Canadian student at U.S. med school with important questions!

[blueskyguy]

Hi all,

This is my first post to premed101! Thanks for any help in advance.

I am currently a second year Canadian medical student at a mid-to-low tier medical school in the U.S. I have some interests in Internal Medicine and Pediatrics, and I have some questions for you all.

Firstly, I was hoping someone could clarify how Carms works exactly, as I am more familiar with the U.S. system. Just to be clear: there are two rounds/iterations in Carms, with the first round consisting of CMGs and US students who graduate from LCME accredited schools who are also Canadian. The second round consists of those who didn't match in the first round, and IMGs. Is this correct? Did I miss anything?

Additionally, after reviewing my school's match results for Canadians of the past several years, it seems that the vast majority of Canadian students at my school interested in pursuing Internal Medicine (Or Peds) ended up matching at a U.S. residency and not a Canadian residency. But, I also reviewed the Carms data, and for 2018 for instance, it says that after the 1st and 2nd iteration of the IM match in Canada there was still 1 spot left unfilled.

I am having trouble understanding why that is. If IM in Canada is considered a "less competitive" field, with 1 spot left vacant just last year, why are most of the Canadian students at my school matching and completing their IM residency in the U.S. (with most of them on a J1 visa that sends them back to Canada afterwards anyways?). Why are these students not just going to Canada for their IM residency?

I may not be understanding how the system works exactly. For instance, if you wanted to match into IM last year, and there was one spot left vacant at the end, doesn't that mean that IF you wanted spot, no matter what, you would get it? Or I am looking at that wrong? 

TLDR: In essence, I'm not understanding why the vast majority of IM (or Peds) people at my school are doing U.S. residencies on J1 visas (which sends them back to Canada after) instead of just doing a Canadian residency. Is it possible many of them did not match? (Even if there are left over spots according to Carms?)

Any advice would be very much appreciated.

[Snowmen]

Programs don't have to rank every student. If none of the students they ranked are available, the spot gets left empty. Therefore, there can be more applicants than spots but spots could still be left empty if some programs are picky.

[ploughboy]

Also check the timing of the matches.  Does the US match still run first?   That will cause a lot of applicants to be withdrawn from CaRMS, assuming they participated in both matches (which is the strategically smart thing to do).

[GrouchoMarx]

The usa match runs second 

[ploughboy]

On 10/4/2018 at 8:52 PM, GrouchoMarx said:

The usa match runs second 

I stand corrected. 

Never mind, then.

[GrouchoMarx]

1 hour ago, ploughboy said:

I stand corrected. 

Never mind, then.

The bastards that run carms make you choose. Fuck them tbh

[medigeek]

On 10/6/2018 at 12:37 AM, GrouchoMarx said:

The bastards that run carms make you choose. Fuck them tbh

What do you mean? You go for Carms, if you miss.. USA is back up. 

[psychiatry2017]

On 10/1/2018 at 4:19 PM, blueskyguy said:

Hi all,

This is my first post to premed101! Thanks for any help in advance.

I am currently a second year Canadian medical student at a mid-to-low tier medical school in the U.S. I have some interests in Internal Medicine and Pediatrics, and I have some questions for you all.

Firstly, I was hoping someone could clarify how Carms works exactly, as I am more familiar with the U.S. system. Just to be clear: there are two rounds/iterations in Carms, with the first round consisting of CMGs and US students who graduate from LCME accredited schools who are also Canadian. The second round consists of those who didn't match in the first round, and IMGs. Is this correct? Did I miss anything?

Additionally, after reviewing my school's match results for Canadians of the past several years, it seems that the vast majority of Canadian students at my school interested in pursuing Internal Medicine (Or Peds) ended up matching at a U.S. residency and not a Canadian residency. But, I also reviewed the Carms data, and for 2018 for instance, it says that after the 1st and 2nd iteration of the IM match in Canada there was still 1 spot left unfilled.

I am having trouble understanding why that is. If IM in Canada is considered a "less competitive" field, with 1 spot left vacant just last year, why are most of the Canadian students at my school matching and completing their IM residency in the U.S. (with most of them on a J1 visa that sends them back to Canada afterwards anyways?). Why are these students not just going to Canada for their IM residency?

I may not be understanding how the system works exactly. For instance, if you wanted to match into IM last year, and there was one spot left vacant at the end, doesn't that mean that IF you wanted spot, no matter what, you would get it? Or I am looking at that wrong? 

TLDR: In essence, I'm not understanding why the vast majority of IM (or Peds) people at my school are doing U.S. residencies on J1 visas (which sends them back to Canada after) instead of just doing a Canadian residency. Is it possible many of them did not match? (Even if there are left over spots according to Carms?)

Any advice would be very much appreciated.

I think that Canadian medical schools favour Canadiam medical students for residency positions. However, as a US-trained medical student, you get to participate in first iteration of CaRMS and are considered for CMG positions (which IMGs don't have access to).

If you want to do internal medicine in Canada, I would suggest doing electives in school that you are interested in and get LORs.

As mentioned above, programs are not obliged to rank all applicants, they can leave the position open for second iteration if they haven't found a perfect fit for them.

I think that it is much easier for you to match to IM or PEDs in U.S, given that there are more residency spots in U.S. You could always come back to Canada after your residency in U.S and get your IM or PEDs re-certified (it could get tricky, as GIM Is a 3 year program in U.S, whereas GIM is at least 4-5 year in Canada). 

[Edict]

On 10/7/2018 at 8:34 PM, medigeek said:

What do you mean? You go for Carms, if you miss.. USA is back up. 

He means for us CMGs we get screwed. 

[excelspreadsheet]

Would you mind elaborating? Couldn't we apply to Canadian match first and then if we don't match have the US as a back up as it runs after? Could we choose say internal med first round and not back up with anything. Then apply internal for NRMP and if we still don't match, and then have our back ups in the CARMS round 2? Or does CARMS round 2 occur in before NRMP as well?

Feb 26th, 2019 is apparently CARMS round 1 match day.

(Couldn't find a date for 2nd round)

March 15th, 2019 is NRMP match.

 

[dumbebell]

1 hour ago, excelspreadsheet said:

Would you mind elaborating? Couldn't we apply to Canadian match first and then if we don't match have the US as a back up as it runs after? Could we choose say internal med first round and not back up with anything. Then apply internal for NRMP and if we still don't match, and then have our back ups in the CARMS round 2? Or does CARMS round 2 occur in before NRMP as well?

Feb 26th, 2019 is apparently CARMS round 1 match day.

(Couldn't find a date for 2nd round)

March 15th, 2019 is NRMP match.

 

Second iteration for CARMS occurs after NRMP match!

"Match results for the second iteration of the 2019 is 10 April 2019 at 12:00 (noon) ET"

 

[JohnGrisham]

8 hours ago, excelspreadsheet said:

Would you mind elaborating? Couldn't we apply to Canadian match first and then if we don't match have the US as a back up as it runs after? Could we choose say internal med first round and not back up with anything. Then apply internal for NRMP and if we still don't match, and then have our back ups in the CARMS round 2? Or does CARMS round 2 occur in before NRMP as well?

Feb 26th, 2019 is apparently CARMS round 1 match day.

(Couldn't find a date for 2nd round)

March 15th, 2019 is NRMP match.

 

Yes you can do r1 carms and then NRMP. I believe r2 carma happens after nrmp, but theres usually nothing good in that anyways so its fine forgoing that for NRMP.

The way its setup works great for CMGS who want to back.up with the US. Just have to actually take USMLEs.

[dumbebell]

On 10/1/2018 at 2:19 PM, blueskyguy said:

Hi all,

This is my first post to premed101! Thanks for any help in advance.

I am currently a second year Canadian medical student at a mid-to-low tier medical school in the U.S. I have some interests in Internal Medicine and Pediatrics, and I have some questions for you all.

Firstly, I was hoping someone could clarify how Carms works exactly, as I am more familiar with the U.S. system. Just to be clear: there are two rounds/iterations in Carms, with the first round consisting of CMGs and US students who graduate from LCME accredited schools who are also Canadian. The second round consists of those who didn't match in the first round, and IMGs. Is this correct? Did I miss anything?

Additionally, after reviewing my school's match results for Canadians of the past several years, it seems that the vast majority of Canadian students at my school interested in pursuing Internal Medicine (Or Peds) ended up matching at a U.S. residency and not a Canadian residency. But, I also reviewed the Carms data, and for 2018 for instance, it says that after the 1st and 2nd iteration of the IM match in Canada there was still 1 spot left unfilled.

I am having trouble understanding why that is. If IM in Canada is considered a "less competitive" field, with 1 spot left vacant just last year, why are most of the Canadian students at my school matching and completing their IM residency in the U.S. (with most of them on a J1 visa that sends them back to Canada afterwards anyways?). Why are these students not just going to Canada for their IM residency?

I may not be understanding how the system works exactly. For instance, if you wanted to match into IM last year, and there was one spot left vacant at the end, doesn't that mean that IF you wanted spot, no matter what, you would get it? Or I am looking at that wrong? 

TLDR: In essence, I'm not understanding why the vast majority of IM (or Peds) people at my school are doing U.S. residencies on J1 visas (which sends them back to Canada after) instead of just doing a Canadian residency. Is it possible many of them did not match? (Even if there are left over spots according to Carms?)

Any advice would be very much appreciated.

I guess we would never truly know but in addition to what others say, CARMS put DO under UDMG category for data purposes and you may know that DO are considered IMG so that alone does skew the data, reported on CARMS. Unfortunately, CARMS does not put data separately for DO and MD.

EDIT: here is the email