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Saudi Arabia to relocate students from Canada

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7 minutes ago, canada747 said:

Is it possible then that the government will replace these residency spots with spots for Canadians? Since we need the residents. I realize it's a funding issue since Saudi Arabia sponsored those residencies that they're taking back.

Except we are already in a job crunch with many graduated residents being underemployed. This will make the situation much worse.

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46 minutes ago, canada747 said:

Is it possible then that the government will replace these residency spots with spots for Canadians? Since we need the residents. I realize it's a funding issue since Saudi Arabia sponsored those residencies that they're taking back.

It's tricky, as most of the fields that have large numbers of Saudi residents are not ones in particularly high demand in the Canadian system. In some cases, Saudi trainees were taking the place of CMG spots that were intentionally (and in many cases justifiably) rolled back in favour of spots in other, more in-demand fields (like FM, for example). With a few exceptions (possibly IM), I doubt the answer to this loss of residents/fellows will be more CMG spots.

Rather, I think we'll see other internationally-sponsored residents be recruited to fill those spots if possible, or we'll have to see resident call demands adjusted in these programs to account for these lost residents. In the short term, existing residents in these programs will likely see their call adjusted to the allowed maximum, with staff having to cover any holes.

To the extent that we see new CMG spots, it should and likely will be in fields with comparatively few Saudi residents, such as FM, EM, or Psych.

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https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1117083/medecins-arabie-saoudite-residents-depart-impact-hopitaux-barrette-cusm-quebec

In French, but basically saying how McGill health network will lose about 225 Saudis medical residents; that is about 18% of the total population of residents at McGill. Naturally, the Quebec health minister says that even if with their departure, it will not substantially affect the daily services in a global manner. 

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24 minutes ago, la marzocco said:

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1117083/medecins-arabie-saoudite-residents-depart-impact-hopitaux-barrette-cusm-quebec

In French, but basically saying how McGill health network will lose about 225 Saudis medical residents; that is about 18% of the total population of residents at McGill. Naturally, the Quebec health minister says that even if with their departure, it will not substantially affect the daily services in a global manner. 

Really? :huh:

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37 minutes ago, PhD2MD said:

Really? :huh:

Yep..  According to Barrette - he also says there's enough anticipated residency positions  to keep the health network functioning.  

One person in the article does question the assertion though, by saying unless the 250 medical resident aren't involved in [patient] care, which would be surprising, for sure there'll be an impact.  P. Brunet - looks like an independent organization (Conseil de la protection des malades).  

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7 minutes ago, tere said:

Yep..  According to Barrette - he also says there's enough anticipated residency positions  to keep the health network functioning.  

One person in the article does question the assertion though, by saying unless the 250 medical resident aren't involved in [patient] care, which would be surprising, for sure there'll be an impact.  P. Brunet - looks like an independent organization (Conseil de la protection des malades).  

There will for sure be an impact, I think any health minister would try to downplay it to calm the general public. It will be interesting to see how this evolves. 

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7 minutes ago, tere said:

Yep..  According to Barrette - he also says there's enough anticipated residency positions  to keep the health network functioning.  

One person in the article does question the assertion though, by saying unless the 250 medical resident aren't involved in [patient] care, which would be surprising, for sure there'll be an impact.  P. Brunet - looks like an independent organization (Conseil de la protection des malades).  

What a fool. Makes me hate politics and want to run for office all at the same time. He's insulting the worth of residents. How useless do you think residents are if you think losing 250 won't make an impact?


Anyways, things continue to escalate and I don't see it turning around. Not saying that I disagree, but it's really time to start contingency planning: 

 

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8 minutes ago, PhD2MD said:

What a fool. Makes me hate politics and want to run for office all at the same time. He's insulting the worth of residents. How useless do you think residents are if you think losing 250 won't make an impact?


Anyways, things continue to escalate and I don't see it turning around. Not saying that I disagree, but it's really time to start contingency planning: 

 

I think it would have been more prudent to say that it will not affect the primary care as much as most Saudi residents are in surgical specialties (at least at McGill). It will not immediately impact primary care experience for patients, but wait times for surgeries and specialty consults may lengthen even if other residents are pushed to take on maximum allowable call schedules.

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I've always found selling residency positions to saudis sketchy and morally off. 

though it inconveniences the residents, both the saudis who are getting shipped back to their despotic desert hellhole, and their colleagues, who have to shoulder the call,  im pleased that this miscarriage of sense is abrogated.

 

maybe we should sell residency positions to countries that dont have shitty governments. oh wait, those countries tend to have good residency programs. 

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2 hours ago, PhD2MD said:

What a fool. Makes me hate politics and want to run for office all at the same time. He's insulting the worth of residents. How useless do you think residents are if you think losing 250 won't make an impact?


Anyways, things continue to escalate and I don't see it turning around. Not saying that I disagree, but it's really time to start contingency planning: 

 

The video says they crucified a man today for murder. CRUCIFIED?! WTF?!

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To me, Trudeau struck a good tone today.  Firm on human rights, yet diplomatic.  I doubt it will change the fundamentals of the situation, but I don't think it will escalate any further.  I liked the emphasis on communication, positive, constructive..  I also think there is a danger in global polarization here:  for instance, today Egypt and Russia came out in support of Saudi, but Trudeau seems to have taken everything in stride.  Mentioning the dialogue between Canada's foreign minister and the Saudi counterpart, for instance, was a very good move.  As morally reprehensible and despicable as Saudi Arabia's human rights record is, diplomacy by tweets and hashtags is not the way to go.  

In terms of the big picture, has Canada simply been too eager to accept money from a despotic regime or has there been an opportunity to influence society, and engage in beneficial economic relations in a very murky part of the world?  It's hard to tell on this one, but to me, having essentially only the arms contract remain with a non-engaged country, is a little ambiguous at best.  In my view, education and health care represented better opportunities for broader change.  Nonetheless, half the Royal Colleges international partners are in Saudi, so maybe there'll continue to be some sort of exchange.   

As a final tangent, there were also commemorations regarding the century mark of end of the first world war this week, which was actually started with a relatively minor event.  Not a tweet for sure, but an assassination, then an ultimatum, after which the global powers at the time quickly formed alliances which led to broad escalation.  From very local to a global encompassing event - not saying anything similar would happen today, just that when a tweet provokes this kind of reaction from a "close ally" of the US, we live in uncharted territory.  

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15 minutes ago, tere said:

To me, Trudeau struck a good tone today.  Firm on human rights, yet diplomatic.  I doubt it will change the fundamentals of the situation, but I don't think it will escalate any further.  I liked the emphasis on communication, positive, constructive..  I also think there is a danger in global polarization here:  for instance, today Egypt and Russia came out in support of Saudi, but Trudeau seems to have taken everything in stride.  Mentioning the dialogue between Canada's foreign minister and the Saudi counterpart, for instance, was a very good move.  As morally reprehensible and despicable as Saudi Arabia's human rights record is, diplomacy by tweets and hashtags is not the way to go.  

In terms of the big picture, has Canada simply been too eager to accept money from a despotic regime or has there been an opportunity to influence society, and engage in beneficial economic relations in a very murky part of the world?  It's hard to tell on this one, but to me, having essentially only the arms contract remain with a non-engaged country, is a little ambiguous at best.  In my view, education and health care represented better opportunities for broader change.  Nonetheless, half the Royal Colleges international partners are in Saudi, so maybe there'll continue to be some sort of exchange.   

As a final tangent, there were also commemorations regarding the century mark of end of the first world war this week, which was actually started with a relatively minor event.  Not a tweet for sure, but an assassination, then an ultimatum, after which the global powers at the time quickly formed alliances which led to broad escalation.  From very local to a global encompassing event - not saying anything similar would happen today, just that when a tweet provokes this kind of reaction from a "close ally" of the US, we live in uncharted territory.  

Diplomacy by tweets is always a dicey move. But I agree, there can be some positives coming out from this as well: it will let us re-examine the way we administer our residency/fellowship programs and the role foreign medical graduates (residents, fellows, what have you) play in our healthcare system. For example, McGill is going to lose 1/5 of its resident workforce should they truly depart on 1 September. 

Canadian PGME programs must be able to stand on their own legs and collaboration with global partners must be done with prudence. The Canadian taxpayer does not fund Saudi residents, instead their government pays hospitals $100,000 a year to take them in, which includes salary support. The relationship goes back four decades, and has meant more support for care in some hospitals, without corresponding increases in Canadian government funding. The Saudis are likely saying “we’re not sending you any more multi-millions of dollars.” In other words, the Canadian government becomes increasingly over-reliant on this money. 

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I've always thought the Saudi training programs in Canada represented something of a racket. After all, nothing beats having residents and fellows who will essentially work for nothing and let academic staff stay in their beds all night. 

Okay maybe that was a bit cynical...

But I would feel a lot better about this "moral stand" if this same government hadn't already vigorously defended selling weapons and military equipment to the Saudis. Because they did. Was this the hill to die on?

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3 minutes ago, A-Stark said:

I've always thought the Saudi training programs in Canada represented something of a racket. After all, nothing beats having residents and fellows who will essentially work for nothing and let academic staff stay in their beds all night. 

Okay maybe that was a bit cynical...

But I would feel a lot better about this "moral stand" if this same government hadn't already vigorously defended selling weapons and military equipment to the Saudis. Because they did. Was this the hill to die on?

well that isn't much different than Canadian residents either ha - and they were relatively well paid, and headed back to good jobs. 

Yeah that is the sticking point for me - you just sold them a bunch of weaponry and now you are taking the high ground? Granted politics like this is complex but still. They knew exactly who they were in business with. Both sides have dug in as to not look weak in a sense here. This again is why politics should not be done shouting over twitter. You automatically have an argument rather than a discussion

 

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5 minutes ago, A-Stark said:

I've always thought the Saudi training programs in Canada represented something of a racket. After all, nothing beats having residents and fellows who will essentially work for nothing and let academic staff stay in their beds all night. 

Okay maybe that was a bit cynical...

But I would feel a lot better about this "moral stand" if this same government hadn't already vigorously defended selling weapons and military equipment to the Saudis. Because they did. Was this the hill to die on?

 

1 minute ago, rmorelan said:

well that isn't much different than Canadian residents either ha - and they were relatively well paid, and headed back to good jobs. 

Yeah that is the sticking point for me - you just sold them a bunch of weaponry and now you are taking the high ground? Granted politics like this is complex but still. They knew exactly who they were in business with. Both sides have dug in as to not look weak in a sense here. This again is why politics should not be done shouting over twitter. You automatically have an argument rather than a discussion

 

Wasn't it Harper's government that signed the deal? How much latitude did Trudeau's government have in wiggling out of the deal when he came in power?

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2 minutes ago, rmorelan said:

well that isn't much different than Canadian residents either ha - and they were relatively well paid, and headed back to good jobs. 

I've done a lot of call in the last week (5/7 nights) and miss having minions. Although really they'd just slow me down...

2 minutes ago, rmorelan said:

Yeah that is the sticking point for me - you just sold them a bunch of weaponry and now you are taking the high ground? Granted politics like this is complex but still. They knew exactly who they were in business with. Both sides have dug in as to not look weak in a sense here. This again is why politics should not be done shouting over twitter. You automatically have an argument rather than a discussion

I don't understand why supposedly serious people like Chrystia Freeland think that Twitter is the place for any serious messages or diplomacy. This is an unmitigated disaster. I don't much like the kleptocratic authoritarian Saudi government, but their ridiculous overreaction cannot be taken as that unexpected. Freeland absolutely should resign. 

Just now, la marzocco said:

Wasn't it Harper's government that signed the deal? How much latitude did Trudeau's government have in wiggling out of the deal when he came in power?

Contracts can be cancelled. Especially by new governments. 

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1 hour ago, A-Stark said:

Contracts can be cancelled. Especially by new governments. 

See: EH101 helicopter deal in 1993 (I'm really dating myself here. I bet a ton of people here weren't even alive then). Liberals came into power and cancelled a helicopter buy to replace the Labrador rescue helicopters. We ended up buying a downgraded version of the same helicopter we cancelled (the Cormorant, which is a lower tech EH101 version) for MORE than the original deal would have cost us. 

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1 hour ago, NLengr said:

See EH101 helicopter deal in 1993 (I'm really dating myself here. I bet a ton of people here weren't even alive then). Liberals came into power and cancelled a helicopter buy to replace the Labrador rescue helicopters. We ended up buying a downgrade version same helicopter we cancelled (the Cormorant, which is a lower tech EH101 version) for MORE than the original deal would have cost us. 

Great example!  

2 hours ago, la marzocco said:

Diplomacy by tweets is always a dicey move. But I agree, there can be some positives coming out from this as well: it will let us re-examine the way we administer our residency/fellowship programs and the role foreign medical graduates (residents, fellows, what have you) play in our healthcare system. For example, McGill is going to lose 1/5 of its resident workforce should they truly depart on 1 September. 

Canadian PGME programs must be able to stand on their own legs and collaboration with global partners must be done with prudence. The Canadian taxpayer does not fund Saudi residents, instead their government pays hospitals $100,000 a year to take them in, which includes salary support. The relationship goes back four decades, and has meant more support for care in some hospitals, without corresponding increases in Canadian government funding. The Saudis are likely saying “we’re not sending you any more multi-millions of dollars.” In other words, the Canadian government becomes increasingly over-reliant on this money. 

Which apparently to Barrette isn't a problem.  Yeah - I agree that it sounds like there's probably a dependency that has developed to Saudi money, but to what extent is hard to tell.  It's not just medical fellows and residents that bring in money, it's also regular undergraduates and graduate students as well.  No question the Saudis do want to damage Canada's pocketbooks  - they were trying to divest themselves of all Canadian financial assets today as well.  In my limited experience universities are always very short on money, but to what extent this might hit certain programs at McGill for example is hard to tell.  I like  to think the students and residents represented more than simply a cash grab, but now that opportunity seems to have ended.      

2 hours ago, A-Stark said:

I don't understand why supposedly serious people like Chrystia Freeland think that Twitter is the place for any serious messages or diplomacy. This is an unmitigated disaster. I don't much like the kleptocratic authoritarian Saudi government, but their ridiculous overreaction cannot be taken as that unexpected. Freeland absolutely should resign. 

Resignation would be seen as a tacit approval of Saudi's actions.  No question she erred, and I agree the reaction should have been foreseen to a greater extent, and the fact that it wasn't isn't a sign of competence, but to publicly admit a mistake would  make the government lose their very public case.  Reading between the lines from Trudeau's exact words, he did mention something along the line of Canadians expecting firm, polite, etc.., which wasn't exactly a condemnation of the tweet, but not glowing support either as it was more along the Trumpian style.  The fact that he also mentioned she was the one communicating directly with the Saudi minister was also telling - In some sense she has to take responsibility for the situation.     

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1 hour ago, tere said:

Which apparently to Barrette isn't a problem.  Yeah - I agree that it sounds like there's probably a dependency that has developed to Saudi money, but to what extent is hard to tell.  It's not just medical fellows and residents that bring in money, it's also regular undergraduates and graduate students as well.  No question the Saudis do want to damage Canada's pocketbooks  - they were trying to divest themselves of all Canadian financial assets today as well.  In my limited experience universities are always very short on money, but to what extent this might hit certain programs at McGill for example is hard to tell.  I like  to think the students and residents represented more than simply a cash grab, but now that opportunity seems to have ended.      

It is also a good time to recalibrate and re-examine the current system whenever something like this happens. I am sure the 1/5 proportion did not happen overnight, it slowly ramped up over the last four decades to get to 20%. The analysis here would be interesting and critical. 

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10 hours ago, la marzocco said:

It is also a good time to recalibrate and re-examine the current system whenever something like this happens. I am sure the 1/5 proportion did not happen overnight, it slowly ramped up over the last four decades to get to 20%. The analysis here would be interesting and critical. 

No it didn't ha - but like most trade system people do become reliant on them over time. Knock out any 20% of anything in the health care or economy as a whole and you are going to have and issue. 

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Update for Nova ScotiaNova Scotia can handle loss of Saudi medical residents, health minister says

Nova Scotia says it is ready to “mitigate any impacts” if it loses more than 50 Saudi medical residents because of an international diplomatic row. The residencies, through Dalhousie University’s medical school, are funded by Saudi Arabia, which plans to pull thousands of students from Canada. Nova Scotia has a shortage of doctors, and Health Minister Randy Delorey said Thursday losing the residents would “be possibly linked to some inconveniences.” But he said the residency positions are funded by the Saudis for Saudi students, and the province expects it could handle the loss. In a statement, Doctors Nova Scotia concurred.

“While this news is unfortunate for these medical residents, there doesn’t seem to be a direct impact on our province’s ability to recruit and retain physicians,” it said. “While the Saudi residents are here doing their training and/or fellowships, they do provide clinic care, but for the most part, they all leave Nova Scotia as soon as they have completed their training to practice medicine elsewhere (in other countries).” Delorey said Dalhousie, the province’s health authorities and the Health Department are assessing the impact.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-nova-scotia-can-handle-loss-of-saudi-medical-residents-health-2/

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2 minutes ago, la marzocco said:

Update for Nova ScotiaNova Scotia can handle loss of Saudi medical residents, health minister says

Nova Scotia says it is ready to “mitigate any impacts” if it loses more than 50 Saudi medical residents because of an international diplomatic row. The residencies, through Dalhousie University’s medical school, are funded by Saudi Arabia, which plans to pull thousands of students from Canada. Nova Scotia has a shortage of doctors, and Health Minister Randy Delorey said Thursday losing the residents would “be possibly linked to some inconveniences.” But he said the residency positions are funded by the Saudis for Saudi students, and the province expects it could handle the loss. In a statement, Doctors Nova Scotia concurred.

“While this news is unfortunate for these medical residents, there doesn’t seem to be a direct impact on our province’s ability to recruit and retain physicians,” it said. “While the Saudi residents are here doing their training and/or fellowships, they do provide clinic care, but for the most part, they all leave Nova Scotia as soon as they have completed their training to practice medicine elsewhere (in other countries).” Delorey said Dalhousie, the province’s health authorities and the Health Department are assessing the impact.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-nova-scotia-can-handle-loss-of-saudi-medical-residents-health-2/

Summary: Community practice shouldn't be affected. Dal and IWK are another story. 

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1 minute ago, NLengr said:

Summary: Community practice shouldn't be affected. Dal and IWK are another story. 

Agree. Primary care shouldn't be that negatively affected for my understanding is that most of the Saudi residents/fellows are in surgical (sub)specialties. 

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On 8/8/2018 at 2:02 AM, Dermviser said:

What programs do you think will be the most affected at UofT and McGill, two programs highly dependent on Saudi residents?

Mac as well. I would argue percentage wise McGill is probably the most reliant followed by Mac, then Toronto. 

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