11) states the following:

Quote

F. RECIPROCAL AGREEMENT WITH THE COMMISSION ON DENTAL ACCREDITATION OF CANADA

The reciprocal accreditation arrangement between the Commission on Dental Accreditation and the Commission on Dental Accreditation of Canada (CDAC) has been maintained and expanded since its adoption in 1956. Under the reciprocal agreement, each Commission recognizes the accreditation of educational programs in specified categories accredited by the other agency. Under this arrangement, the Commissions agree that the educational programs accredited by the other agency are equivalent to their own and no further education is required for eligibility for licensure. Commissioners and staff of the accrediting agencies will regularly attend the meetings of the other agency and its standing committees. In addition, Commissioners and/or staff will participate annually in at least one site visit conducted by the other agency. The Commissions believe that this cross-participation is important in maintaining an understanding of the accreditation processes in each country and in ensuring that the accreditation processes in each country continue to be equivalent.

The following educational programs are included in the scope of the reciprocal agreement.

  • Predoctoral dental education
  • Dental hygiene
  • Level II dental assisting 
  • Advanced dental education programs in dental public health, endodontics, oral and maxillofacial pathology, oral and maxillofacial radiology, oral and maxillofacial surgery, orthodontics and dentofacial orthopedics, pediatric dentistry, periodontics, and prosthodontics.

Many of us have been ignorant about this for nearly 10 years - the amount of time that the Aus-Can agreement has been in place.   There is no mention of excluding programs outside of Canada.  So it appears, CODA, via the reciprocal agreement with CDAC, recognizes General dental programs in Australia, NZ, and Ireland (limited to the agreement start dates).  Looks like you just have to fulfill the requirements of the state that you want to work in.  California for example:
 

Quote

California Dental Licensure Options
October 2017

Licensure by Clinical Exam

Graduate from a dental school that is accredited by the Commission on Dental Accreditation (CODA), Commission on Dental Accreditation of Canada (CDAC), or is approved by the Dental Board of California, or complete a two-year international dental program at a board-approved dental school.

• Take and pass Parts I and II of the National Board Dental Examination.

• Take and pass the California Law and Ethics Examination.

• Take and pass the Western Regional Examining Board (WREB) Examination.

But of course, I'm going to contact CODA directly.

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Many of us have been ignorant about this for nearly 10 years - the amount of time that the Aus-Can agreement has been in place.   There is no mention of excluding programs outside of Canada.  So it appears, CODA, via the reciprocal agreement with CDAC, recognizes General dental programs in Australia, NZ, and Ireland (limited to the agreement start dates).  Looks like you just have to fulfill the requirements of the state that you want to work in

The Australian Dental Schools have been accredited by the Australian Dental Council (ADC) and not CDAC. Hence, CODA does not recognise Australian Dental Schools making them ineligible for U.S. state Dental boards. 

Since NZDC has outsourced their clinical examination to NDEB (and discontinued the NZDREX), I don't know why Australia and NZ dont outsource their accreditation to CDAC. Makes them eligible to work in the states and CDAC gets extra money.

 

Quote

But of course, I'm going to contact CODA directly.

Sure can. But alas, your University of Melbourne DDS course is not accredited by CDAC. It is accredited by Australian Dental Council, whose accreditation standards are not accepted by the Dental Board of California.

I see that there is an increased interest in Australian Dental Graduates who want to work in California. 

 

Quote

at the same time though, the CODA website lists that whatever canada acredits, it also acredits

But Canada does not accredit Australian Dental Schools. 

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4 hours ago, mandok said:

The Australian Dental Schools have been accredited by the Australian Dental Council (ADC) and not CDAC. Hence, CODA does not recognise Australian Dental Schools making them ineligible for U.S. state Dental boards. 

Since NZDC has outsourced their clinical examination to NDEB (and discontinued the NZDREX), I don't know why Australia and NZ dont outsource their accreditation to CDAC. Makes them eligible to work in the states and CDAC gets extra money.

Sure can. But alas, your University of Melbourne DDS course is not accredited by CDAC. It is accredited by Australian Dental Council, whose accreditation standards are not accepted by the Dental Board of California.

I see that there is an increased interest in Australian Dental Graduates who want to work in California. 

 

But Canada does not accredit Australian Dental Schools. 

According to the CDAC, AU, NZ and IR general dental  programs are considered. CDAC accredited.  The reciprocal agreements are about accreditation: one country will accept a program as accredited if the other accredits it.  That is why US, Aus, NZ, and Irish grads (limited by agreement start dates) are able to write the NDEB without having to enroll in further studies.

 

I'm just using California as an example.

 

Quote

The Commission on Dental Accreditation of Canada (CDAC) is responsible for accrediting dental, dental hygiene and dental assisting education programs in Canada.

For the purpose of certification and licensure in Canada, only programs that are accredited by either CDAC or the American Dental Association's Commission on Dental Accreditation (CODA) are considered accredited.

In addition, the following general dentistry programs are also considered accredited:

Effective March 30, 2010, general dentistry programs accredited by CDAC or the Australian Dental Council (ADC).

Effective December 15, 2011, general dentistry programs accredited by CDAC or the Dental Council of New Zealand (DCNZ).

Effective December 5, 2012, general dentistry programs accredited by CDAC or the Irish Dental Council.



Edit: I'm just seeing the word "accredited" a lot and could be misinterpreting it's meaning.  I'm aware that it's the ADC that accredits programs in Aus.

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I found this on an American dental forum. This post was made in 2010 when the agreement was newly in place. I think this definitively states Aussie graduates cannot practice in the US as of right now. I have seen that some Australian schools are looking for CODA (US) accreditation so this may change:

 

Just to clarify, I e-mailed the ADA's accreditation section the question of whether the ADC and CDAC agreement had an indirect effect . They said:

"Your message was forwarded to me as I am the accreditation manager for international accreditation. The reciprocity agreement between CDAC and Australia does not extend to the United States and the Commission on Dental Accreditation (CODA). The reciprocity agreement that CODA has with CDAC only covers Canadian programs. CODA does have policies and procedures in place for accrediting established international predoctoral education programs. Information and guidelines for that process is on the web at: http://www.ada.org/116.aspx"

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9 minutes ago, HopefulDDS said:

I found this on an American dental forum. This post was made in 2010 when the agreement was newly in place. I think this definitively states Aussie graduates cannot practice in the US as of right now. I have seen that some Australian schools are looking for CODA (US) accreditation so this may change:

 

Just to clarify, I e-mailed the ADA's accreditation section the question of whether the ADC and CDAC agreement had an indirect effect . They said:

"Your message was forwarded to me as I am the accreditation manager for international accreditation. The reciprocity agreement between CDAC and Australia does not extend to the United States and the Commission on Dental Accreditation (CODA). The reciprocity agreement that CODA has with CDAC only covers Canadian programs. CODA does have policies and procedures in place for accrediting established international predoctoral education programs. Information and guidelines for that process is on the web at: http://www.ada.org/116.aspx"

Interesting. But all present documents seem to indicate otherwise. 

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15 minutes ago, McMarauder said:

Interesting. But all present documents seem to indicate otherwise. 

I agree the agreement's language seems ambiguous and somewhat misleading. My interpretation is that they recognize schools directly accredited by the agency that is CDAC, not indirectly by another agency (ADC). In your earlier post its says "In addition, the following general dentistry programs are also considered accredited: Effective March 30, 2010, general dentistry programs accredited by CDAC or the Australian Dental Council (ADC)." I think that "or" may indicate that Australian schools can be accredited by the ADC and be recognized as accredited, but it was not actually accredited by the agency that is CDAC. Seems very arbitrary I know, but it may account for CODA not seeing Australian schools as being accredited by CDAC.

I would still encourage you to reach out to CODA yourself for further clarification.

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1 minute ago, HopefulDDS said:

I agree the agreement's language seems ambiguous and somewhat misleading. My interpretation is that they recognize schools directly accredited by the agency that is CDAC, not indirectly by another agency (ADC). In your earlier post its says "In addition, the following general dentistry programs are also considered accredited: Effective March 30, 2010, general dentistry programs accredited by CDAC or the Australian Dental Council (ADC)." I think that "or" may indicate that Australian schools can be accredited by the ADC and be recognized as accredited, but it was not actually accredited by the agency that is CDAC. Seems very arbitrary I know, but it may account for CODA not seeing Australian schools as being accredited by CDAC.

I would still encourage you to reach out to CODA yourself for further clarification.

The wording is what's getting to me as well.  

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According to the CDAC, AU, NZ and IR general dental  programs are considered. CDAC accredited 

CDAC recognises that the accreditation standards of AU, NZ and IR equivalent to their own. Thats why Auzzie Dental Grads can write the NDEB. They are not 'directly' accredited by CDAC. 

 

Quote

I think that "or" may indicate that Australian schools can be accredited by the ADC and be recognized as accredited, but it was not actually accredited by the agency that is CDAC. Seems very arbitrary I know, but it may account for CODA not seeing Australian schools as being accredited by CDAC.

Spot on. This guy gets it and is exactly where the issue lies, that is preventing Australian Dental grads from working in the U.S. The programs need to be 'directly' accredited by CDAC. 

The ADC actually approached CODA in 2012 to have a mutual agreement with the U.S. (similar to Canada) and was declined by CODA. You can read it here.

http://www.dentalboard.gov.au/documents/default.aspx?record=WD12%2F9231&dbid=AP&chksum=6t%2F6Ast3Ziy8wqTX1q%2FNTg%3D%3D

CODA makes it extremely difficult for international programs to be accredited. De La Salle Bajio (accredited by Dental Board of California) recently applied to CODA for accreditation and was rejected. This is despite being accredited in California. 

The entire country is closing off to international Dentists. California (the easiest state to get a Dental licence) which used to accredit foreign schools independent to CODA recently passed a bill, to revoke those privileges too and pass on the responsibility to CODA. As a result, the two international dental school accredited by DBC will lose their accreditation status in 2023 when the bill takes effect.....

However, the more Australian Dentists pressurise CODA or State Boards, the more we have a chance of working in the U.S. 

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5 hours ago, mandok said:

CDAC recognises that the accreditation standards of AU, NZ and IR equivalent to their own. Thats why Auzzie Dental Grads can write the NDEB. They are not 'directly' accredited by CDAC. 

 

Spot on. This guy gets it and is exactly where the issue lies, that is preventing Australian Dental grads from working in the U.S. The programs need to be 'directly' accredited by CDAC. 

The ADC actually approached CODA in 2012 to have a mutual agreement with the U.S. (similar to Canada) and was declined by CODA. You can read it here.

http://www.dentalboard.gov.au/documents/default.aspx?record=WD12%2F9231&dbid=AP&chksum=6t%2F6Ast3Ziy8wqTX1q%2FNTg%3D%3D

CODA makes it extremely difficult for international programs to be accredited. De La Salle Bajio (accredited by Dental Board of California) recently applied to CODA for accreditation and was rejected. This is despite being accredited in California. 

The entire country is closing off to international Dentists. California (the easiest state to get a Dental licence) which used to accredit foreign schools independent to CODA recently passed a bill, to revoke those privileges too and pass on the responsibility to CODA. As a result, the two international dental school accredited by DBC will lose their accreditation status in 2023 when the bill takes effect.....

However, the more Australian Dentists pressurise CODA or State Boards, the more we have a chance of working in the U.S. 

New Zealand has been trying for years to have their dental school accredited by CODA as well:
https://www.ada.org/~/media/CODA/Files/coda_minutes_summer_2014.pdf (page 32/36)
https://www.ada.org/~/media/CODA/Files/coda_minutes_Feb2016.pdf (22/24)

Wonder if they will consider pursuing CODA accreditation.

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