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Briannaxox

Is the Medical Profession Slowly Deteriorating?

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Good afternoon everyone, 

I am wondering, what do the rest of you think about international medical graduates (IMGs). In my opinion, I believe going the Caribbean for example, should be 100% barred. I'm getting pretty tired of people advertising themselves as doctors even when they go to the caribbean lol as if that's real medicine. Going international eliminates the satisfaction and prestige of becoming a doctor for everyone that gets in here. IMO it tarnishes the prestige and satisfaction of becoming a doctor. Another way to think about it is, since any one (and I mean almost any one) can game their way into becoming a doctor, it it really an accomplishment? Therefore, in my opinion, professional degrees in general (not just medicine) are not "special" any more if anyone with a subpar GPA, MCAT, etc. can do it. I know what some you of you might say.. that "marks don't define you" etc. and this is indeed correct. But it's not about just the marks themselves, it's about excelling in what you do. An individual should excel in academia, extracurriculars, etc. because these things correlate with not only intellect, but more importantly with hard work, dedication, and persistence.  I believe a certain level of competition must be maintained in order to keep a profession qualified -- and from the looks of it there are too many loop holes to bypass the competition. Pardon me if this sounds arrogant, but I am very haphazardly going for medicine now because I feel like I shouldn't have to share the profession with people who are less qualified than me in terms of ALL admission criteria.  

I am curious about what the rest of you have to say about this.  Everyone, please take some time to chime in. 

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1 minute ago, vino said:

I know this is probably a troll post but personally I would rather see hard working, altruistic, genuine,  IMG's land residency in Canada over the handful of narcissistic CMG's with a god complex who probably lack in bedside manner and think the world revolves around them. 

I mean you could have the exact opposite scenario occur with those two as well.

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This post frustrates me to no end because it assumes equal opportunities for all students who apply to medical school. You have an immature understanding of the world if you're going to assume that cultural, socioeconomic or health factors shouldn't be taken into consideration when determining an arbitrary level of "excellence". While you're correct in saying that hard work and persistence are important, so is financial stability and wellness. If you have an issue with practising with others who may have taken a different route and can't come to terms with the fact that people have different paths than you, perhaps you should reevaluate your definition of service in medicine.

 

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54 minutes ago, IMislove said:

I mean you could have the exact opposite scenario occur with those two as well.

Agreed.....but guys honestly....let's stop feeding the troll. I really hope this thread doesn't get any bigger.

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There have been many threads either directly or indirectly discussing this topic, and I myself have posted several times on it in the past, but I'll just summarize it again.

Most people know that getting admitted to an international medical school (in the Caribbean, Ireland, etc.) is relatively easy, but that is usually where the extent of their understanding on the subject ends. Few people are aware of the sheer number of academic and logistical hoops that must be jumped through in order to successfully graduate, and more importantly, match into a residency as an IMG. It is a high risk, high reward venture, and those who truly know the process and possible outcomes (including the devastating one of not matching) would never say it is easy or glamorous. In the end, the work must be put in regardless, and there are no guarantees of success.

TL:DR - going to the Caribbean is not the short cut you think it is. 

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16 hours ago, vino said:

I know this is probably a troll post but personally I would rather see hard working, altruistic, genuine,  IMG's land residency in Canada over the handful of narcissistic CMG's with a god complex who probably lack in bedside manner and think the world revolves around them. 

I know many of both of those types and I agree with you.

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1 hour ago, robclem21 said:

I know many of both of those types and I agree with you.

It really is an unfortunate reality. While the medical admissions process is definitely rigorous, it's not always perfect and some people who really have no business being in the medical field do slip through the cracks.  Anecdotally I know of a couple people who straight up lied and created fictional stories to gain sympathy or look like something they are not. In the end it's mainly the patients who are probably impacted by it.

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On September 22, 2018 at 2:28 PM, medkunoichi said:

This post frustrates me to no end because it assumes equal opportunities for all students who apply to medical school. You have an immature understanding of the world if you're going to assume that cultural, socioeconomic or health factors shouldn't be taken into consideration when determining an arbitrary level of "excellence". While you're correct in saying that hard work and persistence are important, so is financial stability and wellness. If you have an issue with practising with others who may have taken a different route and can't come to terms with the fact that people have different paths than you, perhaps you should reevaluate your definition of service in medicine.

 

Your level of intellect and convoluted logic is exactly why medicine is a fairly mediocre profession. I am not sure where I mentioned that cultural, socioeconomic factors, etc. don't hold any weight. Furthermore, your post supports mine greatly, thanks! I owe you one bud. Think about what you're saying for 2 seconds. How much does a medical school in canada cost? How much does one in the carribean cost? If you want to bring up socioeconomic factors and financial stability, you should be on my side because not everyone can afford to pay their way into fake med schools can they?  There is no standardized competition and equality if individuals that have money can pay their way in, right Mr. Holistic guy? 

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48 minutes ago, Briannaxox said:

Your level of intellect and convoluted logic is exactly why medicine is a fairly mediocre profession. I am not sure where I mentioned that cultural, socioeconomic factors, etc. don't hold any weight. Furthermore, your post supports mine greatly, thanks! I owe you one bud. Think about what you're saying for 2 seconds. How much does a medical school in canada cost? How much does one in the carribean cost? If you want to bring up socioeconomic factors and financial stability, you should be on my side because not everyone can afford to pay their way into fake med schools can they?  There is no standardized competition and equality if individuals that have money can pay their way in, right Mr. Holistic guy? 

med school in Caribbean is $20, 000 / yr.. It is less than what you pay at most Canadian schools.

 

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On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 3:34 PM, Briannaxox said:

Good afternoon everyone, 

I am wondering, what do the rest of you think about international medical graduates (IMGs). In my opinion, I believe going the Caribbean for example, should be 100% barred. I'm getting pretty tired of people advertising themselves as doctors even when they go to the caribbean lol as if that's real medicine. Going international eliminates the satisfaction and prestige of becoming a doctor for everyone that gets in here. IMO it tarnishes the prestige and satisfaction of becoming a doctor. Another way to think about it is, since any one (and I mean almost any one) can game their way into becoming a doctor, it it really an accomplishment? Therefore, in my opinion, professional degrees in general (not just medicine) are not "special" any more if anyone with a subpar GPA, MCAT, etc. can do it. I know what some you of you might say.. that "marks don't define you" etc. and this is indeed correct. But it's not about just the marks themselves, it's about excelling in what you do. An individual should excel in academia, extracurriculars, etc. because these things correlate with not only intellect, but more importantly with hard work, dedication, and persistence.  I believe a certain level of competition must be maintained in order to keep a profession qualified -- and from the looks of it there are too many loop holes to bypass the competition. Pardon me if this sounds arrogant, but I am very haphazardly going for medicine now because I feel like I shouldn't have to share the profession with people who are less qualified than me in terms of ALL admission criteria.  

I am curious about what the rest of you have to say about this.  Everyone, please take some time to chime in. 

*Sigh* I wasn't gonna write on this thread cause I thought you were really just a troll... but seeing your reply above it's pretty clear you're actually unaware of how terribly informed, for a lack of a better word that I could use on this forum, your opinion on this matter is. Those students learn real medicine, partake in real clinical situations, have to do the same national tests as every other US MDs, have to fight for the same residency spots (with major handicaps on this regard compared to other students), etc. Let the hospitals taking them in for residency or later as staff worry about whether they do "real medicine" or not.

The whole "supreme excellence in academia and extracurricular" thing that you need for CAN Medschool is not inherently necessary to the practice of medicine; it's a product of the fact that about 10x more people apply for the amount of available spots, which artificially increases the expectations of what a Med student should look like. People that reach the Caribbeans are, more often than not, just slightly below the mark for getting into that top 10% (or less) and just prefer to start studying ASAP instead of spending a whole Med program long lifetime of reapplication cycles to get into a CAN school. When in fact, of all the people that I have known that have talked to me about their experience as patients, not a single one mentioned about they were amazed by their doctor's list of extracurriculars or scholarly achievements, but rather the deciding factor in every conversation about whether they liked their doctor or not was about how much they felt that their doctor truly cared for them and treated them with empathy and respect as a human being. Excellence in extracurriculars/grades have nearly 0 correlation with this.

"Pardon me if this sounds arrogant, but I am very haphazardly going for medicine now because I feel like I shouldn't have to share the profession with people who are less qualified than me in terms of ALL admission criteria. " 

This was probably the most agreeable part of your writing. For the sake of your future patients and their families and your future colleagues, please follow your heart and reconsider being in this profession.

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@Bigboydyo I think you're not understanding my point. Of course excellence in academia and ECs doesn't correlate with being a good doctor. In fact when you break it down, even knowledge of school based stuff like sciences etc. Is very irrelevant in clinical practice. All these are just hoops you have to jump through to attain the end goal. It's a silly game we play.  You're not gonna be randomly doing Lewis structures or something while practicing lmao! My point is that in my opinion a high competition should be maintained in order to keep the profession legit. Backup plans like the states, Caribbean, England, etc. All allow an entry way for people who aren't good enough to get in here. By good enough I mean on a competitive scale. If they excelled at academia, ECs, interviewing, and everything else they would just get in here. Because no one wants to be an IMG by choice. They do it because they have no other choice, bluntly put they simply aren't good enough to get in here.   And no I'm not jealous at all because I'm not too worried, I'm very confident I'll get in here in Canada anyways. I'm just sad because allowing people that aren't good enough to normally make it into med deteriorates the integrity and prestige of the profession as a whole. 

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31 minutes ago, Briannaxox said:

@Bigboydyo I think you're not understanding my point. Of course excellence in academia and ECs doesn't correlate with being a good doctor. In fact when you break it down, even knowledge of school based stuff like sciences etc. Is very irrelevant in clinical practice. All these are just hoops you have to jump through to attain the end goal. It's a silly game we play.  You're not gonna be randomly doing Lewis structures or something while practicing lmao! My point is that in my opinion a high competition should be maintained in order to keep the profession legit. Backup plans like the states, Caribbean, England, etc. All allow an entry way for people who aren't good enough to get in here. By good enough I mean on a competitive scale. If they excelled at academia, ECs, interviewing, and everything else they would just get in here. Because no one wants to be an IMG by choice. They do it because they have no other choice, bluntly put they simply aren't good enough to get in here.   And no I'm not jealous at all because I'm not too worried, I'm very confident I'll get in here in Canada anyways. I'm just sad because allowing people that aren't good enough to normally make it into med deteriorates the integrity and prestige of the profession as a whole. 

I know several brilliant people who went to Ireland because it is only 6 years of medical school and they wanted a shorter route. They are now working as internists, Cardiologists, and surgeons at various Canadian hospitals.  People who choose to go to Ireland, States are NO less competitive than individuals who are doing med school in Canada. In fact, I would even argue that they are more competitive because they were able to make it here in Canada despite being labelled and stigmatized by ignorant people as an IMG.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Briannaxox said:

If they excelled at academia, ECs, interviewing, and everything else they would just get in here. Because no one wants to be an IMG by choice.

From my understanding, you want the profession to maintain the "Competitive" part of it intact via screening for excellence and making sure that only qualified candidates (those who put in the sacrifice and work necessary to get in) can pass through. Which I totally get, you have the right to feel that way. But what you seem to be ignoring, as I assume based on the portion that I quoted from you above, is the fact that there is no guarantee of admission into CAN medschool EVEN IF one excels at academia, ECs and interviewing! The fact of the matter is that you could be a very hardworking individual dedicated to the study and practice of medicine and still not make it into, let's say McGill University, as long as there are at least 170 students that better than you! 170 students who are also just like you. Some of them may have worked harder, some of them may have been born with better circumstances, who knows. There's always going to be (more) people that come out as "losers" from the application process, despite being more than qualified to be a med student by all accounts. You could have done everything right and still not make it in. Some people facing that issue deal with it by strengthening their application and reapplying. Others go to elsewhere. In both cases, they make huge sacrifices (some combination of time, money and study environment/obstacles they face with the school of choice), and must pass the true barriers of medicine (the national exams and getting into residency) like everyone else. 

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@bigboydyo I respect and understand what you're saying honestly. But in my opinion if they aren't In the top 170 people (like in you're example), they don't deserve it. If you're a great medical applicant but like 20% of applicants are better THAN YOU at the game of admissions then you don't deserve entry regardless of how great of a doctor you'd make. Like just a random analogy, let's say you're a great track and field star. You're excellent. But not in the top 1% that gets to go to the Olympics. Then that's it. There is no way to short cut your way into the Olympics. You stay in the provincials etc. but no Olympics for you. If every decent runner could make it to the Olympics then the Olympics would suck wouldnt they lol I don't know why people assume this is a troll. It is not. Allowing ways to bypass competition undermines the integrity and legitimacy of any system (medicine is just an example). 

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8 hours ago, Briannaxox said:

@bigboydyo I respect and understand what you're saying honestly. But in my opinion if they aren't In the top 170 people (like in you're example), they don't deserve it. If you're a great medical applicant but like 20% of applicants are better THAN YOU at the game of admissions then you don't deserve entry regardless of how great of a doctor you'd make. Like just a random analogy, let's say you're a great track and field star. You're excellent. But not in the top 1% that gets to go to the Olympics. Then that's it. There is no way to short cut your way into the Olympics. You stay in the provincials etc. but no Olympics for you. If every decent runner could make it to the Olympics then the Olympics would suck wouldnt they lol I don't know why people assume this is a troll. It is not. Allowing ways to bypass competition undermines the integrity and legitimacy of any system (medicine is just an example). 

This is literally the worst example. If you watched the Winter Olympics recently you would have heard about this story:

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/4035507/how-a-skier-who-can-hardly-jump-made-it-to-the-olympic-halfpipe/amp/

There is always an alternative way to achieve your goal.

I am quite concerned about your ability to demonstrate empathy. Medical school admissions are not black and white. Having been on the interview committees for medical school selection on a few occasions, I can assure you that there is a greater portion of luck involved in the whole process than you may think. There is generally a handful of amazing applicants that are easy to identify, a handful of terrible applicants and the rest fall into the middle where how you rank them would most likely vary significantly from interviewer to interviewer.

The fact you are so sure that you will be accepted into a Canadian Medical School before even applying is a little concerning. My only suggestion for you is to try and develop more tolerance and humility before interviews come around. 

Also, please keep in mind that if you get into medical school, many of your staff will be IMG’s. If you come into interactions with them with this mindset, you will burn a lot of bridges.

Finally, if you do get into medical school, you will soon realize that medicine is not as prestigious as you may think it is.

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9 hours ago, Briannaxox said:

@bigboydyo I respect and understand what you're saying honestly. But in my opinion if they aren't In the top 170 people (like in you're example), they don't deserve it. If you're a great medical applicant but like 20% of applicants are better THAN YOU at the game of admissions then you don't deserve entry regardless of how great of a doctor you'd make. Like just a random analogy, let's say you're a great track and field star. You're excellent. But not in the top 1% that gets to go to the Olympics. Then that's it. There is no way to short cut your way into the Olympics. You stay in the provincials etc. but no Olympics for you. If every decent runner could make it to the Olympics then the Olympics would suck wouldnt they lol I don't know why people assume this is a troll. It is not. Allowing ways to bypass competition undermines the integrity and legitimacy of any system (medicine is just an example). 

Sure, you're free to feel that entry into Medicine should be exclusively on a competitive basis. I just think that it has some serious consequences. There are far too many of these highly competitive top-notch GPA/EC having Med Students that have the exact personality that patients describe to me as a nightmare to deal with. Maybe if Medicine was less of an "elite profession" we wouldn't have people flaunting their superiority to others and giving the profession an image that ultimately hurts patient-physician trust. I'm not implying that you're contributing to this image because you want it to be a competitive process. I just find that this type of selection tends to bring the worst out of certain people, and thus feel favorable to make Medicine less of an "elite profession" if it means that the lay population can feel more confortable with opening up to us.

Besides, you can solve your specific problem by introducing yourself as "Dr. X, graduate from McGill/UofT/UBC/*insert any highly competitive school here*".

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On 9/23/2018 at 5:54 PM, Briannaxox said:

Your level of intellect and convoluted logic is exactly why medicine is a fairly mediocre profession. I am not sure where I mentioned that cultural, socioeconomic factors, etc. don't hold any weight. Furthermore, your post supports mine greatly, thanks! I owe you one bud. Think about what you're saying for 2 seconds. How much does a medical school in canada cost? How much does one in the carribean cost? If you want to bring up socioeconomic factors and financial stability, you should be on my side because not everyone can afford to pay their way into fake med schools can they?  There is no standardized competition and equality if individuals that have money can pay their way in, right Mr. Holistic guy? 

Sweetheart, I work 40 hours a week to pay my way through school and have worked my ass off to get where I am. I think I can talk about how socioeconomic factors come into play better than you. As for how much schools cost, it doesn't look like you've done enough research on tuition, grants and bank loan limits – maybe you should do that first before you bash a whole field of professionals who are more qualified than you. 

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On 9/24/2018 at 9:30 AM, bigboydyo said:

Sure, you're free to feel that entry into Medicine should be exclusively on a competitive basis. I just think that it has some serious consequences. There are far too many of these highly competitive top-notch GPA/EC having Med Students that have the exact personality that patients describe to me as a nightmare to deal with. Maybe if Medicine was less of an "elite profession" we wouldn't have people flaunting their superiority to others and giving the profession an image that ultimately hurts patient-physician trust. I'm not implying that you're contributing to this image because you want it to be a competitive process. I just find that this type of selection tends to bring the worst out of certain people, and thus feel favorable to make Medicine less of an "elite profession" if it means that the lay population can feel more confortable with opening up to us.

Besides, you can solve your specific problem by introducing yourself as "Dr. X, graduate from McGill/UofT/UBC/*insert any highly competitive school here*".

Agreed with this. Becoming a successful Canadian medical school applicant has evolved into a standard formula and I think attracts the wrong type of people sometimes. There should be a heavier screening process for admission imo. Maybe even going as far as personality testing, CASper for every school would be a good start.

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