Looking at ROS/Incentive Options

[Birdy]

Hey people,

I’m a PGY-1 FM in Ontario but not planning to practice here, since I’ve always wanted to head back East to practice. 

Since I have a ton of student debt, almost four kids, and many provinces are more than willing to incentivize new doctors to come their way, I’m looking at a few ROS/incentive possibilities to help lighten the load. They range from $38k-$110k with agreements up to five years. I’d considered signing one in med school but decided against it to keep my options open, but now having decided on family practice for sure, I’m comfortable going for it. 

I’m hoping to hear from people who looked into recruitment incentives, whether or not you decided to sign an agreement. Also just looking for advice  

What sorts of things should I be looking to ensure are included or excluded?

Is it appropriate/acceptable to ask one province if they are capable of/willing to match a program from another province? 

Whom would be best to review the agreements before signing (financial advisor, lawyer, PGME advisor, provincial associations?)

Any suggestions for things to consider would be appreciated. 

[ploughboy]

I know I've said this before, but a good resource is the Practice Management Seminars offered by MD Management.  They talk about things like contracts, negotiating agreements, recruitment incentives, setting up practice, etc.

At least, when I finished it was offered by MDM.  It looks like it's being offered by the CMA directly now...  https://joule.cma.ca/en/learn/practice-management-curriculum.html

Snooping a little bit, it looks like they're going to be giving one to the Mac PGY-2s next Wednesday, and again on the 18th of December.  Even though you're PGY-1, you've got a lot of things to consider, and it might be worth your while seeing if you can sneak into one of them this year.

 

[ploughboy]

Oh, and never sign a contract without talking to a lawyer.

[Birdy]

24 minutes ago, ploughboy said:

I know I've said this before, but a good resource is the Practice Management Seminars offered by MD Management.  They talk about things like contracts, negotiating agreements, recruitment incentives, setting up practice, etc.

At least, when I finished it was offered by MDM.  It looks like it's being offered by the CMA directly now...  https://joule.cma.ca/en/learn/practice-management-curriculum.html

Snooping a little bit, it looks like they're going to be giving one to the Mac PGY-2s next Wednesday, and again on the 18th of December.  Even though you're PGY-1, you've got a lot of things to consider, and it might be worth your while seeing if you can sneak into one of them this year.

 

Might try seeing about sneaking into it since I have nothing to do as I’m off work until after my maternity leave. Cant hurt to try anyway. 

Part of wanting to figure things out a little earlier is that I’ll need to approach these agreements somewhat differently because I’ll be off-cycle - finishing in December - due to my six month maternity leave. Lots of the contracts require starting practice within 1-4 months of finishing residency, but that would be during the school year for my kids and I’d rather see about negotiating a longer lead time sort of thing.  

Thanks for the info about the talks; I’ll pop a message to one of the PGY-2s. 

[A-Stark]

On 9/10/2018 at 9:53 PM, Birdy said:

What sorts of things should I be looking to ensure are included or excluded?

These contracts take the form of explicit ROS agreements or somewhat looser bursaries. Either way, they're largely the same and simply prescribe a certain term of service in exchange for X dollars. Variations will be about the specifics of the position (e.g. just working in a particular region or a particular hospital?). Note these generally are NOT contracts insofar as they don't generally define a position description or specifics of what you might be doing. 

On 9/10/2018 at 9:53 PM, Birdy said:

Is it appropriate/acceptable to ask one province if they are capable of/willing to match a program from another province? 

You can be honest with recruiter types about other places you are considering. The ROS side of things is not a negotiation, however, and the amounts involved are set by provincial health departments, often varying with region. When it comes to negotiating around a position description, you will have more leeway, but that's at the stage near the end of training when you're defining a specific position. 

On 9/10/2018 at 9:53 PM, Birdy said:

Whom would be best to review the agreements before signing (financial advisor, lawyer, PGME advisor, provincial associations?)

PGME is not the place to go with this. You can talk to your MDM advisor, but CMPA may be a better (free) resource. Provincial associations will not review any contract but can comment on items that would typically be included. Otherwise talk to a lawyer. Cost will be in the range of $1000. 

[LittleDaisy]

On 9/10/2018 at 10:53 PM, Birdy said:

Might try seeing about sneaking into it since I have nothing to do as I’m off work until after my maternity leave. Cant hurt to try anyway. 

Part of wanting to figure things out a little earlier is that I’ll need to approach these agreements somewhat differently because I’ll be off-cycle - finishing in December - due to my six month maternity leave. Lots of the contracts require starting practice within 1-4 months of finishing residency, but that would be during the school year for my kids and I’d rather see about negotiating a longer lead time sort of thing.  

Thanks for the info about the talks; I’ll pop a message to one of the PGY-2s. 

I just want to let you know that you could take longer than 6 months of maternity leave. Some colleagues of mine have taken 12 months, which is the maximum amount of maternity & paternity leave as per PARO contract. You definitely want to spend more time with newborn baby. Advocate ++++ for maternity leave duration.

For contracts, as CMPA to give you a list of lawyers who have extensive experience reviewing physicians' contracts. 

[Birdy]

13 hours ago, LittleDaisy said:

I just want to let you know that you could take longer than 6 months of maternity leave. Some colleagues of mine have taken 12 months, which is the maximum amount of maternity & paternity leave as per PARO contract. You definitely want to spend more time with newborn baby. Advocate ++++ for maternity leave duration.

For contracts, as CMPA to give you a list of lawyers who have extensive experience reviewing physicians' contracts. 

Oh I know I can take longer, I just don’t want to. It’s purely my own decision, I haven’t faced any pressure one way or the other from my program. 

Not everyone enjoys long parental leaves, so please don’t tell me what I want. This is my fourth child and I know my own preferences. I enjoy working outside the home. My husband prefers being at home caring for the children. This dynamic works for us. 

[A-Stark]

16 hours ago, LittleDaisy said:

For contracts, as CMPA to give you a list of lawyers who have extensive experience reviewing physicians' contracts. 

They provided me a list but it wasn't actually helpful at all. One of them never returned me call and the other was apparently too busy. Any that have experience in employment contracts will do. 

[LittleDaisy]

3 hours ago, Birdy said:

Oh I know I can take longer, I just don’t want to. It’s purely my own decision, I haven’t faced any pressure one way or the other from my program. 

Not everyone enjoys long parental leaves, so please don’t tell me what I want. This is my fourth child and I know my own preferences. I enjoy working outside the home. My husband prefers being at home caring for the children. This dynamic works for us. 

Sounds good! 

For lawyers, you could also ask MD financials, they do provide a good list of accountants and lawyers who have extensive experience with physicians.