GP hospitalist job market

[psychiatry2017]

Hi all,

   I wonder if anyone has any information on the working conditions, job market and salary for GP hospitalist in Ontario? If anyone has any information or insight, please feel free to reply below or PM me  Would extra year of training be required to work in a community hospital in suburbia or semi-rural? 

   I wonder how much GP hospitalist have to pay as overhead, and the take home post-tax & overhead income? As FHO GPs make a decent living,  I wonder if GP hospitalists are happy with their working conditions and pay given frequent calls? Thank you for your help

[psychiatry2017]

BUMP to this thread  

[JohnGrisham]

The GP hospitalists I know are hourly paid with no overhead. 130-200$/hr depending on location and shift timing. They like it since its slightly more less benign pathology than the office setting and no overhead.

[psychiatry2017]

Anyone billing FFS as GP hospitalist? The billing codes for GIM and FP-hospitalists for new consults are relatively the same: 220 vs 260 for comprehensive consult. I wonder if hourly rate is more the norm since a lot of patients have social issues, and their discharge gets prolonged? 

What are the working hours and job market like? Thanks a lot guys

[freewheeler]

From what I've heard GP hospitalists are paid ~$1200 in a day w/out overhead. This is not FFS as far as I am aware. Try perusing the various different physician job posting sites for an idea of what the posted working hours or job availability may be like. Hopefully some other members with personal experience can provide you further insight as well.

[Aconitase]

GPS do bill FFS with stipend. Stipend is 400 weekdays and 500 weekends plus billing’s. Can make about 1500-2000 per day if have 20+ pts

[IMislove]

1 hour ago, Aconitase said:

GPS do bill FFS with stipend. Stipend is 400 weekdays and 500 weekends plus billing’s. Can make about 1500-2000 per day if have 20+ pts

Damnnnnn. Would you say then, that if you wanted the taste of IM but not the huge complexity of acute pt's and length of training but still have a pretty good wage, be a GP hospitalist? Forgive my ignorance in the matter, MS1 lol.

[Aconitase]

13 hours ago, IMislove said:

Damnnnnn. Would you say then, that if you wanted the taste of IM but not the huge complexity of acute pt's and length of training but still have a pretty good wage, be a GP hospitalist? Forgive my ignorance in the matter, MS1 lol.

Yes and no. A large problem especially in the GTA is a lack of jobs. Sub specialists are unable to find work (ie ICU and nephrology) so they often do GIM work. More and more people are also opting for GIM since they know subspecialists have to hard to find work. 

 

So, there are more people than ever looking for GIM work so it’s bleeding over into more MRP work from just doing straight ER shifts. As such, most hospitals  hiring hospitalists will opt for a GIM over a GP all other things being equal. 

 

So - yes it’s a great way to make a salary with no overheard and do in patient work without night call etc. However it will be harder and harder to find work as the GIMs start adapting this job into their portfolio more so going forward 

[brady23]

5 hours ago, Aconitase said:

Yes and no. A large problem especially in the GTA is a lack of jobs. Sub specialists are unable to find work (ie ICU and nephrology) so they often do GIM work. More and more people are also opting for GIM since they know subspecialists have to hard to find work. 

 

So, there are more people than ever looking for GIM work so it’s bleeding over into more MRP work from just doing straight ER shifts. As such, most hospitals  hiring hospitalists will opt for a GIM over a GP all other things being equal. 

 

So - yes it’s a great way to make a salary with no overheard and do in patient work without night call etc. However it will be harder and harder to find work as the GIMs start adapting this job into their portfolio more so going forward 

What's the benefit of doing GIM for 5 years then vs. subspecializing, if a nephrologist can still do GIM work?

Even if it takes several several years to find a nephrology job, they can still practice GIM like a regular GIM physician?

[LittleDaisy]

8 hours ago, Aconitase said:

Yes and no. A large problem especially in the GTA is a lack of jobs. Sub specialists are unable to find work (ie ICU and nephrology) so they often do GIM work. More and more people are also opting for GIM since they know subspecialists have to hard to find work. 

 

So, there are more people than ever looking for GIM work so it’s bleeding over into more MRP work from just doing straight ER shifts. As such, most hospitals  hiring hospitalists will opt for a GIM over a GP all other things being equal. 

 

So - yes it’s a great way to make a salary with no overheard and do in patient work without night call etc. However it will be harder and harder to find work as the GIMs start adapting this job into their portfolio more so going forward 

Hey I totally agree with you. A lot of community hospitals in GTA or surrouding have started to ask new grads to go for extra training in hospital medicine. Community GP hospitalists all do night calls, ER admissions and cover for their patients ( home call)--> they get call stipends for this. In community hospitals where GPs are hosptalists, the GIM act as consultants or take care of ICU.

I think that some smaller hospitals (rural or semi-urban) would prefer GP hospitalists as they could pick up ER shifts, deliver babies; also GP hospitalists are paid less than GIM hospitalists for the same amount of work they do (billing codes are significantly different). 

There are still a few community hospitals in GTA that hire majorly GP hospitalists. 

[ACHQ]

2 hours ago, brady23 said:

What's the benefit of doing GIM for 5 years then vs. subspecializing, if a nephrologist can still do GIM work?

Even if it takes several several years to find a nephrology job, they can still practice GIM like a regular GIM physician?

technically yes.

People who chose to sub-specialize typically don't want to do GIM work, or are too busy with their sub-specialty to take on GIM work.

Many will take on ER-call shifts because it pays $$$. Some (but less so) will also do MRP work because it can also pay decently. Most who do this don't do too much because they are busy with a sub-fellowship, or clinical associate positions, or other subspecialty locums etc.... but this helps pay the bills

[ACHQ]

3 minutes ago, LittleDaisy said:

Hey I totally agree with you. A lot of community hospitals in GTA or surrouding have started to ask new grads to go for extra training in hospital medicine. Community GP hospitalists all do night calls, ER admissions and cover for their patients ( home call)--> they get call stipends for this. In community hospitals where GPs are hosptalists, the GIM act as consultants or take care of ICU. 

I think that some smaller hospitals (rural or semi-urban) would prefer GP hospitalists as they could pick up ER shifts, deliver babies; also GP hospitalists are paid less than GIM hospitalists for the same amount of work they do (billing codes are significantly different). 

There are still a few community hospitals in GTA that hire majorly GP hospitalists. 

Most of the large GTA hospitals have ER-call/overnight coverage by a GIM/sub-specialists. That's because they are "the doctor" in the hospital and handle admissions to ICU, code blues, seeing deteriorating patients on the floor etc...

[LittleDaisy]

Just now, ACHQ said:

Most of the large GTA hospitals have ER-call/overnight coverage by a GIM/sub-specialists. That's because they are "the doctor" in the hospital and handle admissions to ICU, code blues, seeing deteriorating patients on the floor etc...

Sorry I was referring to GTA surrounding suburbia hospitals (Barrie, Vaughan, etc)

The overnight GIM calls pay pretty well, I heard that you could make easily 3000 k- 5000 K if you are efficient with overnight consults. I know a few people who choose to do locum for overnight GIM calls and make a decent living!

Being a MRP as hospitalist (either GIM or FM) is very tiring, and involves a lot of responsibility with significant amount of paperwork, family meeting, inter-professional rounds, the billing codes decrease significantly after admissions and even less so for re-assessments for patients admitted for longer periods of time. 

[Aconitase]

8 hours ago, booradley83 said:

Here you go again with ridiculous numbers again!  3-5k is a HUGE variation..........................that's like saying family doctors can make $200-500k in income...........................................well DUH!!!!!!!

 

and again; you mentioned the word 'easily'..................are you a troll on these forums?

He’s being very fair and accurate. 

 

The way  billing works is dependant on how many consults you get. 

 

Typical ER shifts run from either 8-8 or 6-8 or 12-8 depending on hospital. You usually get about 12-18 consults on a shift. Let’s say 15 on average. The lay about 270-300 each depending on the time (before or after midnight). That’s about 3K right there. 

 

Then add codes and reassements of patients on the ward (remember the midnight Codes are 100 dollars per person seen) then you see why it can escalate To 5k. 

 

Finally most shifts have a stipend of pend of a few hundred dollars as well. 

 

The reason there is a huge variation is the variable number of consults and ward calls. I would say the average shift is probably 3-3500k and can push up to as high as 5k in the busy GTA 

[LittleDaisy]

15 hours ago, Aconitase said:

He’s being very fair and accurate. 

 

The way  billing works is dependant on how many consults you get. 

 

Typical ER shifts run from either 8-8 or 6-8 or 12-8 depending on hospital. You usually get about 12-18 consults on a shift. Let’s say 15 on average. The lay about 270-300 each depending on the time (before or after midnight). That’s about 3K right there. 

 

Then add codes and reassements of patients on the ward (remember the midnight Codes are 100 dollars per person seen) then you see why it can escalate To 5k. 

 

Finally most shifts have a stipend of pend of a few hundred dollars as well. 

 

The reason there is a huge variation is the variable number of consults and ward calls. I would say the average shift is probably 3-3500k and can push up to as high as 5k in the busy GTA 

Thanks for backing me up, much appreciated @Aconitase

To @booradley83, I am not a troll. I am a senior resident soon to become a staff physician. I know that this an online forum, but I think that you should demonstrate some sort of respect for your fellow colleagues. If you want to share where you are at your medical training,  please feel free! Or if you have any questions, just feel free to ask other members. 

The 3000-5000K per night shift is straight numbers that I heard from my fellow colleagues who are doing locum night shifts in ER, also numbers heard from academic internists.It really depends on how many consults you get from ED, and how many ICU admissions you are doing, there is no absolute certainty in medicine. 

Your previous posts are very much focused on how much money approximately specialists make vs GPs, I was trying to help you out and providing you with real life numbers. The OMA would not publicize physicians' earning for our own benefit, the physicians' earning will continue to become a taboo subject as we rarely talk about it in public. 

[booradley83]

So how is 3-5k relevant to this thread?  I'm an actual attending practicing outpatient FP in the GTA; you are a resident.  When you post numbers, that's like me saying that I bill easily 2000-3000k on the weekend.  If I see 50-80 patients on the weekend, that's my billing.  IS THAT IN ANY WAY RELEVANT TO AN OUTPATIENT FP PRACTICE?

 

Why don't you give an idea as to how an average hospitalist does in the GTA or whatever area you are referencing; with average numbers for the month/year with the number of shifts?

[Aconitase]

2 minutes ago, booradley83 said:

So how is 3-5k relevant to this thread?  I'm an actual attending practicing outpatient FP in the GTA; you are a resident.  When you post numbers, that's like me saying that I bill easily 2000-3000k on the weekend.  If I see 50-80 patients on the weekend, that's my billing.  IS THAT IN ANY WAY RELEVANT TO AN OUTPATIENT FP PRACTICE?

 

Why don't you give an idea as to how an average hospitalist does in the GTA or whatever area you are referencing; with average numbers for the month/year with the number of shifts?

I don’t get your point. 

 

@LittleDaisy isn’t talking about GP hospitalists. The referenced 3-5k per night is for a GIM doing an ER night call shift. That is not actually the AVERAGE of what a GIM shift pays. Not some crazy shift.  What numbers would you rather we discuss if it’s not the average? Like I said most are 3-3500 and some are 5k+. 

 

Why are you being so rude?

 

as for GP hospitalists I mentioned about about 1500-2000 a day depending on patient load. Slightly more on weekends. Most work 20-40 weeks a year depending on lifestyle etc 

[booradley83]

And on top of that, don’t ever mention the word ‘easily’ as a resident with 0 real world experience.  What is ‘easily?’ 

[booradley83]

Just now, Aconitase said:

I don’t get your point. 

 

@LittleDaisy isn’t talking about GP hospitalists. The referenced 3-5k per night is for a GIM doing an ER night call shift. That is not actually the AVERAGE of what a GIM shift pays. Not some crazy shift.  What numbers would you rather we discuss if it’s not the average? Like I said most are 3-3500 and some are 5k+. 

 

Why are you being so rude?

 

as for GP hospitalists I mentioned about about 1500-2000 a day depending on patient load. Slightly more on weekends. Most work 20-40 weeks a year depending on lifestyle etc 

 

 

 

The the numbers here are reasonable.  I’m ‘rude’ because people who are residents shouldn’t be talking and spewing numbers without real world knowledge.

[booradley83]

The name of this thread is GP HOSPITALISTS!  

[blacktowel]

33 minutes ago, booradley83 said:

 

 

 

The the numbers here are reasonable.  I’m ‘rude’ because people who are residents shouldn’t be talking and spewing numbers without real world knowledge.

So residents can't reference the ranges they hasve heard from multiple staff? Are residents disallowed from this conversation? I agree that referencing where the numbers come from is a good idea. Plus the word "easily" implies that given the number of consults they see (undoubtedly hard) the return they see is easily 3-5k. It doesnt imply its easy to make that. From an outsider's perspective you seem upset which doesn't help further the conversation. Your points would be better taken if stated with respect.

[LittleDaisy]

18 hours ago, booradley83 said:

So how is 3-5k relevant to this thread?  I'm an actual attending practicing outpatient FP in the GTA; you are a resident.  When you post numbers, that's like me saying that I bill easily 2000-3000k on the weekend.  If I see 50-80 patients on the weekend, that's my billing.  IS THAT IN ANY WAY RELEVANT TO AN OUTPATIENT FP PRACTICE?

 

Why don't you give an idea as to how an average hospitalist does in the GTA or whatever area you are referencing; with average numbers for the month/year with the number of shifts?

As mentioned by @Aconitase, I was referring to GIM doing ER night consults in busy GTA hospitals, you get 30% overnight premiums, and 100$ for reassessment past midnight. 

If "easily" upsets you, by all means, I sincerely apologize. 

I would be actually interested to hear from @booradley83 how much does a GP hospitalist in GTA make, given you have much more life experience? thanks! 

 

[booradley83]

4 hours ago, LittleDaisy said:

As mentioned by @Aconitase, I was referring to GIM doing ER night consults in busy GTA hospitals, you get 30% overnight premiums, and 100$ for reassessment past midnight. 

If "easily" upsets you, by all means, I sincerely apologize. 

I would be actually interested to hear from @booradley83 how much does a GP hospitalist in GTA make, given you have much more life experience? thanks! 

 

 

On average $1200-1500 per shift after overhead which is minimal/zero.  They are a dying breed though ......

[LittleDaisy]

20 hours ago, booradley83 said:

 

On average $1200-1500 per shift after overhead which is minimal/zero.  They are a dying breed though ......

How about GP in FHO & FHT after overhead & tax with roster of > 1000 patients and full-time? thanks!