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drown besk

fam med vs gen dent salary

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This is something I've been curious of, and not many of my friends were able to provide a solid response. I know that salary should not be the top priority when it comes to deciding to pursue medicine vs dentistry (or most of healthcare profession), but to be completely blunt, none of us could deny that the stable income is one of the factors that drew us into these professions.


Anyhow, from my search, dentists in Ontario make around 150k annually, working around 30~35 hours per week. Comparably, family physicians make around 250k annually, working around 40~45 hours per week. 

Does this comparison hold some truths?

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Dentists make more than FP’s in general, with larger overhead. You have to buy into a practice which is mucho $$$ but generates huge cash too. Or you associate and just give a split to the owner. 

Dentists who own their own practices take home quite a bit more than family doctors I’m afraid. 

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23 hours ago, drown besk said:

This is something I've been curious of, and not many of my friends were able to provide a solid response. I know that salary should not be the top priority when it comes to deciding to pursue medicine vs dentistry (or most of healthcare profession), but to be completely blunt, none of us could deny that the stable income is one of the factors that drew us into these professions.


Anyhow, from my search, dentists in Ontario make around 150k annually, working around 30~35 hours per week. Comparably, family physicians make around 250k annually, working around 40~45 hours per week. 

Does this comparison hold some truths?

GPs make around 360 K in Ontario, as per OMA data (it is published in OMA magazine), but not available to the general public, GP pay around 30% overhead, with the taxes, you will take home around 210 K.

For dentists, it is hard to make money during the first few years, as it is private practice (patients could shop around). Most prefer well-known senior dentists, why don't you if you have fairly good dental insurance of just socio-economically advantaged? The overhead is quite high, as the dental equipment costs more than of the GPs. In urban cities, it is quite saturated with general dentists, as most prefer to stay in urban area. 

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11 hours ago, LittleDaisy said:

GPs make around 360 K in Ontario, as per OMA data (it is published in OMA magazine), but not available to the general public, GP pay around 30% overhead, with the taxes, you will take home around 210 K.

For dentists, it is hard to make money during the first few years, as it is private practice (patients could shop around). Most prefer well-known senior dentists, why don't you if you have fairly good dental insurance of just socio-economically advantaged? The overhead is quite high, as the dental equipment costs more than of the GPs. In urban cities, it is quite saturated with general dentists, as most prefer to stay in urban area. 

 

360k - 30% is 252k minus licensing/malpractice etc.  That puts you at 245 according to your data; take home isn't 210 out of 245(pre-tax).  Do your legwork lady.............Ontario has one of the highest tax brackets; if you take 245k and don't save anything in the corporation; your take home will be $150k ish................after taxes.........

 

And I find it highly unlikely that the AVERAGE GP is billing 30k per month EVERY month..............but let's take your numbers at face value..........maybe it's just the cluster I'm in; but 30k is definitely not average in GTA.......

 

FYI - GP's average $275k in billings which is much more reasonable and AVERAGE: HERE'S THE LINK:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ontario-court-ruling-on-doctor-billing-should-spark-broader-debate-on/

 

The data LittleDaisy is talking about is for ALL PHYSICIANS in Ontario...........not GP's................

 

275 minus overhead and taxes puts you at 125-150k post-tax.............

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8 hours ago, booradley83 said:

 

360k - 30% is 252k minus licensing/malpractice etc.  That puts you at 245 according to your data; take home isn't 210 out of 245(pre-tax).  Do your legwork lady.............Ontario has one of the highest tax brackets; if you take 245k and don't save anything in the corporation; your take home will be $150k ish................after taxes.........

 

And I find it highly unlikely that the AVERAGE GP is billing 30k per month EVERY month..............but let's take your numbers at face value..........maybe it's just the cluster I'm in; but 30k is definitely not average in GTA.......

 

FYI - GP's average $275k in billings which is much more reasonable and AVERAGE: HERE'S THE LINK:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ontario-court-ruling-on-doctor-billing-should-spark-broader-debate-on/

 

The data LittleDaisy is talking about is for ALL PHYSICIANS in Ontario...........not GP's................

 

275 minus overhead and taxes puts you at 125-150k post-tax.............

I have the most recent data from OMA surveying all the GPs in Ontario that the average salary is 360 K pre-overhead, it was published in their most recent magazine, but it's not open to the general public for obvious reasons. 

For Globe and Mail data, they didn't mention which year the data was collected, it could be well before FHO was created. They also did mention that the "average" does not tell the whole story, which sounds like they know that their average might not be uptodate nor accurate

Aggregate data about physician billings is already published. We know, for example, that the average Ontario physician bills $348,000. Family doctors billings average $275,000, while those of ophthalmologists are $714,000. But averages tell only a partial story.

For average projected income of a FHO GP with 1000 rostered patients: 357,000 $ pre-overhead (again from OMA, presented to FM residents during our academic half-day, the presentator specifically told us not to share the data with the public). Once again, the government is cutting down the FHO positions as its high costs. 

For malpractice insurance with CMPA, from what I understand, is that they reimburse 70% quarterly or annually (provided if not alarmingly high lawsuits against GPs) ? The GP's CMPA insurance is not that bad compared to OBS-GYN or surgical sub specialties 

Physicians' salary  or billing still remains the myth, you do have to talk to a several physicians in practice, and read through the laborious OMA reports private to its members only.                                      

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Again; the average means nothing; the median is more relevant...............regardless; talking to dozens of GP's in the GTA; the average is nowhere near 30k monthly................anybody billing 30k and up is a superstar.......................maybe different in rural areas..........or areas outside of GTA....................... 

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41 minutes ago, booradley83 said:

Again; the average means nothing; the median is more relevant...............regardless; talking to dozens of GP's in the GTA; the average is nowhere near 30k monthly................anybody billing 30k and up is a superstar.......................maybe different in rural areas..........or areas outside of GTA....................... 

For starter, the office rental cost is so high in downtown Toronto. I don't know many new grads who want to start a practice in Toronto, unless they are geographically limited 2nd to familial reasons. I have read over your previous posts, you have to compromise somewhere. 

If money is a priority to you, then I don't think that you will be very happy in family medicine. As you are the MRP at the end of day, you have to deal with a lot of <<small>> issues, lab follows-up, Rx renewals and urgent phone calls for patients who worry you, etc. You have a lot of dedicated time that are not OHIP-billable. Perhaps you could consider other specialties with higher money earning potential, just my two cents :) 

If you just go a bit further, 1h within GTA, with a good FHO practice, you can easily bill 30 k and up as a GP. 

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On 9/24/2018 at 7:40 PM, booradley83 said:

Again; the average means nothing; the median is more relevant...............regardless; talking to dozens of GP's in the GTA; the average is nowhere near 30k monthly................anybody billing 30k and up is a superstar.......................maybe different in rural areas..........or areas outside of GTA....................... 

While the median would be a better measure, an average of all the MDs in Ontario is a lot more accurate then your anecdotal "evidence" of a bunch of people you asked in person.

For the record, I net 30k/month in AB.

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2 hours ago, bloh said:

While the median would be a better measure, an average of all the MDs in Ontario is a lot more accurate then your anecdotal "evidence" of a bunch of people you asked in person.

For the record, I net 30k/month in AB.

That's amazing; how big is your practice? How many hours and what type of payment model is it?  

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I work in a FFS model. 40-45 hours a week with an added weekend out of the city about once a month. 60% family practice, 30% walk in, 10 % LTC. Out of town work is all emerg.

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24 minutes ago, bloh said:

I work in a FFS model. 40-45 hours a week with an added weekend out of the city about once a month. 60% family practice, 30% walk in, 10 % LTC. Out of town work is all emerg.

Nice, THIS is how you make money in FFS model..............working hard, diversifying, and willing to do other things to maximize income.  Our top doc grosses roughly 40k monthly also, nets around 30k as well.............but he works roughly 5-6 days a week and sees a lot of patients............can be done, but a little tiring in a FFS model.  

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16 hours ago, bloh said:

I work in a FFS model. 40-45 hours a week with an added weekend out of the city about once a month. 60% family practice, 30% walk in, 10 % LTC. Out of town work is all emerg.

 

On 9/26/2018 at 6:03 PM, bloh said:

While the median would be a better measure, an average of all the MDs in Ontario is a lot more accurate then your anecdotal "evidence" of a bunch of people you asked in person.

For the record, I net 30k/month in AB.

woah, do you mean net after overhead AND income tax? If so, thats remarkable and very sustainable workload. How many patients do you see per day? What's your overhead?

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6 hours ago, blacktowel said:

 

woah, do you mean net after overhead AND income tax? If so, thats remarkable and very sustainable workload. How many patients do you see per day? What's your overhead?

It's NEVER after income tax..........he/she is referring to income minus overhead.................

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