Saudi Arabia to relocate students from Canada

[GrouchoMarx]

i think that this drama has been instigated by the liberals to gain social justice votes in the next election.

 

jt has been scandalized recently, and this is a welcome distraction for him.

 

saudi arabia is a terrible country with a troglodytic form of government, we all know that. however, they hold little economic influence over us, so to piss them off publicly affects us very little outside of this medical resident debacle, and makes jt and his liberal goons look like angels.

[indefatigable]

10 hours ago, GrouchoMarx said:

i think that this drama has been instigated by the liberals to gain social justice votes in the next election.

jt has been scandalized recently, and this is a welcome distraction for him.

saudi arabia is a terrible country with a troglodytic form of government, we all know that. however, they hold little economic influence over us, so to piss them off publicly affects us very little outside of this medical resident debacle, and makes jt and his liberal goons look like angels.

I partly agree that it does rally a lot of support around human rights.  But, to ascribe intentionality, imho would be a step too far - I don't think the dust has settled yet,  and when you look at the current arrangement, Canada's engaged in almost an "oil for weapons" deal with Saudi - where we're supplying arms to a regime that in the past two days alone crucified someone and appeared to be responsible for destroying a bus of children.  This is just going to put further focus on that contract which will not be win for the government: either jobs go or a despotic regime is supported.  

Dealing with education and health care allowed Canada to mitigate the image (or permitted self-deception) with respect to dealing with Saudi - now we're stuck with fulfilling the terms of a multi-billion dollar weapons contract to a country that has disengaged all diplomatic relationships and is considered a major human rights abuser.  Far from a win for the government, this will be a huge target in the next election - the tweet that changed everything.

In fact, here's an article from a conservative appointed former ambassador which seems to express a similar opinion regarding the tweet that I just came across.        

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/trudeau-made-a-glaring-tactical-error-thats-getting-canada-hammered-by-saudi-arabia/ar-BBLIAUm?ocid=st

[NeuroD]

3 hours ago, Edict said:

Mac as well. I would argue percentage wise McGill is probably the most reliant followed by Mac, then Toronto. 

I think you're right. CBC quotes Mac at 15%.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/hamilton-saudi-medical-residents-caught-up-in-diplomatic-spat-1.4779873

[indefatigable]

On 8 août 2018 at 4:17 PM, la marzocco said:

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1117083/medecins-arabie-saoudite-residents-depart-impact-hopitaux-barrette-cusm-quebec

In French, but basically saying how McGill health network will lose about 225 Saudis medical residents; that is about 18% of the total population of residents at McGill. Naturally, the Quebec health minister says that even if with their departure, it will not substantially affect the daily services in a global manner. 

The internal medicine PD at McGill was quoted as saying that it will be a difficult transition (from an internal email).  He also mentioned that it's most difficult for the Saudi residents who are worried about their future and are in a state of shock.

The president of the specialists association went on record and agreed there would be an impact on the university hospital network.

http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/sante/201808/09/01-5192563-depart-de-medecins-saoudiens-transition-difficile-redoutee-a-mcgill.php

[la marzocco]

1 hour ago, tere said:

The internal medicine PD at McGill was quoted as saying that it will be a difficult transition (from an internal email).  He also mentioned that it's most difficult for the Saudi residents who are worried about their future and are in a state of shock.

The president of the specialists association went on record and agreed there would be an impact on the university hospital network.

http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/sante/201808/09/01-5192563-depart-de-medecins-saoudiens-transition-difficile-redoutee-a-mcgill.php

Best case, I hope something transpires in the next 20 days to cool this diplomatic spat so that this withdrawal of Saudi students, residents, fellows en masse is rescinded. This is going to be a "difficult transition" indeed otherwise.

[Edict]

I think there will be a big impact in surgical specialties, some programs are losing a huge percentage of their residents. This really isn't a positive thing because there are already issues with finding jobs for grads, if programs decide to increase spots, there could be a huge negative impact on the job market in the coming years. 

[NeuroD]

A la PARO:

 

“We [PARO] have been following the situation closely and have been in contact with many of our members from Saudi Arabia. We have had the opportunity to review some of the messages they received from their government. We know that Saudi residents and fellows have been told to return home by the end of August. They have been told that Saudi Arabian Airlines will cease flights to Canada on August 13th. If they are not able to leave on or before that date, they are expected to find alternate arrangements in order to leave by August 31st.

PARO has been working diligently with the staff in the Post Graduate Offices in the Universities where Saudi residents are training. Collectively, we have been reviewing our data to ensure that we all have an accurate picture of the numbers, programs and services that will be impacted by their departure.

We have also reached out to the PG Deans to ensure that where appropriate, the Saudi residents are able to be relieved from clinical duty in order to arrange their affairs to return home. In some situations, people are having to sell homes/cars/furniture and extract themselves from long-term leases and financial commitments. We have also suggested that the status of these residents be changed to an unpaid leave of absence. In the event this situation is resolved and they are able to return, the administrative burden associated with training would be minimized. We also believe that providing them with a Leave of Absence will provide some comfort, rather than asking them to resign. Additionally, we are having discussions with the Universities to determine whether or not any training that these individuals might be able to arrange after they leave could be counted as elective time and still be credited toward their Royal College certification. All of our suggestions and inquiries have been met very positively. Our goal is to minimize the stress that our colleagues are undoubtedly dealing with and ensure a common approach across the country.

PARO is working very hard to determine where the impact on clinical service will be felt once the Saudi residents and fellows depart. We have communicated with all of the Post Graduate Deans to ensure that they, in turn, communicate with their Program Directors to ensure our members are not expected to fill the service gaps beyond what is allowed by the PARO-CAHO Collective Agreement.

PARO has also been in touch with CAHO (Council of Academic Hospitals of Ontario) as our employer to discuss what they can do to communicate to Chairs of Departments that residents who remain in the system not be expected to work beyond what the Collective Agreement permits. The general consensus seems to be that staff doctors and other fellows who are not protected contractually may have to pick up any extra work.”

[la marzocco]

https://www.ledevoir.com/monde/534186/arabie-saoudite-volet-etudiants

Penn State and Johns Hopkins have been contacted by the Saudi government to accommodate some of the medical residents and fellows who are currently in Canada. 

According to Gilles Patry, the director of the U15, Penn State has been asked to welcome 19 Saudi medical residents/fellows and Johns Hopkins 24.

[NeuroD]

23 minutes ago, la marzocco said:

https://www.ledevoir.com/monde/534186/arabie-saoudite-volet-etudiants

Penn State and Johns Hopkins have been contacted by the Saudi government to accommodate some of the medical residents and fellows who are currently in Canada. 

 According to Gilles Patry, the director of the U15, Penn State has been asked to welcome 19 Saudi medical residents/fellows and Johns Hopkins 24.

Saudi can probably afford to offer them more $$$ than they can refuse.

[JohnGrisham]

3 hours ago, PhD2MD said:

Saudi can probably afford to offer them more $$$ than they can refuse.

Regardless that is not enough for all thr displaced residents

[NeuroD]

5 hours ago, JohnGrisham said:

Regardless that is not enough for all thr displaced residents

Oh no I meant Saudi can afford to offer the schools more than they can refuse. This lets them buy there way out of looking like they hurt their own people. I doubt their actually compensating the residents much.

[NLengr]

28 minutes ago, PhD2MD said:

Oh no I meant Saudi can afford to offer the schools more than they can refuse. This lets them buy there way out of looking like they hurt their own people. I doubt their actually compensating the residents much.

I imagine they aren't either. KSA doesn't really give a damn about it's own common people. 

[strawberryjams]

Why not just replace the saudi residents with some other wealthy students from Carribean and send them to USA to practice? Some wealthy carribbean students definitely have the money for residency and could very well practice in another country after residency Then we can send them back to another country or saudi to practice. lol

[JohnGrisham]

21 minutes ago, strawberryjams said:

Why not just replace the saudi residents with some other wealthy students from Carribean and send them to USA to practice? Some wealthy carribbean students definitely have the money for residency and could very well practice in another country after residency Then we can send them back to another country or saudi to practice. lol

Because it wouldnt be as easy to discriminate against Canadian citizens. You'd have to give them the licenses to practice etc in canada. 

Also why would they pay for residency when they can get it in the US in the first place especially if thats where they will end up.

I am 100% against having people pay their way into residency with the ability to then have licensure to practice. At least in the Saudi case, they are being sent back without ability to generally stay and practice(sure a few anecdotal exceptions but rare). 

 

[rmorelan]

On 8/9/2018 at 4:23 PM, GrouchoMarx said:

i think that this drama has been instigated by the liberals to gain social justice votes in the next election.

 

jt has been scandalized recently, and this is a welcome distraction for him.

 

saudi arabia is a terrible country with a troglodytic form of government, we all know that. however, they hold little economic influence over us, so to piss them off publicly affects us very little outside of this medical resident debacle, and makes jt and his liberal goons look like angels.

maybe but I like to follow a modified Hanlon's razor approach to stuff like this

"Never attribute to intelligence that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

regardless of your political leanings, what aspect of their recent political maneuverings suggest to you that they are operating at that level of craftiness?   

 

[strawberryjams]

5 minutes ago, JohnGrisham said:

Because it wouldnt be as easy to discriminate against Canadian citizens. You'd have to give them the licenses to practice etc in canada. 

Also why would they pay for residency when they can get it in the US in the first place especially if thats where they will end up.

I am 100% against having people pay their way into residency with the ability to then have licensure to practice. At least in the Saudi case, they are being sent back without ability to generally stay and practice(sure a few anecdotal exceptions but rare). 

 

Good point. Well carribean doctors can practice in Australia or other countries with canadian training. even saudi will take them.

[Edict]

On 8/11/2018 at 10:50 AM, strawberryjams said:

Good point. Well carribean doctors can practice in Australia or other countries with canadian training. even saudi will take them.

We wouldn't be able to give residency to Canadian citizens trained in the Caribbean without giving them the right to practice here. Regardless, this is not good practice. 

[rmorelan]

12 hours ago, Edict said:

We wouldn't be able to give residency to Canadian citizens trained in the Caribbean without giving them the right to practice here. Regardless, this is not good practice. 

true - we also wouldn't be able to do it without also opening it up as well to anyone else internationally trained to apply. 

and often these students are not rich - or rather their parents aren't. Not what most people think of as being rich at least - they are usually more well off professionals that are willing to dig deep to pay for their children's education. The funding is still a huge strain, and paying another roughly 500K for a 5 year residency (which is less than the sum of what the schools get and the salary for Saudi residents) is a huge financial cost. 

[indefatigable]

"Saudi student in Canada shares how the diplomatic feud is devastating his dreams after years of hard work".   Also, an inside look at the Saudi student community.  

"I left Saudi Arabia nearly a decade ago to do my graduate studies in Canada. I was sponsored by the generous Saudi government. Why Canada, you may ask? Because it is one of the most welcoming and freedom-supporting countries, with huge diversity. Every ethnicity and religion, living in peace, minding their own business and contributing to society. This is the role model of countries; this is Canada. 
On Aug.  5, 2018, I was working on the final touches of my doctoral thesis, getting ready to send it to my thesis supervisor in preparation for the final PhD defence. This is the result of the hard work I've been doing in the past five years! No, this is actually what my life has been leading toward since I started elementary in a public school in Riyadh. I had published several articles about my research, met many professionals and created many connections. I was ready to finish it all!

...
Can we start a petition? Nope, it could be considered a protest, and protests are strictly illegal in Saudi Arabia and will lead to imprisonment

....
Saudis are starting to share details on cargo companies, flights, when they're leaving, where they're going. It's a sad situation. Everyone's moving somewhere, and this month is probably the last month I will be able to hang with the community we formed throughout the years. I still have many Canadian friends who are very supportive. But why do I have to choose between two devastating choices? Why did it have to come to this? All because of a tweet, and the ego of a 32-year-old man."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/saudi-arabia-student-leave-canada-riyadh-1.4786874

 

 

[indefatigable]

On 9 août 2018 at 2:31 PM, NLengr said:

Summary: Community practice shouldn't be affected. Dal and IWK are another story. 

Good call.

“For us in cardiac surgery and orthopedic surgery I would describe this as a crisis, yes, because . . . in one fell swoop we’re losing one-third of our important resident body,” said Dr. Bill Oxner, an orthopedic surgeon and acting chief of surgery at the Halifax Infirmary.

“If this hospital was losing a third of our nurses, it would be the first five pages of your newspaper, we’d be talking about it every day.”

Oxner said a conservative estimate would have each of the residents putting in 60-hour weeks. “They work hard.”

...
Don’t get me wrong, we’re going to do whatever we can to minimize the impact. We’ll scramble and we’ll work on some strategies to mitigate this, we’ll try to get more GPs from the community to help us assist in the ORs, but we’re limited, we need a long-term solution to replace these bodies. The people we’re losing we need replaced.”

http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/1591039-losing-saudi-doctors-will-create-staffing-crisis-surgeon

[indefatigable]

On 12 août 2018 at 10:35 PM, Edict said:

We wouldn't be able to give residency to Canadian citizens trained in the Caribbean without giving them the right to practice here. Regardless, this is not good practice. 

Looks like an influential doctor/columnist is advocating for turning the Saudi residency spots into essentially general IMG positions (probably CMG first), funded by the provincial governments (presumably).  I found it interesting he was advocating for IMGs quite strongly, referring to some Caribbean schools as "excellent".  Anyways, I can see this sounding popular to the public as a "fix" to the crisis and for IMGs studying abroad (and cheaper than hiring more staff)- but after their training, the specialty job problem already mentioned will just get worse.  

"Meanwhile there is a treasure trove of other well qualified doctors available for residency training in Canada: Canadian International Medical Graduates (CIMGs). These are mainly students who satisfied the requirements to get into the limited number of Canadian medical school posts, but didn’t make the cut, and so to pursue their career goals have gone to overseas medical schools. In 2010, it was estimated that there were no fewer than 3,570 Canadian citizens studying medicine abroad. Many are in very well-established medical schools in Ireland, Australia and Europe, which offer significant numbers of positions for international students. Others are in the “off-shore” schools that are American privately owned businesses that have proliferated, particularly in the Caribbean. These are of mixed quality but a few are excellent. The important fact is that 90 per cent of CIMGs want to return to Canada for further training and to work here, but only a few are accepted. Just imagine the far-reaching benefits to our medical manpower shortages if more of these “eager-beavers” were allowed into those 750-to–1,000 training positions currently held by certain other international medical graduates."

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/stewart-saudi-arabian-medical-trainees-in-canada-mask-a-problem-we-should-correct

[NeuroD]

4 hours ago, tere said:

Looks like an influential doctor/columnist is advocating for turning the Saudi residency spots into essentially general IMG positions (probably CMG first), funded by the provincial governments.  I found it interesting he was advocating for IMGs quite strongly, referring to some Caribbean schools as "excellent".  Anyways, I can see this sounding popular to the public as a "fix" to the crisis and for IMGs studying abroad (and cheaper than hiring more staff)- but after their training, the specialty job problem already mentioned will just get worse.  

"Meanwhile there is a treasure trove of other well qualified doctors available for residency training in Canada: Canadian International Medical Graduates (CIMGs). These are mainly students who satisfied the requirements to get into the limited number of Canadian medical school posts, but didn’t make the cut, and so to pursue their career goals have gone to overseas medical schools. In 2010, it was estimated that there were no fewer than 3,570 Canadian citizens studying medicine abroad. Many are in very well-established medical schools in Ireland, Australia and Europe, which offer significant numbers of positions for international students. Others are in the “off-shore” schools that are American privately owned businesses that have proliferated, particularly in the Caribbean. These are of mixed quality but a few are excellent. The important fact is that 90 per cent of CIMGs want to return to Canada for further training and to work here, but only a few are accepted. Just imagine the far-reaching benefits to our medical manpower shortages if more of these “eager-beavers” were allowed into those 750-to–1,000 training positions currently held by certain other international medical graduates."

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/stewart-saudi-arabian-medical-trainees-in-canada-mask-a-problem-we-should-correct

Well if was talking about provincially funded residency spots, you would expect they would at least first fund enough spots so but fewer CMGs go unmatched

[indefatigable]

1 hour ago, PhD2MD said:

Well if was talking about provincially funded residency spots, you would expect they would at least first fund enough spots so but fewer CMGs go unmatched

He doesn't really go into the details - it's more big picture.  He mentions the justification for the IMG-accessible residency positions due to a "doctor shortage" which isn't met by CMGs (see below).  It's hard to take his proposal seriously - because the affected specialties by the Saudi cuts are not generally in high-demand specialties, unlike FM.  I just wonder if his proposal will pick up steam after being published in an Ottawa paper and somehow end up converting the presumably lost Saudi residency spots, which are causing a problem, into say 1st round CMG positions (which are then free for IMGs in the second round) which would be provincially funded.  

"In spite of this, it is an alarming fact that this year 115 new graduates from Canadian medical schools did not match to a Canadian residency program, and so have been unable to train and practise here. Even if this unfortunate group were granted training positions, it would have made little dent in our doctor shortages."

[Edict]

6 hours ago, tere said:

Looks like an influential doctor/columnist is advocating for turning the Saudi residency spots into essentially general IMG positions (probably CMG first), funded by the provincial governments (presumably).  I found it interesting he was advocating for IMGs quite strongly, referring to some Caribbean schools as "excellent".  Anyways, I can see this sounding popular to the public as a "fix" to the crisis and for IMGs studying abroad (and cheaper than hiring more staff)- but after their training, the specialty job problem already mentioned will just get worse.  

"Meanwhile there is a treasure trove of other well qualified doctors available for residency training in Canada: Canadian International Medical Graduates (CIMGs). These are mainly students who satisfied the requirements to get into the limited number of Canadian medical school posts, but didn’t make the cut, and so to pursue their career goals have gone to overseas medical schools. In 2010, it was estimated that there were no fewer than 3,570 Canadian citizens studying medicine abroad. Many are in very well-established medical schools in Ireland, Australia and Europe, which offer significant numbers of positions for international students. Others are in the “off-shore” schools that are American privately owned businesses that have proliferated, particularly in the Caribbean. These are of mixed quality but a few are excellent. The important fact is that 90 per cent of CIMGs want to return to Canada for further training and to work here, but only a few are accepted. Just imagine the far-reaching benefits to our medical manpower shortages if more of these “eager-beavers” were allowed into those 750-to–1,000 training positions currently held by certain other international medical graduates."

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/stewart-saudi-arabian-medical-trainees-in-canada-mask-a-problem-we-should-correct

This doctor is clearly misinformed when he wrote that "we have a shortage of doctors". In the specialties that have a lot of saudi residents, there are very few jobs, as a result, simply hiring more CMGs or IMGs would create an even worse problem down the road. The issue is that there is a lack of mid-level labour in hospitals. 

[indefatigable]

17 minutes ago, Edict said:

This doctor is clearly misinformed when he wrote that "we have a shortage of doctors". In the specialties that have a lot of saudi residents, there are very few jobs, as a result, simply hiring more CMGs or IMGs would create an even worse problem down the road. The issue is that there is a lack of mid-level labour in hospitals. 

Yeah - agree.  tried to mention that in my last post.  Guess it may not have been clear :)