Saudi Arabia to relocate students from Canada

[la marzocco]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/saudi-arabia-university-students-scholarships-withdrawn-1.4776121

Saudi Arabia telling more than 150 students to leave University of Regina

• 153 Saudi Arabian students were enrolled at the University of Regina, 9 at the University of Saskatchewan.
• More than 150 students at the University of Regina are being told they have a month to leave the country after officials in Saudi Arabia announced a plan to move thousands of Saudi scholarship students out of Canadian schools.

[NeuroD]

U of T sent an email telling their residents they were OK until the end of August, but they can't promise anything beyond that.

I'm concerned about McGill in particular. I've from (surgical) residents there that they're particularly dependent on Saudi IMGs.

[la marzocco]

https://www.sudbury.com/national/saudi-students-given-four-weeks-to-leave-canada-even-if-studies-not-completed-1007846

• Saudi students in Canadian universities have been given four weeks to pack their bags and leave the country, two senior university officials said Tuesday.
• University of Toronto vice-provost Joseph Wong said Saudi students have received notification telling them they have a month to finish their studies and leave Canada. His university has 77 undergraduate and graduate students from Saudi Arabia, both new and returning, for the 2018-2019 school year.
• It also has 216 medical residents and fellows from Saudi Arabia who are being trained in hospitals affiliated with the university under a long-standing program.
• In Saskatchewan, another university official also mentioned the four-week deadline that more than 150 Saudi students at the University of Regina are facing.
• "The students have been asked by the kingdom of Saudi Arabia to continue their studies if they are currently registered in the spring and summer session, but to deregister or cancel their registration for the fall of 2018 and to leave Canada within four weeks of the departure of the Canadian ambassador to Riyadh," said Livia Castellanos, the university's associate vice-president (international).

 

[la marzocco]

Just now, PhD2MD said:

U of T sent an email telling their residents they were OK until the end of August, but they can't promise anything beyond that.

I'm concerned about McGill in particular. I've from (surgical) residents there that they're particularly dependent on Saudi IMGs.

Yea. The article I read said 216 residents and fellows associated with U of T may be affected..

McGill University confirmed 327 students from Saudi Arabia attended the school during the 2017-2018 academic year, though it could not say how many were registered for the fall semester. 

[rmorelan]

1 minute ago, la marzocco said:

https://www.sudbury.com/national/saudi-students-given-four-weeks-to-leave-canada-even-if-studies-not-completed-1007846

• Saudi students in Canadian universities have been given four weeks to pack their bags and leave the country, two senior university officials said Tuesday.
• University of Toronto vice-provost Joseph Wong said Saudi students have received notification telling them they have a month to finish their studies and leave Canada. His university has 77 undergraduate and graduate students from Saudi Arabia, both new and returning, for the 2018-2019 school year.
• It also has 216 medical residents and fellows from Saudi Arabia who are being trained in hospitals affiliated with the university under a long-standing program.
• In Saskatchewan, another university official also mentioned the four-week deadline that more than 150 Saudi students at the University of Regina are facing.
• "The students have been asked by the kingdom of Saudi Arabia to continue their studies if they are currently registered in the spring and summer session, but to deregister or cancel their registration for the fall of 2018 and to leave Canada within four weeks of the departure of the Canadian ambassador to Riyadh," said Livia Castellanos, the university's associate vice-president (international).

 

yeah this is going to be a huge mess for everyone........ Huge disruption for those forced to leave, and on a purely hospital level the call schedule is going to be a disaster

 

[NeuroD]

Just now, rmorelan said:

yeah this is going to be a huge mess for everyone........ Huge disruption for those forced to leave, and on a purely hospital level the call schedule is going to be a disaster

  

No doubt this sucks most for the people leaving....but a lot of services are going to grind to a halt. It'll be interesting to see how this will work out politically, especially in Ontario. I imagine the real long term solution to this will be to return the CMG spots that have been cut over the last decade, but those will cost money. The Ontario PCs are trying to cut spending, so increasing residency funding probably wasn't on their agenda. That being said, it's probably cheaper than having to deal with the political backlash of the healthcare system grinding to a halt shortly after winning the election.

[rmorelan]

4 minutes ago, PhD2MD said:

No doubt this sucks most for the people leaving....but a lot of services are going to grind to a halt. It'll be interesting to see how this will work out politically, especially in Ontario. I imagine the real long term solution to this will be to return the CMG spots that have been cut over the last decade, but those will cost money. The Ontario PCs are trying to cut spending, so increasing residency funding probably wasn't on their agenda. That being said, it's probably cheaper than having to deal with the political backlash of the healthcare system grinding to a halt shortly after winning the election.

Yeah I am not sure - it doesn't have to go to just the residents here either - they could keep things the same, force staff to work harder and/or hire fellows which are not paid by the province. The province could just say not my problem basically. 

Residency programs in general will be hit because the funding obtain subsidized them. It will be interesting to see how that is factored in. 

[Arztin]

I just can't imagine how McGill is going to function if the saudi folks leave. Staff physicians will have to come round early and show up during their calls.

Look at this program for example:

https://www.mcgill.ca/orthopaedics/residency-program/current-residents

Neurosurg must be similar.

I hope residents won't get bullied even more to stay during post call days, or to do longer calls.

[la marzocco]

Fresh off the press: Riyadh to transfer all Saudi patients in Canada out of the country

• Saudi Arabia has stopped all medical treatment programs in Canada and is coordinating for the transfer of all Saudi patients from Canadian hospitals to hospitals outside the North American country, the Saudi Press Agency said early on Wednesday.
• The agency cited Saudi Health Attaché in the United States of America and Canada, Dr. Fahd bin Ibrahim Al Tamimi.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/08/saudi-arabia-reportedly-stops-all-medical-treatment-programs-in-canada.html

[insomnias]

2 hours ago, rmorelan said:

 

Residency programs in general will be hit because the funding obtain subsidized them. It will be interesting to see how that is factored in. 

Could this actually result in more residency spots being cut? -_-

[JohnGrisham]

1 hour ago, Arztin said:

I just can't imagine how McGill is going to function if the saudi folks leave. Staff physicians will have to come round early and show up during their calls.

Look at this program for example:

https://www.mcgill.ca/orthopaedics/residency-program/current-residents

Neurosurg must be similar.

I hope residents won't get bullied even more to stay during post call days, or to do longer calls.

Oh they definitely will!

[NLengr]

1 hour ago, JohnGrisham said:

Oh they definitely will!

Yeah the remaining residents are gonna get screwed. No (or at least very few) academic physicians are gonna be covering first call or doing scut on the floor because of lack of residents. They're gonna abuse the hell out of the remaining residents is my bet. Can't have the academic guys lower themselves to things like writing orders, filling out paperwork or seeing people in the ER......

It'll be hilarious if the staff do end up forced to do those things. In the community, staff have set up systems to reduce scut, inefficiencies in running the floor and unnecessary consults. In academia, in my experience, the staff didn't care to fix those kind of issues because the residents had to deal with them. Staff were happy to just ignore the issue and let the residents do the extra work despite complaints from the residents. If the academic guys are now gonna have to suffer for ignoring the problems residents complained about for years then they will only have themselves to blame. They will have to reap what they have sown.

Fellows are probably gonna suffer too. Many fellowship contracts have a clause that says something like "...provide coverage of resident call as needed...". I would expect that clause will be used to fill the gaps. 

[Dermviser]

What programs do you think will be the most affected at UofT and McGill, two programs highly dependent on Saudi residents?

[NLengr]

3 hours ago, la marzocco said:

Fresh off the press: Riyadh to transfer all Saudi patients in Canada out of the country

• Saudi Arabia has stopped all medical treatment programs in Canada and is coordinating for the transfer of all Saudi patients from Canadian hospitals to hospitals outside the North American country, the Saudi Press Agency said early on Wednesday.
• The agency cited Saudi Health Attaché in the United States of America and Canada, Dr. Fahd bin Ibrahim Al Tamimi.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/08/saudi-arabia-reportedly-stops-all-medical-treatment-programs-in-canada.html

I like how the Saudi's are acting calmly here. Doesn't seem like an over reaction at all or anything......What are they gonna do when a country does something to them worse than a semi "insulting" tweet?

 

As much as I dislike Trudeau, I'm glad he's not backing down on this. Saudi deserves to be called out for their human rights abuses. 

[NeuroD]

8 hours ago, insomnias said:

Could this actually result in more residency spots being cut?

if governments in hospitals do literally nothing to address the crisis that's going to happen, then technically yes we could actually lose more residency spots. But if that were the outcome, we'd have much bigger problems. Our Healthcare System would grind to a halt. I don't think either Trudeau's or Fords conservatives could afford that hard of a political hit right now. So even if they don't want two, chances are they're both going to pay in to prevent this from becoming a catastrophe.

[NeuroD]

6 hours ago, Dermviser said:

What programs do you think will be the most affected at UofT and McGill, two programs highly dependent on Saudi residents?

Surgical specialties, and pathology.

[indefatigable]

9 hours ago, NLengr said:

I like how the Saudi's are acting calmly here. Doesn't seem like an over reaction at all or anything......What are they gonna do when a country does something to them worse than a semi "insulting" tweet?

As much as I dislike Trudeau, I'm glad he's not backing down on this. Saudi deserves to be called out for their human rights abuses. 

It's times like these that I'm glad that I'm a citizen of a constitutional and not absolute monarchy.  

I'm just worried it might turn into a hollow victory, not actually changing much for the detained activists (nor Saudi society) nor help Canada much either (with respect to education, health care and other trade).

 Both the US and UK, previous "top destinations" came out with vague "neutral" statements with respect to the conflict and Ireland and NZ are now being mentioned as top places.  Trudeau could hope Saudi does get delegitimatized, at least among Western countries.  For example, both Ireland and NZ have progressive leadership, and would be both unacceptable in Saudi - Ireland's PM is openly gay and NZ's PM is a woman.  But, timing is everything here - if the countries did say something even vaguely supportive about human rights ( in the future it would actually cause Saudi more of a problem), it could force the Saudis to try and save face again.  They could still end up in a place like Singapore, though.

In Sweden, their king apparently acted as a mediator to diffuse the rift.  Canada has mentioned UAE as an ally to intervene, but UAE is fighting alongside Saudi, and has already issued a statement supporting Saudi.  

BTW - in case you were worried, MBS does live pretty well - he recently bought a chateau near Paris, for a cool 300 mill after buying a yacht for 400 mill.  

[NLengr]

34 minutes ago, tere said:

Canada has mentioned UAE as an ally to intervene, but UAE is fighting alongside Saudi, and has already issued a statement supporting Saudi.  

Not surprising.....they've got a long history of also abusing fundamental human rights. The last thing they want to do is support Canada's position here.

I still say the best thing to do is let the Saudi's throw their little hissy fit and ignore them. If we back down all we do is embolden them to further abuse human rights and dissuade other countries from issuing legitimate criticism

[NeuroD]

37 minutes ago, NLengr said:

Not surprising.....they've got a long history of also abusing fundamental human rights. The last thing they want to do is support Canada's position here.

I still say the best thing to do is let the Saudi's throw their little hissy fit and ignore them. If we back down all we do is embolden them to further abuse human rights and dissuade other countries from issuing legitimate criticism

I agree. We could stick to our guns and come out with some dignity/moral high ground, without too much cost. Trudeau and provincial governments would have invest in healthcare at least in the short term to prevent Canada from feeling the consequence.

I hope there is some organized group/s representing residents and fellows, and that they're preparing to sound the alarm bells with politicians. It would be terrible if we're all just complaining because we see what's coming from the inside, but we don't actually do anything about it.

[JohnGrisham]

14 minutes ago, PhD2MD said:

I agree. We could stick to our guns and come out with some dignity/moral high ground, without too much cost. Trudeau and provincial governments would have invest in healthcare at least in the short term to prevent Canada from feeling the consequence.

I hope there is some organized group/s representing residents and fellows, and that they're preparing to sound the alarm bells with politicians. It would be terrible if we're all just complaining because we see what's coming from the inside, but we don't actually do anything about it.

That should be the job of the respective provincial residents associations.

[rmorelan]

5 minutes ago, JohnGrisham said:

That should be the job of the respective provincial residents associations.

and they will - particularly in Quebec. Still the actual call rules if followed maximally are still quite brutal if used long term. 

[la marzocco]

3 minutes ago, rmorelan said:

and they will - particularly in Quebec. Still the actual call rules if followed maximally are still quite brutal if used long term. 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-canadian-teaching-hospitals-scrambling-to-resolve-how-saudi-student/

• Teaching hospitals across the country are scrambling to replace nearly 800 Saudi Arabian doctors-in-training after the kingdom ordered all of its sponsored students out of Canada in retaliation for Ottawa criticizing the country’s human-rights record.
• “Residents and fellows provide a great deal of direct clinical care to patients. They’re part of the on-call schedules and in all our clinics and operating rooms,” said Brian Hodges, executive vice-president for education at Toronto’s University Health Network (UHN), which is currently hosting 50 fellows and 36 residents from the Middle Eastern country.
• The Saudi Arabian Cultural Bureau, the organization that co-ordinates the kingdom’s medical training programs with Canadian universities, has negotiated a “grace period” with the Saudi government, Dr. Spadafora wrote in the e-mail obtained by The Globe and Mail.
• Other major cities that would be affected by the withdrawal of Saudi residents and fellows include Montreal, where more than 200 of McGill University’s post-MD trainees are from the kingdom, and London, Ont., where 54 of University of Western Ontario’s trainees are Saudis.

Hopefully they hash something out for these residents/fellows.. all the while I am reading that Saudi Arabia has started to sell off large amounts of Canadian assets causing the loonie to take a big hit. 

[NeuroD]

11 minutes ago, JohnGrisham said:

That should be the job of the respective provincial residents associations.

I hope they're vocal enough. Watching the for the last couple of years OMA makes skeptical about doctors' advocating for themselves. Although I feel PARO and FMRQ are a lot more vocal than the OMA.

[NLengr]

11 minutes ago, rmorelan said:

and they will - particularly in Quebec. Still the actual call rules if followed maximally are still quite brutal if used long term. 

1:4 in house call for 5 years would be brutal. 1:3 home call may be worse (when I was a "home call" resident I'd almost always be in from 7 am - midnight while on call).

[canada747]

Is it possible then that the government will replace these residency spots with spots for Canadians? Since we need the residents. I realize it's a funding issue since Saudi Arabia sponsored those residencies that they're taking back.