A Cautionary Tale: 7 years as a premed gunner with an A average & Why I chose Money over medicine

[canucks_14]

Okay so I think the people that used to read my posts/post with are probably knee deep in clerkships/residencies and beyond by now but I just wanted to share my story and put it on the internet forever in the off chance that it helps someone accomplish their goals, and maybe particularly help someone make some key life decisions. For the record I ended up with an ultra competitive application last year that I would not have believed could be possible.  

So for quite a long time...I was absolutely obsessed and determined to get into medicine...probably 6-7 years. It actually became a defining feature of who I was to others I knew socially. But I could make a strong case that thinking that medicine was right for me for so long was one of the worst decisions of my life and kind of a waste of 6ish years. I was absolutely sure that I wanted nothing more than to go to med school become a doc then do some more training (a lot) and work to get paid to help people get treated for illnesses. But this alludes to the problem. I wanted to get paid more than anything. I was seriously lying to myself that I could get by with the career satisfaction and remuneration of a physician (including costs for training and low resident salaries). I naively scoffed at other accounts of those older than me that there are problems with this path...but I thought I wouldn’t be like that. I mean how happy would I be when the moment I finish that MCAT and that same summer night when I’m done the biggest hurdle in getting accepted...and how happy would I actually be when I get that acceptance? Speaking of which, during one of my volunteering activities I met a woman who was one out of the 3 women who was in the inaugural class of med school at UBC. She was so wonderful when she struck up a conversation with me when I had shared with the group that I was a bio major. But she said something absolutely horrifying to me...and before I say what it was let me say that she had a great career as a specialist working with a desirable population and her husband was a great himself in that he had that ultra specialized big city position in the US and later on became dean of a medical school and was instrumental in its development. Definitely fulfilling careers right? And they were in love! The horrifying thing she told me was that the day she got accepted into medical school was the best day of her life. That absolutely scared me to death that I was making a big mistake. Now before you construe that she meant that it was the beginning of everything and the birth of something beautiful...it was clear from our conversation that that’s not what she meant...she was very clearly saying...I remember being that age...it was good...it’s all downhill from there kid. So that was pretty unsettling but of course I was still dismissive because this was my dream...my biggest dream...I don’t want an anticlamtic let down of my life just as how she described hers and her husbands...her husband was in the Canadian med hall of fame for goodness sakes...it was everything success in med is supposed to be from a gunners standpoint haha. 

Anyways where I’m going with this is...I think there was a perfect storm of factors in my life that lead me to believe a career in medicine was the best for me. Those were:

-high science marks coupled with personal satisfaction of course completions in these areas

-family wanted me to be successful

-TV studios/positive real life anecdotes of income and other factors from people who aren’t doctors 

-thought that cute smart girls were in higher proportions in medicine haha so emabrsssig to admit! (By this logic I probably should have just kept my hotel restaurant server/busboy job) 

-not knowing anything real or tangible (ie not internet “stats” or other online readings about other careers) about any careers other than healthcare  ——-thinking that medicine was actually a high paying career in that it will get you rich. 

-ingrained with academic success being a top priority from peers/the world at large since the age of 6 

-thought that the work of a physician was more important than almost all other lines of work...

-it’s a respected profession

-probably other more typical reasons 

And so there are 4 main things that ultimately made me realize to decide against a medical career. 

1)People are going to need medicine less and less.

people are getting to be so healthy nowadays. The move towards exercise and healthy diet is going to extend lives and prevent disease to such a great effect that I think as someone in your 20s medicine is kind of a bad spot to be in....physician compensation has been on a strong and steady decline since the mid 80s...yeah that’s a decline when inflation has obviously gone up a lot in the same time frame. So from an economic perspective the declines should not be this big but again the declines in patients are very real. I was super interested in CV surg so I assume it’s not true for all specialties but I mean I personally don’t think there’s many diseases that can’t be fended off with a life of exercise and plants to prevent it from ever happening. Obviously some disease will happen in reality but you get the point...the healthier people are...the lower the compensation...and it’s obvious people are healthier than ever. I mean for the young people I know seeing a doctor is pretty irrelevant. It serves no purpose. A doctor is a non issue to the vast majority of young people. It’s just not something people generally think about. Obv there are exceptions but for a lot of healthy people they don’t ever need to see a doctor....kind of a thought that ruins the whole super important work theme. Obv it is for the people who need it. But just look at philanthropy. You heard it hear im aggressively calling for disease irradication in the decades to come. There will a ton of prevent through healthy habits and then philanthropy will push towards cures for diseases. 

 

2) I don’t have an interest in treating old people all day. 

Assume that my premise in point 1 evolves so that the disease that does occur generally happens more often in older people (this is already true obviously but just assuming it becomes more pronounced in an increasingly adherent in being healthy population). Ok so now some specialities just have tons of old people that make up the patient population. I don’t know why but I’d rather hang out and work with young people who are my peers rather than spending 20 years after med school studying and training just to hang out exclusively with old people for the few years of my shortned career. Correct me if I’m wrong but it’s gotta be like 10x more old people in a hospital than young people. 

 

3) the ultimate yomen’s work is in bench research, not in being an MD.

I think this is so overlooked. Being the gunner that I am little did I know that research is much more ambitious than an MD clinical route. So many laypeople see doctors as the heros fighting disease....in reality I have a strong argument that I would consider actually a truth in that, curing all diseases or disease prevention is infinitely better than treating them after the fact - any way you slice it. And the level of understanding that a good scientist has is astounding...an MD doing clinical just doesn’t have that kind of time to know the science to that same level. In effect a doctor is just a caretaker rather than a crusader against disease. In my last year of considering medicine I was lured to thinking I could do a PhD/MD at a top research school. I ultimately decided against research as well because of .....

 

4) Money!!!

So for some reason I’ve said on this forum that I would be a surgeon for free if my basic living costs can be covered so like maybe 40k a year. No idea how I thought this. But I think when you’ve put that many hours into something in a short period of time and your yet to achieve any real success or any ultimate accomplishment your bias gets you to lie to yourself in a non objective way. I’ve actually always loved money. Money is equal to independence pure and simple. When you have money no one can control you and only you control yourself. And I knew this, and even began searching for high paid options in medicine that would allow me to live the lifestyle I want. I found out that basically no academic neurosurgeons in the US make under a million a year for a variety of reasons (any call they do is not calculated in their posted salaries, it is totally excluded. And for a neurosurgeon this can be 200-300 extra a year. And then also the different aspects of their position will not be included. For example administrative compensation as a manager chief whatever may be filed under something else and research may fall under some other division of employment as well. So basically the number you see posted on a hospitals employee list of salaries is one out of 4 potential income streams that they can make. At least for the US. But anyways I thought ok that’s pretty good I can try to do really well and be committed to medicine and make a million a year. But then I realized this is shortchanging the lifestyle I want. My current career allows me to attempt to make 60x this figure at the peak of the industry in this country so yes 60 million and actually much much more than that is also possible. This is just something important to me. I want to make as much money as possible because I think that’s cool. Some people clearly hate money and all that western democratic capitalism has provided us. I am not one of these people. I’m sure these people got the set of CARS questions wrong that has to do with topics on capitalism, the constitution etc. I for one however aced those parts of the CARS practice tests. I have an ultimate appreciation for the economic system and the transformative change associated with wealth. Money motivates me more than anything else. As soon San I started traveling across the states...forget about it. No way am I hanging out at a hospital everyday. Plus I’m big into real estate and business so I want to start several companies spread out through different industries and also own some trophy properties on the water in some great cities. Waterfront properties in the cities I’m looking at can’t be afforded by a plastic surgeon or any doctor in the world (except Patrick Soon b/c he’s a billionaire from his business ventures). But that’s the point. The things I want to accomplish in life are reserved for billionaires and people close to it. So I’d rather be honest with myself and try to achieve that rather than trying to change who I am for a profession I don’t want.

An American perspective is that the reason you choose med is irrelevent, including if money is the motivation. But if you are at all interested in making money, such to the point that you’d think you’d definitely need more than 350k a year then you should absolutely pursue other avenues. Income is unlimited in other areas. Do that if that’s what you care about. I wholeheartedly belive money should not be a part of your decision to be a doctor. In my analysis it makes for bad doctors. 

So I just thought I’d go on record to say that I had probably the most competitive unconventional application you’ve ever seen. Grades could be a lot higher and no MCAT so that’s unknown but could make a strong case based on ECs accomplishments alone. 

 

-I started a business that earned 200k in retained earnings a year at 23...on a part time basis, 

-I could run a 4 minute mile and was offered a spot on the UBC track team and was in talks with world renowned international Olympic coaches. Definitely could have ran at close to an Olympic level With some more training. World record used to be 4 mins in the 50s when systemic racism was prevalent ha ha 

-I got my grades up with some serious GPA repair...I failed a ton of classes my first two years but still ended up with an A average after a large amount of credits. It’s actually an A- average I believe which is the low side but pretty proud of it and don’t think it’s a hindersnce for a lot of schools. 

-I got 6 months of extensive research experience in bench work with a heavy hitting Ivy League biochemist and was urged to start writing review articles in neuroscience. and was also offered a somewhat permanent but definitely long term research position with another acclaimed tenured scientist at his lab at an Ivy League institution.

The reason I’m sharing this is not only to make myself feel good (ha ha) but also to show people what is possible in bouncing back from adversity. How many people fail a semester or a class or two and figure that’s the end of any dream they have. had you told me I had done all these things and have them on paper by 25 I would’ve said that’s insanity. But above all else, I had a vision for myself. And I think in particular I have a talent for having incredible vision but I think it’s something that others can try to cultivate. Even if you’re in 1st year and you’re not getting the grades you want...you can cultivate a future for yourself where you are successful. As much as I regret learning about valence electrons for 2 years of my life I belive I received an excellent education because of coursework and well rounded experiences. Exactly what the idea of post secondary education is supposed to cultivate. So in a lot of ways I set out to accomplish everything I was looking for in my quarter life, less an MCAT score. But you get the point. So even if you failed two semesters maybe don’t move back home and wait tables again at your old job and see where it goes...you can try to have persistence and accomplish everything you set out to accomplish originally (as long as you can take care of your health while doing it) Overcoming great odds to achieve success will make you a better person. I went from academic probation to an Ivy League research career with the presumption of grad school in basic science at said Ivy League school. Even though I won’t need to know a single thing from college now for any reason becuse im not a scientist. But hey who knows it might’ve made me better not just on paper but in practice. (Ironic that practice is the last word on this thought).

If anyone is ever looking for tips to be successful in college and in particular bounce back from failed grades then DM me and I’d be happy to talk to you to try to help or chat about anything else. What might save a lot of time in explaining is that everyone looking for a study strategy should be doing Cornell Notes. Learning researchers say this is the most effective way to learn and retain information. Also if you have the time you can make a habit of going to the library for some hours. Just you and your course content it’s up to you to learn it and not get distracted. I always liked the library environment and what a great feeling getting out having learned hundreds of things in a few hours before an exam....I always thought after doing some university exams how funny the expression “you learn something new everyday” is. Before an exam I’d easily learn hundreds of things in a day so felt that quote to be a little inadequate now ha ha. 

Anyways until next time PM101. Good luck in whatever you choose! You can do it!

 

[JohnGrisham]

47 minutes ago, canucks_14 said:

So I just thought I’d go on record to say that I had probably the most competitive unconventional application you’ve ever seen. Grades could be a lot higher and no MCAT so that’s unknown but could make a strong case based on ECs accomplishments alone. 

  

[Baljinderthecrow]

I found your post to be very interesting, and respect your opinions. That being said, I disagree with some of the things you said. I don't see medicine as a "dying" career. Also, what are you doing now? Are you running your own business, still in school, or are you a researcher? And where do you see yourself in the next 5-10 years?

[IMislove]

Especially with our ever increasing aging population, increasing morbidity and mortality that follow with it. And mental illness being such a big thing in young people. Medicine is definitely not in decline. But I see what you are trying to do,  especially in being proud of yourself even if Medicine isn’t for you. That’s perfectly okay, getting medicine shouldn’t be seen as a success or failure if you don’t. Just one of many paths to go. Best of luck in your path.

[Aconitase]

If you goal for medicine was to be Uber rich then yes it was totally misguided. No top doctor will ever equal what an elite level finance or business or lawyer can make. 

 

However the average doctor will likely be similar to the average finance person or business owner or lawyer.

 

if you specialize you can likely break 500k a year if you work hard. It’s very hard to break a million and almost unheard of to break 2 million. So if your goal is to make in the millions then I think you have chosen correctly 

[GH0ST]

 @canucks_14While I can respect your opinion I have to dispel a misconception you spread here that has the potential to be and detrimental to future community health. 

3 hours ago, canucks_14 said:

1)People are going to need medicine less and less.

This point does not accurately reflect the common overlaps between medicine, public health, and community health. When we think of health care, it is easy to immediately think of treatment as the primary goal. On the spectrum of health care however involves prevention (which encompasses an understanding of risk factors, epidemiology of disease, and their consequences), treatment (which also includes preventing further complications for patients with an illness), and end-of-life care.

In your example, you discussed your interest in being a CV surgeon. Setting aside the obvious that there's many other specialties to consider, you have missed the point that prevention in health care done by physicians exist also in medical care. If a patient were to have diabetes, it's important to help manage their condition to prevent future complications. For those without diabetes but does have risk factors, it's important for a physician to stratify and begin the necessary screening process so that the condition can be prevented to the highest probability. The work of a physician goes so far beyond diagnosing someone who is unwell and giving them treatment. I would say one of the best things I've gained from my experience so far is that I can play a role along the entire spectrum of health (a term which is difficult to define in itself.)

In your example, you discussed how people are "getting so healthy nowadays." From the outside perspective it may appear that way. We have numerous vaccinations available to protect us against numerous infectious diseases. We have systems in place to help us with respect to environmental health. We have an infrastructure in place that supports those who need medical care and can receive it (relatively) free of charge. Canada (along with numerous countries) have benefited from this significantly and that's something that as a country we should be proud of. 

Let me ask you then... how do you think we've got to this point? You've mentioned the importance of research, which I definitely agree with and fully support. Who is the one that helps administer the treatments? Who is out there investigating the cause of illness? Who keeps the hospitals running as physicians continue to retire and the next generation of physicians take up the mantle? As someone who is invested in public health and preventative medicine (a specialty that I'm considering for CaRMS), I like to joke that when public health and health care is working, people have the luxury of saying "there's no problem." We see this already with decreasing vaccination trends as people have forgotten the terrors of the diseases that we vaccinate against. Yet, to keep the system going, we need thousands of people (including physicians) to keep the system running and address a shift in the obstacles that face our health system and new contemporary issues that will arise. 

Ex. We may need more psychiatrists and people in the mental health system as cannabis use increases (among many other things we may need....)

Ex. We always need physicians (rural or urban) to help address the determinants of health among First Nations communities 

Ex. We will need physicians still to help in addressing the difficulties of addictions medicine and management 

Ex. We will need physicians to address the top non-communicable diseases that are still rampant in Canada (Cardiovascular disease, obesity, diabetes, cancers), all of which has increased in their disease burden as a consequence to the changing demographic of our society (higher average age, less decreased acute conditions causing immediate death, etc)

Ex. There's still a shortage of family physicians throughout the country despite the apparent "health" our society suggests. 

Ex. We need physicians for involvement in occupational injuries and prevention (ex. family physicians, occupational medicine physicians, orthopedic surgeons, physiatrists, etc) 

Ex. We will need physicians to be involved in the aging population and increasing burden in geriatrics (which I understand is something you don't want to do and that's fine)

Ex. We will need physicians that wish to play a bigger role in the continued preservation and improvement to our health and further develop the foundations of health care and address certain causes of disease (specifically, public health physicians/medical officers of health) 

As you can see, despite your assertion there's still so much work to be done for physicians. Despite how apparently healthy our community is, the shifts in disease burden and demographics mean that new problems will arise and we have a responsibility to do our part in addressing these difficult issues. I won't speak specifically about compensation/pay as I find people have their own preferences for this but as a whole... physicians in general (regardless of what they do) don't live in a box down the street. There's still so much work to be done and as physicians we have the opportunity to play in all levels, from an individual to global level of care. There's never a shortage of work to improve the collective health of our society.

I can tell you would likely agree with the preventative aspect as you've touched on that in point 3, but...  

3 hours ago, canucks_14 said:

3) the ultimate yomen’s work is in bench research, not in being an MD.

This is a point I personally dislike not because it don't acknowledge the importance of research and novel treatment + prevention strategies in health care, but how it devalues the work done by others. This is actually an unfortunately common theme in health care. Specialists look down on family doctors. Doctors looking down on nurses. Surgeons looking down on other specialties, etc. I still remember a situation where in my interactions with another resident who pursued a specialty more focused on prevention that her internal medicine colleagues asked "why was she wasting her talents to do [specialty]?" (as if any of the specialties are a "waste of time"). All roles are important at different stages of the health care spectrum. Just because research is arguably at the forefront as they develop the treatments we use today doesn't mean we discredit the "caretaker role" (which is very distasteful to to implicitly disrespect like in the post). The point also discredits the difficulties physicians have in generating a differential diagnosis with often limited information and the complexities associated with patient care..... there's hundreds of things that can be wrong with someone that has "Abdominal pain" that it takes skill to integrate the information you learn to apply it in an arguably uncertain setting. Furthermore, just because you have the knowledge and developed the treatment, doesn't detract from the skill that's required to resuscitate patients in acute care settings (like EM, ICU/critical care, surgery, etc). I would be honored to be a "caretaker" just as much as I would be honored being a researcher developing the newest treatments.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At the end of the day your choice is your choice but I hope for others reading this post that you don't discount the amazing things we can do for not only our future patients but also for society as a whole if we put our minds to it. 

Best wishes everyone and have a good day, 

- G  

[jlkhhylyiluh6]

wow I hope this is a troll post because otherwise you are seriously a narcissistic douche. Very glad you decided to stay far away from medicine.

[canucks_14]

7 hours ago, IMislove said:

Especially with our ever increasing aging population, increasing morbidity and mortality that follow with it. And mental illness being such a big thing in young people. Medicine is definitely not in decline. But I see what you are trying to do,  especially in being proud of yourself even if Medicine isn’t for you. That’s perfectly okay, getting medicine shouldn’t be seen as a success or failure if you don’t. Just one of many paths to go. Best of luck in your path.

Dude. Being proud of myself even if medicine isn’t for me? As if medicine is the only way to be proud? Super strange way to word it. This suuuuper makes it sound like you have some kind of complex. Haha I could make so many more points. Like bitterness among doctors. Classic example right here in the holier than thou doctor seeing that some poor soul is still proud despite not being a doctor, and what a clever eye you have in spotting this! Nothing gets by you! Even if it’s compulsive and manipulative and false to make the assertion you’re making! Again this is why no single healthy sane person enjoys going to see a doctor. Everyone’s doing telehealth here now so we can be away from those shady creepy type of people. 

And Like dude here’s another newsflash for you, smart people generally don’t think doctors are smart. Ask any doctor if it is an intellectual challenge to be a doctor. In my experience I’ve been told by experienced physicians that being a doctor is not particularly intellectually challenging and I have no reason to doubt it and if you believe it more from here then there are med students who have corroborated that on here. First 2 years is pure rote....you know how many majors wouldn’t waste their time on that purely on intellectual grounds? It’s super boring and a waste of time to puzzle-solver types. I do think cases are kind of interesting but again it doesn’t satisfy me personally anywhere near the hard sciences cause medicine is way easier. Once again that’s why the respect level is not there from technical types or anyone who is able to see this fact. Part of the reason why I wanted to be more of a technician cause I saw a surgeon as having a higher expertise. But I mean cmon...netters is a picture book...I did that when I was 6 with dinosaurs it’s the exact same concept.

I’m very proud that I’m not pursuing medicine because I actually hate it and I think it’s a huge waste of my time. Waste of time for me because it’s a lot of work for a low salary. Also others have pointed out that physicians don’t live in boxes. But actually in the neighbourhoods that I’d like to continue to buy in, a married surgeon and dentist cannot come close to affording a house...it’s not even in some posh area of the US, just the reality in Vancouver.

To further elaborate this point for people that follow the US system, observers are noticing that Americans have almost no interest in medical school on the whole. They are heavily relying on foreigners now because Americans don’t want to do this type of job anymore. A doctor used to be seen as a good job a long time ago, and a millenia before that..... But now in the US almost no Caucasian American wants to do this job anymore. Look at how many ethnically Chinese and Indians are in the US medical system. I don’t know if you know this but Stanford has hardly any caucasians in med. Caucasians as a whole don’t have a huge interest in medicine anymore. Now I’m sure this is on a sliding scale in terms of income, because the poor caucasians who are misguided may not know any better. But do a test for me. Ask a 65 year old what it used to mean to be a doctor in America/Canada. You had cures for polio and new successfully surgeries and anything else you can think of. Now ask a 24 year old what it means to be a doctor. Guaranteed they will not idolize and be general “fans” of a doctor to the level that was seen in the older generation. Point illustrated as to why medicine is in serious decline on many fronts. And if you want the PC version that will allow you to not change your entire life framework then read the blog of ralk, former respected member in medical training. But back to the point is that, There will even be a lot of people who aren’t just not fans of doctors or neutral, but actually many have disdain for the medical viewpoint in terms of the criticisms that the body is not like a car, too many pills for side effects, misdiagnosis, medical mistakes as whole, etc. I mean look at the rise in naturopathy. I don’t know if you guys just aren’t seeing this as much cause you’re not on the west coast but naturopathy is huge now. I’m honestly just giving these posters the benefit of the doubt when I’m not sure if I should. Because if you are not seeing the problem with the medical system, then perhaps that is precisley the problem with it.

but for naturopaths People trust them more. And people are in fact obsessively healthy in terms of their diet and exercise. Your average millennial girl that has had weight issues and lost it has the same level of expertise as an RD. It’s not complicated to figure out average weighted nutritional values by mass...I know uneducated people who have done this with ease. But going back to the rise of naturopathy. People will always want advice no doubt. But being totally honest here no one of relatively good health is interested in chemical pharmaceuticals. And some docs do a good job, don’t provide you anything on a prescription pad cause you don’t need it just clean up the habits and you’ll be better. 

Anyways rather than getting to the delivery of medicine I think the key take away here is the role of the physician is in serious decline. Naturopathy. Healthy lifestyles amongst young people. I mean it’s not all good cause of juul and stuff so who knows things can change again I suppose. 

And what about pharmaceutical kickbacks for doctors?? I mean I feel like a ton of doctors love drugs when they are too lazy to give the complicated solutions of preventative medicine etc. Complicated in that it requires much more effort to figure out all of that then it does to see how much they weigh and then to drug away. I felt like I saw this all the time at the clinic if I had a flu back when I was still pro medicine. 

Just a word of advice. If you can be honest and give a truely honest critique of what is wrong with medicine then that will increase your productivity in making the world a better place X a trillion. Rather than pretending like there are no issues and having the blinders on, cause I have serious issues with that because that is extremely dangerous, incompetent, and disrespectful.

and as for the finances...the finances don’t make any sense. To specialize you do 9 years of more school. Do you have any idea how detreimental this is to bring financially successful? 500k a year is not worth that number of years of delay in income. That doesn’t even get you a nice mortgage in good parts of Vancouver. 

But excuse me I’m going to go out to the bar eat dinner watch football cause my life is awesome then study finance so I can get paid my 1.5ish million in pending financial deals for this MONTH. Anyways being open, transparent, and constructive is always a good idea no matter what profession you are in. 

 

[IMislove]

1 minute ago, canucks_14 said:

Dude. Being proud of myself even if medicine isn’t for me? As if medicine is the only way to be proud? Super strange way to word it. This suuuuper makes it sound like you have some kind of complex. Haha I could make so many more points. Like bitterness among doctors. Classic example right here in the holier than thou doctor seeing that some poor soul is still proud despite not being a doctor, and what a clever eye you have in spotting this! Nothing gets by you! Even if it’s compulsive and manipulative and false to make the assertion you’re making! Again this is why no single healthy sane person enjoys going to see a doctor. Everyone’s doing telehealth here now so we can be away from those shady creepy type of people. 

And Like dude here’s another newsflash for you, smart people generally don’t think doctors are smart. Ask any doctor if it is an intellectual challenge to be a doctor. In my experience I’ve been told by experienced physicians that being a doctor is not particularly intellectually challenging and I have no reason to doubt it and if you believe it more from here then there are med students who have corroborated that on here. First 2 years is pure rote....you know how many majors wouldn’t waste their time on that purely on intellectual grounds? It’s super boring and a waste of time to puzzle-solver types. I do think cases are kind of interesting but again it doesn’t satisfy me personally anywhere near the hard sciences cause medicine is way easier. Once again that’s why the respect level is not there from technical types or anyone who is able to see this fact. Part of the reason why I wanted to be more of a technician cause I saw a surgeon as having a higher expertise. But I mean cmon...netters is a picture book...I did that when I was 6 with dinosaurs it’s the exact same concept.

I’m very proud that I’m not pursuing medicine because I actually hate it and I think it’s a huge waste of my time. Waste of time for me because it’s a lot of work for a low salary. Also others have pointed out that physicians don’t live in boxes. But actually in the neighbourhoods that I’d like to continue to buy in, a married surgeon and dentist cannot come close to affording a house...it’s not even in some posh area of the US, just the reality in Vancouver.

To further elaborate this point for people that follow the US system, observers are noticing that Americans have almost no interest in medical school on the whole. They are heavily relying on foreigners now because Americans don’t want to do this type of job anymore. A doctor used to be seen as a good job a long time ago, and a millenia before that..... But now in the US almost no Caucasian American wants to do this job anymore. Look at how many ethnically Chinese and Indians are in the US medical system. I don’t know if you know this but Stanford has hardly any caucasians in med. Caucasians as a whole don’t have a huge interest in medicine anymore. Now I’m sure this is on a sliding scale in terms of income, because the poor caucasians who are misguided may not know any better. But do a test for me. Ask a 65 year old what it used to mean to be a doctor in America/Canada. You had cures for polio and new successfully surgeries and anything else you can think of. Now ask a 24 year old what it means to be a doctor. Guaranteed they will not idolize and be general “fans” of a doctor to the level that was seen in the older generation. Point illustrated as to why medicine is in serious decline on many fronts. And if you want the PC version that will allow you to not change your entire life framework then read the blog of ralk, former respected member in medical training. But back to the point is that, There will even be a lot of people who aren’t just not fans of doctors or neutral, but actually many have disdain for the medical viewpoint in terms of the criticisms that the body is not like a car, too many pills for side effects, misdiagnosis, medical mistakes as whole, etc. I mean look at the rise in naturopathy. I don’t know if you guys just aren’t seeing this as much cause you’re not on the west coast but naturopathy is huge now. I’m honestly just giving these posters the benefit of the doubt when I’m not sure if I should. Because if you are not seeing the problem with the medical system, then perhaps that is precisley the problem with it.

but for naturopaths People trust them more. And people are in fact obsessively healthy in terms of their diet and exercise. Your average millennial girl that has had weight issues and lost it has the same level of expertise as an RD. It’s not complicated to figure out average weighted nutritional values by mass...I know uneducated people who have done this with ease. But going back to the rise of naturopathy. People will always want advice no doubt. But being totally honest here no one of relatively good health is interested in chemical pharmaceuticals. And some docs do a good job, don’t provide you anything on a prescription pad cause you don’t need it just clean up the habits and you’ll be better. 

Anyways rather than getting to the delivery of medicine I think the key take away here is the role of the physician is in serious decline. Naturopathy. Healthy lifestyles amongst young people. I mean it’s not all good cause of juul and stuff so who knows things can change again I suppose. 

And what about pharmaceutical kickbacks for doctors?? I mean I feel like a ton of doctors love drugs when they are too lazy to give the complicated solutions of preventative medicine etc. Complicated in that it requires much more effort to figure out all of that then it does to see how much they weigh and then to drug away. I felt like I saw this all the time at the clinic if I had a flu back when I was still pro medicine. 

Just a word of advice. If you can be honest and give a truely honest critique of what is wrong with medicine then that will increase your productivity in making the world a better place X a trillion. Rather than pretending like there are no issues and having the blinders on, cause I have serious issues with that because that is extremely dangerous, incompetent, and disrespectful.

and as for the finances...the finances don’t make any sense. To specialize you do 9 years of more school. Do you have any idea how detreimental this is to bring financially successful? 500k a year is not worth that number of years of delay in income. That doesn’t even get you a nice mortgage in good parts of Vancouver. 

But excuse me I’m going to go out to the bar eat dinner watch football cause my life is awesome then study finance so I can get paid my 1.5ish million in pending financial deals for this MONTH. Anyways being open, transparent, and constructive is always a good idea no matter what profession you are in. 

 

 

Lul what. No, more like some people think less of themselves if they dont get in, hence the encouraging be proud of yourself. The rest I wont bother to read because you already took what I said and took a meaning way off from what it actually was. I'm flattered by the story though :D. Something something money. Already had a good job, wanted this instead XD DAYUMMMMM.

[Aconitase]

1 minute ago, canucks_14 said:

Dude. Being proud of myself even if medicine isn’t for me? As if medicine is the only way to be proud? Super strange way to word it. This suuuuper makes it sound like you have some kind of complex. Haha I could make so many more points. Like bitterness among doctors. Classic example right here in the holier than thou doctor seeing that some poor soul is still proud despite not being a doctor, and what a clever eye you have in spotting this! Nothing gets by you! Even if it’s compulsive and manipulative and false to make the assertion you’re making! Again this is why no single healthy sane person enjoys going to see a doctor. Everyone’s doing telehealth here now so we can be away from those shady creepy type of people. 

And Like dude here’s another newsflash for you, smart people generally don’t think doctors are smart. Ask any doctor if it is an intellectual challenge to be a doctor. In my experience I’ve been told by experienced physicians that being a doctor is not particularly intellectually challenging and I have no reason to doubt it and if you believe it more from here then there are med students who have corroborated that on here. First 2 years is pure rote....you know how many majors wouldn’t waste their time on that purely on intellectual grounds? It’s super boring and a waste of time to puzzle-solver types. I do think cases are kind of interesting but again it doesn’t satisfy me personally anywhere near the hard sciences cause medicine is way easier. Once again that’s why the respect level is not there from technical types or anyone who is able to see this fact. Part of the reason why I wanted to be more of a technician cause I saw a surgeon as having a higher expertise. But I mean cmon...netters is a picture book...I did that when I was 6 with dinosaurs it’s the exact same concept.

I’m very proud that I’m not pursuing medicine because I actually hate it and I think it’s a huge waste of my time. Waste of time for me because it’s a lot of work for a low salary. Also others have pointed out that physicians don’t live in boxes. But actually in the neighbourhoods that I’d like to continue to buy in, a married surgeon and dentist cannot come close to affording a house...it’s not even in some posh area of the US, just the reality in Vancouver.

To further elaborate this point for people that follow the US system, observers are noticing that Americans have almost no interest in medical school on the whole. They are heavily relying on foreigners now because Americans don’t want to do this type of job anymore. A doctor used to be seen as a good job a long time ago, and a millenia before that..... But now in the US almost no Caucasian American wants to do this job anymore. Look at how many ethnically Chinese and Indians are in the US medical system. I don’t know if you know this but Stanford has hardly any caucasians in med. Caucasians as a whole don’t have a huge interest in medicine anymore. Now I’m sure this is on a sliding scale in terms of income, because the poor caucasians who are misguided may not know any better. But do a test for me. Ask a 65 year old what it used to mean to be a doctor in America/Canada. You had cures for polio and new successfully surgeries and anything else you can think of. Now ask a 24 year old what it means to be a doctor. Guaranteed they will not idolize and be general “fans” of a doctor to the level that was seen in the older generation. Point illustrated as to why medicine is in serious decline on many fronts. And if you want the PC version that will allow you to not change your entire life framework then read the blog of ralk, former respected member in medical training. But back to the point is that, There will even be a lot of people who aren’t just not fans of doctors or neutral, but actually many have disdain for the medical viewpoint in terms of the criticisms that the body is not like a car, too many pills for side effects, misdiagnosis, medical mistakes as whole, etc. I mean look at the rise in naturopathy. I don’t know if you guys just aren’t seeing this as much cause you’re not on the west coast but naturopathy is huge now. I’m honestly just giving these posters the benefit of the doubt when I’m not sure if I should. Because if you are not seeing the problem with the medical system, then perhaps that is precisley the problem with it.

but for naturopaths People trust them more. And people are in fact obsessively healthy in terms of their diet and exercise. Your average millennial girl that has had weight issues and lost it has the same level of expertise as an RD. It’s not complicated to figure out average weighted nutritional values by mass...I know uneducated people who have done this with ease. But going back to the rise of naturopathy. People will always want advice no doubt. But being totally honest here no one of relatively good health is interested in chemical pharmaceuticals. And some docs do a good job, don’t provide you anything on a prescription pad cause you don’t need it just clean up the habits and you’ll be better. 

Anyways rather than getting to the delivery of medicine I think the key take away here is the role of the physician is in serious decline. Naturopathy. Healthy lifestyles amongst young people. I mean it’s not all good cause of juul and stuff so who knows things can change again I suppose. 

And what about pharmaceutical kickbacks for doctors?? I mean I feel like a ton of doctors love drugs when they are too lazy to give the complicated solutions of preventative medicine etc. Complicated in that it requires much more effort to figure out all of that then it does to see how much they weigh and then to drug away. I felt like I saw this all the time at the clinic if I had a flu back when I was still pro medicine. 

Just a word of advice. If you can be honest and give a truely honest critique of what is wrong with medicine then that will increase your productivity in making the world a better place X a trillion. Rather than pretending like there are no issues and having the blinders on, cause I have serious issues with that because that is extremely dangerous, incompetent, and disrespectful.

and as for the finances...the finances don’t make any sense. To specialize you do 9 years of more school. Do you have any idea how detreimental this is to bring financially successful? 500k a year is not worth that number of years of delay in income. That doesn’t even get you a nice mortgage in good parts of Vancouver. 

But excuse me I’m going to go out to the bar eat dinner watch football cause my life is awesome then study finance so I can get paid my 1.5ish million in pending financial deals for this MONTH. Anyways being open, transparent, and constructive is always a good idea no matter what profession you are in. 

 

Wow. Sour grapes my friend? I am not going to go through your post and answer back to your points as I suspect that is what you want me to do  

 

You have made your point: that you think doctors aren’t that smart, the work sucks, and it isn’t paid well and you seem to have made the right choice in leaving medicine. 

 

I couldnt agree more. You made the right choice. 

 

Now how how about you get off the premed forum and go to a finance forum? If you are that smart a finance guy and have bars and women to hit up then why do you have time to come here and tell us how much our lives suck?

[smac]

6 minutes ago, canucks_14 said:

but for naturopaths People trust them more. And people are in fact obsessively healthy in terms of their diet and exercise. Your average millennial girl that has had weight issues and lost it has the same level of expertise as an RD. It’s not complicated to figure out average weighted nutritional values by mass...I know uneducated people who have done this with ease. But going back to the rise of naturopathy. People will always want advice no doubt. But being totally honest here no one of relatively good health is interested in chemical pharmaceuticals. And some docs do a good job, don’t provide you anything on a prescription pad cause you don’t need it just clean up the habits and you’ll be better. 

 

I think it's really good you chose finance because you don't really have a grasp of current health problem in this country. Just finished my MPH degree and there are a lot of complex health problems we need to solve with doctors, nurses, nutritionists and other allied health professionals. It seems odd that if you're making 1.5 million dollars this month that you have time to write these long rants on a premed forum about how horrible medicine is. Best of luck in your future business career I hope you approach it with a positive attitude. 

[canucks_14]

Ok my point is people are living longer healthier lives. Couple that with the actual acceleration of progress in terms of technology and economic productivity...there are a lot of reasons to be optimistic that lifespan and general health and quality of life will only increase which will reduce the current problems even further down. 20 years of progress in the future is not equivalent to the 20 years of progress starting in the fifties. Everything’s easier faster better to figure out now. This is why life only gets better with time because we have more and more tools. 

And yes you are all right! I should not even be on here because before logging on this afternoon I debated it because it’s the most unproductive thing I’ve done since last being active on here last year! I should probably be working yes absolutely! But now I have the luxury of independence. Even if I take off some 0s in that figure and lose some deals hey life is pretty good for me still! But this was not my intent. I was thinking adults can have a frank discussion with no BS. Rather than lashing out at my personality how about we evaluate my critiques of the medical system. Sadly it looks like the awareness and initiative is not there amongst most of those who have replied this afternoon. 

But anyways I’m gonna go cause I feel bad now cause you guys are probably just like 22 years old. Didn’t think of that and it’s kind of an unfair debate. Honestly and sincerely all the best to everyone and my only real gripe with medicine if I’m in your shoes again is that I want those in it to care more about it so that it can be improved from our current standard significantly. And also more well rounded ness. Everyone should be as sharp as a tac! If that can be achieved then I think that’s quite good for everyone by leaps and bounds.

[MitralLunar]

20 minutes ago, canucks_14 said:

Ok my point is people are living longer healthier lives. Couple that with the actual acceleration of progress in terms of technology and economic productivity...there are a lot of reasons to be optimistic that lifespan and general health and quality of life will only increase which will reduce the current problems even further down. 20 years of progress in the future is not equivalent to the 20 years of progress starting in the fifties. Everything’s easier faster better to figure out now. This is why life only gets better with time because we have more and more tools. 

And yes you are all right! I should not even be on here because before logging on this afternoon I debated it because it’s the most unproductive thing I’ve done since last being active on here last year! I should probably be working yes absolutely! But now I have the luxury of independence. Even if I take off some 0s in that figure and lose some deals hey life is pretty good for me still! But this was not my intent. I was thinking adults can have a frank discussion with no BS. Rather than lashing out at my personality how about we evaluate my critiques of the medical system. Sadly it looks like the awareness and initiative is not there amongst most of those who have replied this afternoon. 

But anyways I’m gonna go cause I feel bad now cause you guys are probably just like 22 years old. Didn’t think of that and it’s kind of an unfair debate. Honestly and sincerely all the best to everyone and my only real gripe with medicine if I’m in your shoes again is that I want those in it to care more about it so that it can be improved from our current standard significantly. And also more well rounded ness. Everyone should be as sharp as a tac! If that can be achieved then I think that’s quite good for everyone by leaps and bounds.

I seriously don't think anyone on this forum believes you are legit. You reek of bs and from what you wrote you have a nearly non-existent understanding of the healthcare landscape. Prob some high schooler with a ton of free time on hands or a classic example of delusional coping mechanism on display.

[Aconitase]

30 minutes ago, canucks_14 said:

Ok my point is people are living longer healthier lives. Couple that with the actual acceleration of progress in terms of technology and economic productivity...there are a lot of reasons to be optimistic that lifespan and general health and quality of life will only increase which will reduce the current problems even further down. 20 years of progress in the future is not equivalent to the 20 years of progress starting in the fifties. Everything’s easier faster better to figure out now. This is why life only gets better with time because we have more and more tools. 

And yes you are all right! I should not even be on here because before logging on this afternoon I debated it because it’s the most unproductive thing I’ve done since last being active on here last year! I should probably be working yes absolutely! But now I have the luxury of independence. Even if I take off some 0s in that figure and lose some deals hey life is pretty good for me still! But this was not my intent. I was thinking adults can have a frank discussion with no BS. Rather than lashing out at my personality how about we evaluate my critiques of the medical system. Sadly it looks like the awareness and initiative is not there amongst most of those who have replied this afternoon. 

But anyways I’m gonna go cause I feel bad now cause you guys are probably just like 22 years old. Didn’t think of that and it’s kind of an unfair debate. Honestly and sincerely all the best to everyone and my only real gripe with medicine if I’m in your shoes again is that I want those in it to care more about it so that it can be improved from our current standard significantly. And also more well rounded ness. Everyone should be as sharp as a tac! If that can be achieved then I think that’s quite good for everyone by leaps and bounds.

Please don’t come back. Let’s see if you can at least do that  good luck 

[canucks_14]

Mitra - What part specifically is BS? All the facts that you don’t know or that there’s way more appealing jobs than doctor?

[Aconitase]

1 minute ago, canucks_14 said:

Mitra - What part specifically is BS? All the facts that you don’t know or that there’s way more appealing jobs than doctor?

I knew you couldn’t just go away lol. Trolls gotta troll. 

 

If there is any truth to what you say you have made your point. Please go away and stop wasting our time and go annoy your new finance buddies. Models and bottles buddy not trolling doctors. 

[canucks_14]

Interesting. Again with the personal jabs. 

Every jab I made was a criticism at the merits of the situation. You’re not even jabbing what would be considered to be a dispute in merit. You’re just insulting my life with stereotypes which does not serve the initial purpose of the constructive nature of this thread. 

[Aconitase]

16 minutes ago, canucks_14 said:

Interesting. Again with the personal jabs. 

Every jab I made was a criticism at the merits of the situation. You’re not even jabbing what would be considered to be a dispute in merit. You’re just insulting my life with stereotypes which does not serve the initial purpose of the constructive nature of this thread. 

Why can’t you just go away? You made your point. Go live your best life and leave us alone 

[canucks_14]

Okay. Goodbye

[aspiringstudent]

12 minutes ago, canucks_14 said:

Interesting. Again with the personal jabs. 

Every jab I made was a criticism at the merits of the situation. You’re not even jabbing what would be considered to be a dispute in merit. You’re just insulting my life with stereotypes which does not serve the initial purpose of the constructive nature of this thread. 

Althought I agree that none of us should be insulting each other here as this is a thread and we're all mature (I hope), you do have to understand you're going to get criticism based off the points you made lol, such as medicine being a dying field, money, your application being competitive, etc.

It seems as if you were interested more in money than actually helping people. People aren't getting healthier. Just because the average lifespan is getting higher and higher in developed countries doesn't mean people are healthier. Doctors will always be needed. I for one know that both Canada and US will be needing an influx of internal medical physicians. India alone needs 10 million medical professionals in the next 10 years. It's a profession you go into to help people. It's a profession not everyone can do but that's okay! It really isn't for everyone and there's nothing wrong with that at all.

Secondly, your application, although impressive, doesn't mean it's that impressive for medicine. Just because you have research, sports, and business doesn't mean much for medical schools lol. I had a friend who almost made it into the NBA, dabbed in entrepreneurship by being an app developer, 4.0 GPA, 520 MCAT, and had 5 publications by 4th year. He got rejected 2 years in a row from almost every school in Canada. You need to diversify your application more (more charity work, volunteering, giving back to community) to show more character. 

I don't want to come off as being judgemental but just by reading your giant message (I read it all haha) I picture you as a cocky and arrogant person in real life for some reason. That may be just me but that's definitely not the quality you would want out of a doctor. Regardless, I wish you all the success in your life and thank you for trying to send a positive message to people who aren't striving their medical goals too! :) 

[CardiacArrhythmia]

Medicine has its pros and cons. Finance has its pros and cons.We can not simply take one point of view in things - whether its OP's own views or someone elses. Every viewpoint always has their own underlying reasons, and it's through understanding multiple viewpoints is when we can start tackling the main problem. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions - but personally, no one should ever be ridiculed on their thoughts. 

I enjoy good arguments and debates, mediating through conflicts and coherently finding an agreeable answer (which is what I personally find rewarding). What I do not enjoy is personal attacks that deviate from the argument itself - being on premed101 for a few years, I noticed personal attacks seem to be having more of an occurrence lately over the specific argument at hand. 

Please stay a bit more friendly people, and for those who already are -  keep it up :). 

[Rabeprazole]

I feel like this is the perfect example of humans being resilient creatures. We have the ability to alter our desires and convince ourselves that our situations, regardless of the obstacles, are great. We can walk out from failure after failure and still have the ability to forge a new path - the path the we always "intended" to take. Thank you for this. 

[indefatigable]

Everyone's different - different values and goals.  It's much better that you've figured out now that medicine isn't right for you instead of later, if you were enrolled in  medicine, when it would be harder to switch - accumulated debt and even more time spent on education.  

With respect to your points, there's a lot of worry even in the US about increased demands on the health-care system in part because of an ageing population, but it's fine if you don't see it that way and it's also good for yourself to realize you're not interested in treating the elderly.  Since this is a health-profession forum, many won't see things your way.  

With  regards to personal finances, even in a big city, most people earn a decent living with medicine - but if you're looking for that ocean-front mansion in Vancouver, a M.D. won't be enough.

I'd simply add that there are many, many aspiring multi-millionaires - for some the dream works out, for many it doesn't.  Many also work gruelling hours - as much as the toughest residencies without any certainty that they'll make it - many don't.  

In your case, it seems you've had a successful business and you think there's further potential for a lot of growth.  As they say, good luck with your future endeavours.  

[VigoVirgo]

12 hours ago, canucks_14 said:

Okay so I think the people that used to read my posts/post with are probably knee deep in clerkships/residencies and beyond by now but I just wanted to share my story and put it on the internet forever in the off chance that it helps someone accomplish their goals, and maybe particularly help someone make some key life decisions. For the record I ended up with an ultra competitive application last year that I would not have believed could be possible.  

So for quite a long time...I was absolutely obsessed and determined to get into medicine...probably 6-7 years. It actually became a defining feature of who I was to others I knew socially. But I could make a strong case that thinking that medicine was right for me for so long was one of the worst decisions of my life and kind of a waste of 6ish years. I was absolutely sure that I wanted nothing more than to go to med school become a doc then do some more training (a lot) and work to get paid to help people get treated for illnesses. But this alludes to the problem. I wanted to get paid more than anything. I was seriously lying to myself that I could get by with the career satisfaction and remuneration of a physician (including costs for training and low resident salaries). I naively scoffed at other accounts of those older than me that there are problems with this path...but I thought I wouldn’t be like that. I mean how happy would I be when the moment I finish that MCAT and that same summer night when I’m done the biggest hurdle in getting accepted...and how happy would I actually be when I get that acceptance? Speaking of which, during one of my volunteering activities I met a woman who was one out of the 3 women who was in the inaugural class of med school at UBC. She was so wonderful when she struck up a conversation with me when I had shared with the group that I was a bio major. But she said something absolutely horrifying to me...and before I say what it was let me say that she had a great career as a specialist working with a desirable population and her husband was a great himself in that he had that ultra specialized big city position in the US and later on became dean of a medical school and was instrumental in its development. Definitely fulfilling careers right? And they were in love! The horrifying thing she told me was that the day she got accepted into medical school was the best day of her life. That absolutely scared me to death that I was making a big mistake. Now before you construe that she meant that it was the beginning of everything and the birth of something beautiful...it was clear from our conversation that that’s not what she meant...she was very clearly saying...I remember being that age...it was good...it’s all downhill from there kid. So that was pretty unsettling but of course I was still dismissive because this was my dream...my biggest dream...I don’t want an anticlamtic let down of my life just as how she described hers and her husbands...her husband was in the Canadian med hall of fame for goodness sakes...it was everything success in med is supposed to be from a gunners standpoint haha. 

Anyways where I’m going with this is...I think there was a perfect storm of factors in my life that lead me to believe a career in medicine was the best for me. Those were:

-high science marks coupled with personal satisfaction of course completions in these areas

-family wanted me to be successful

-TV studios/positive real life anecdotes of income and other factors from people who aren’t doctors 

-thought that cute smart girls were in higher proportions in medicine haha so emabrsssig to admit! (By this logic I probably should have just kept my hotel restaurant server/busboy job) 

-not knowing anything real or tangible (ie not internet “stats” or other online readings about other careers) about any careers other than healthcare  ——-thinking that medicine was actually a high paying career in that it will get you rich. 

-ingrained with academic success being a top priority from peers/the world at large since the age of 6 

-thought that the work of a physician was more important than almost all other lines of work...

-it’s a respected profession

-probably other more typical reasons 

And so there are 4 main things that ultimately made me realize to decide against a medical career. 

1)People are going to need medicine less and less.

people are getting to be so healthy nowadays. The move towards exercise and healthy diet is going to extend lives and prevent disease to such a great effect that I think as someone in your 20s medicine is kind of a bad spot to be in....physician compensation has been on a strong and steady decline since the mid 80s...yeah that’s a decline when inflation has obviously gone up a lot in the same time frame. So from an economic perspective the declines should not be this big but again the declines in patients are very real. I was super interested in CV surg so I assume it’s not true for all specialties but I mean I personally don’t think there’s many diseases that can’t be fended off with a life of exercise and plants to prevent it from ever happening. Obviously some disease will happen in reality but you get the point...the healthier people are...the lower the compensation...and it’s obvious people are healthier than ever. I mean for the young people I know seeing a doctor is pretty irrelevant. It serves no purpose. A doctor is a non issue to the vast majority of young people. It’s just not something people generally think about. Obv there are exceptions but for a lot of healthy people they don’t ever need to see a doctor....kind of a thought that ruins the whole super important work theme. Obv it is for the people who need it. But just look at philanthropy. You heard it hear im aggressively calling for disease irradication in the decades to come. There will a ton of prevent through healthy habits and then philanthropy will push towards cures for diseases. 

 

2) I don’t have an interest in treating old people all day. 

Assume that my premise in point 1 evolves so that the disease that does occur generally happens more often in older people (this is already true obviously but just assuming it becomes more pronounced in an increasingly adherent in being healthy population). Ok so now some specialities just have tons of old people that make up the patient population. I don’t know why but I’d rather hang out and work with young people who are my peers rather than spending 20 years after med school studying and training just to hang out exclusively with old people for the few years of my shortned career. Correct me if I’m wrong but it’s gotta be like 10x more old people in a hospital than young people. 

 

3) the ultimate yomen’s work is in bench research, not in being an MD.

I think this is so overlooked. Being the gunner that I am little did I know that research is much more ambitious than an MD clinical route. So many laypeople see doctors as the heros fighting disease....in reality I have a strong argument that I would consider actually a truth in that, curing all diseases or disease prevention is infinitely better than treating them after the fact - any way you slice it. And the level of understanding that a good scientist has is astounding...an MD doing clinical just doesn’t have that kind of time to know the science to that same level. In effect a doctor is just a caretaker rather than a crusader against disease. In my last year of considering medicine I was lured to thinking I could do a PhD/MD at a top research school. I ultimately decided against research as well because of .....

 

4) Money!!!

So for some reason I’ve said on this forum that I would be a surgeon for free if my basic living costs can be covered so like maybe 40k a year. No idea how I thought this. But I think when you’ve put that many hours into something in a short period of time and your yet to achieve any real success or any ultimate accomplishment your bias gets you to lie to yourself in a non objective way. I’ve actually always loved money. Money is equal to independence pure and simple. When you have money no one can control you and only you control yourself. And I knew this, and even began searching for high paid options in medicine that would allow me to live the lifestyle I want. I found out that basically no academic neurosurgeons in the US make under a million a year for a variety of reasons (any call they do is not calculated in their posted salaries, it is totally excluded. And for a neurosurgeon this can be 200-300 extra a year. And then also the different aspects of their position will not be included. For example administrative compensation as a manager chief whatever may be filed under something else and research may fall under some other division of employment as well. So basically the number you see posted on a hospitals employee list of salaries is one out of 4 potential income streams that they can make. At least for the US. But anyways I thought ok that’s pretty good I can try to do really well and be committed to medicine and make a million a year. But then I realized this is shortchanging the lifestyle I want. My current career allows me to attempt to make 60x this figure at the peak of the industry in this country so yes 60 million and actually much much more than that is also possible. This is just something important to me. I want to make as much money as possible because I think that’s cool. Some people clearly hate money and all that western democratic capitalism has provided us. I am not one of these people. I’m sure these people got the set of CARS questions wrong that has to do with topics on capitalism, the constitution etc. I for one however aced those parts of the CARS practice tests. I have an ultimate appreciation for the economic system and the transformative change associated with wealth. Money motivates me more than anything else. As soon San I started traveling across the states...forget about it. No way am I hanging out at a hospital everyday. Plus I’m big into real estate and business so I want to start several companies spread out through different industries and also own some trophy properties on the water in some great cities. Waterfront properties in the cities I’m looking at can’t be afforded by a plastic surgeon or any doctor in the world (except Patrick Soon b/c he’s a billionaire from his business ventures). But that’s the point. The things I want to accomplish in life are reserved for billionaires and people close to it. So I’d rather be honest with myself and try to achieve that rather than trying to change who I am for a profession I don’t want.

An American perspective is that the reason you choose med is irrelevent, including if money is the motivation. But if you are at all interested in making money, such to the point that you’d think you’d definitely need more than 350k a year then you should absolutely pursue other avenues. Income is unlimited in other areas. Do that if that’s what you care about. I wholeheartedly belive money should not be a part of your decision to be a doctor. In my analysis it makes for bad doctors. 

So I just thought I’d go on record to say that I had probably the most competitive unconventional application you’ve ever seen. Grades could be a lot higher and no MCAT so that’s unknown but could make a strong case based on ECs accomplishments alone. 

 

-I started a business that earned 200k in retained earnings a year at 23...on a part time basis, 

-I could run a 4 minute mile and was offered a spot on the UBC track team and was in talks with world renowned international Olympic coaches. Definitely could have ran at close to an Olympic level With some more training. World record used to be 4 mins in the 50s when systemic racism was prevalent ha ha 

-I got my grades up with some serious GPA repair...I failed a ton of classes my first two years but still ended up with an A average after a large amount of credits. It’s actually an A- average I believe which is the low side but pretty proud of it and don’t think it’s a hindersnce for a lot of schools. 

-I got 6 months of extensive research experience in bench work with a heavy hitting Ivy League biochemist and was urged to start writing review articles in neuroscience. and was also offered a somewhat permanent but definitely long term research position with another acclaimed tenured scientist at his lab at an Ivy League institution.

The reason I’m sharing this is not only to make myself feel good (ha ha) but also to show people what is possible in bouncing back from adversity. How many people fail a semester or a class or two and figure that’s the end of any dream they have. had you told me I had done all these things and have them on paper by 25 I would’ve said that’s insanity. But above all else, I had a vision for myself. And I think in particular I have a talent for having incredible vision but I think it’s something that others can try to cultivate. Even if you’re in 1st year and you’re not getting the grades you want...you can cultivate a future for yourself where you are successful. As much as I regret learning about valence electrons for 2 years of my life I belive I received an excellent education because of coursework and well rounded experiences. Exactly what the idea of post secondary education is supposed to cultivate. So in a lot of ways I set out to accomplish everything I was looking for in my quarter life, less an MCAT score. But you get the point. So even if you failed two semesters maybe don’t move back home and wait tables again at your old job and see where it goes...you can try to have persistence and accomplish everything you set out to accomplish originally (as long as you can take care of your health while doing it) Overcoming great odds to achieve success will make you a better person. I went from academic probation to an Ivy League research career with the presumption of grad school in basic science at said Ivy League school. Even though I won’t need to know a single thing from college now for any reason becuse im not a scientist. But hey who knows it might’ve made me better not just on paper but in practice. (Ironic that practice is the last word on this thought).

If anyone is ever looking for tips to be successful in college and in particular bounce back from failed grades then DM me and I’d be happy to talk to you to try to help or chat about anything else. What might save a lot of time in explaining is that everyone looking for a study strategy should be doing Cornell Notes. Learning researchers say this is the most effective way to learn and retain information. Also if you have the time you can make a habit of going to the library for some hours. Just you and your course content it’s up to you to learn it and not get distracted. I always liked the library environment and what a great feeling getting out having learned hundreds of things in a few hours before an exam....I always thought after doing some university exams how funny the expression “you learn something new everyday” is. Before an exam I’d easily learn hundreds of things in a day so felt that quote to be a little inadequate now ha ha. 

Anyways until next time PM101. Good luck in whatever you choose! You can do it!

 

 

Why are you self promoting and bragging about your accomplishments? I'm not a certified psychologist but I do have a degree in psyc which is just about finished and am only interested in med for psychiatry and what you keep doing is objectively a symptom of clinical narcissism.  Inflating your accomplishments.  Ok you like money, great, you started a business in your early 20's making lots of money...good for you? You wanted to get into medicine for money? Ok. Unlike you some people are not as materialistic and don't care about going into medicine for money. Did you even get 1 acceptance to a medical school but decided to decline and pursue your new found passions or are you just coming here to pretend you're better than everyone? Jesus christ talk about making a big song and dance about things. Go work on your personality. Or actually, don't. You're perfect for finance. But I agree with the other poster please go away.

[A-Stark]

Holy hypomania Batman!