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19 minutes ago, rmorelan said:

ha, it is amazing how often unprofessional is confused with being inconvenient. 

 

1 hour ago, xiphoid said:

THIS. We just automatically lose 50% if anything is submitted late :rolleyes:

Showing up less than 15 minutes before the start of an exam however (and yes, even 1 second is considered late when they have the world clock projected at the front of the exam room), that's a different story... Have to literally sign a form acknowledging that you showed up late before you're allowed to enter, and then the year director is notified of your "unprofessionalism".

 

In my program, professionalism is taken very seriously in the upper-level classes. For instance, we have one class where if a student behaves unprofessionally (there is an extensive list which includes excessive tardiness, use of language, quality of work, respect of peers, etc.) the program can reduce that student’s grade by 50% for the course. Also, we have another class with multiple deliverable each week, and if any assignment is late, the student receives an “incomplete” for the course. Both classes are mandatory for graduation, so basically the school is attempting to weed out students who are unprofessional from graduating.

It is intense, but it sends a powerful message. I also believe the students try harder and are forced to learn some important skills.

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1 hour ago, Opichi said:

In my program, professionalism is taken very seriously in the upper-level classes. For instance, we have one class where if a student behaves unprofessionally (there is an extensive list which includes excessive tardiness, use of language, quality of work, respect of peers, etc.) the program can reduce that student’s grade by 50% for the course. Also, we have another class with multiple deliverable each week, and if any assignment is late, the student receives an “incomplete” for the course. Both classes are mandatory for graduation, so basically the school is attempting to weed out students who are unprofessional from graduating.

It is intense, but it sends a powerful message. I also believe the students try harder and are forced to learn some important skills.

My class has started joking (but really only half joking) that you're most likely to fail out of med school for not being professional, not for being not smart enough. Honestly though, I fail to see how making me stressed about having to get to an exam 15 minutes before the start time on the dot is going to make me a better physician in a few years time or a better clerk in 1.5 years. Like sure you want to be early to impress during clerkship and electives, and probably residency too, but in the real world, preceptors will not have the world clock projected in their office/patient's room to see if I'm exactly X minutes early.

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3 minutes ago, xiphoid said:

My class has started joking (but really only half joking) that you're most likely to fail out of med school for not being professional, not for being not smart enough. Honestly though, I fail to see how making me stressed about having to get to an exam 15 minutes before the start time on the dot is going to make me a better physician in a few years time or a better clerk in 1.5 years. Like sure you want to be early to impress during clerkship and electives, and probably residency too, but in the real world, preceptors will not have the world clock projected in their office/patient's room to see if I'm exactly X minutes early.

Ha, I hated showing up early for exams all through out my training - just standing around with a bunch of other people all nervous etc. I usually showed up exactly on time and just sat down and started. Mentally that was what I thought was best for doing well. 

We do need to screen for unprofessional behaviour, as it is important. Still I am not sure that the proxies they are using always do measure that mind you. They may be measuring other important skills etc, but that is always the exact same thing. The term professionalism often seems to grow to include almost any behaviour the school doesn't like, to the point where the term begins to lose a lot of its important meaning. It also comes off as very paternalistic at times. 

In a professional setting doctors are often late as an example -  and that ISN'T unprofessional in of itself. The question is why are they late - only with that can you answer things. Intent is extremely important here. 

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4 minutes ago, rmorelan said:

We do need to screen for unprofessional behaviour, as it is important. Still I am not sure that the proxies they are using always do measure that mind you. They may be measuring other important skills etc, but that is always the exact same thing. The term professionalism often seems to grow to include almost any behaviour the school doesn't like, to the point where the term begins to lose a lot of its important meaning. It also comes off as very paternalistic at times. 

I completely agree that unprofessionalism is very important; also agree that the med school seems to use a very broad definition of the word professionalism. Things like if we RSVP for an event but then do not go to the event without giving at least 24 hours notice, is written up as unprofessional conduct on our part. I think my annoyance is simply with the fact that it seems to be used against us by the med school to get us to do exactly what they want us to do and make their lives easier. At the end of the day, we're all adults, life happens, sometimes things just don't go according to plan and that shouldn't come as a point against us for professionalism.

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4 hours ago, xiphoid said:

I completely agree that unprofessionalism is very important; also agree that the med school seems to use a very broad definition of the word professionalism. Things like if we RSVP for an event but then do not go to the event without giving at least 24 hours notice, is written up as unprofessional conduct on our part. I think my annoyance is simply with the fact that it seems to be used against us by the med school to get us to do exactly what they want us to do and make their lives easier. At the end of the day, we're all adults, life happens, sometimes things just don't go according to plan and that shouldn't come as a point against us for professionalism.

Yep. My experience was that our signed family practice forms were due at 6pm on a Friday. I was late and submitted it at 7pm, but the level of pettiness and passive aggressiveness in the email I received was ridiculous considering the fact that there was no way on earth anyone on staff was checking forms after 6pm on on Friday. It was my first ever 'infraction' and they literally threatened to not allow me to advance in the program. Even things like reviewing lecturers are considered a professional responsibility. I definitely agree that it seems like professionalism is just how the university gets us to do whatever they want/need us to, given that they have relatively little power in a pass/fail system. 

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8 hours ago, OwnerOfTheTARDIS said:

I definitely agree that it seems like professionalism is just how the university gets us to do whatever they want/need us to, given that they have relatively little power in a pass/fail system. 

It often seems this way to me as well. The expectations are applied inconsistently and often inappropriately, which makes it feel all the more disingenuous. For example, the last time I tried to notify them in advance that I was going to be absent for a day for an important personal reason, someone in the chain was unsatisfied with the two paragraphs I wrote about how I would make up the time. I was tossed into a long back and forth requiring me to repeatedly detail the tiny minutia of why I would be absent and exactly who I would contact and exactly how I would make up every hour of missed time. Even though I had already given them 95% of that info in my initial request, because I missed one thing they were treating me like I was trying to put one past them. Every email included the threat that if I didn’t give them exactly what they wanted my absence wouldn’t be approved and I would risk professional misconduct if I didn’t come to class. All that, for trying to trying to act professionally and let people know ahead of time I wouldn’t be there.

And as I have discovered from talking to other students, if you just skip class and submit an unexplained absence claiming you were sick, no one seems to care. So doing the right thing professionally amounts basically to a punishment, and you may be better off to lie. Not a great example to set. 

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Hmm interesting... that actually reminds me of something similar that goes on in European and Asian medical schools.  Although not all, at least some of these schools are also quite strict on the professionalism aspect.  For example, for each exam (whether it be oral or written), all medical students are required to dress formally (anything less than a formal attire is unacceptable) and to be at the exam location no later than 30 minutes before its start.  Students who don't abide by such rules are deemed for professional misconduct.  So, maybe these strict policies are common across most medical programs?

On the other hand, from the educational administration perspective these tight regulations may make sense.  It's hard to draw the line of leniency; i.e. what is and what is not considered as a legitimate excuse.  If they are too lenient, the program may fail in building professional character within its prospective medical doctors.  If they are too strict, the program itself may fail at valuing empathy and its mentors may not become the role models they were hoping to be for students.  Ultimately, the general public typically holds physicians in high regard, and as a result forms expectations from these professionals.  Perhaps educators are currently seeing some physicians who may have dipped in their professional conduct in matters, for example, related to punctuality.  As a result, they wish to emphasize and tightly regulate this at the root level of medical education so that the doctors of tomorrow demonstrate a consistent professionalism throughout their careers.  Having said that, I am NOT an expert on any of these issues at all – just giving voice to thought.  Curious to know what others think.

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This is off topic but I was just reading the thread from 2017/2018 interviews/regrets and I am feeling very discouraged now haha. My GPA is on the lower side (80) and I am a non trad applicant since I am 28. its my first time applying-took me awhile to figure out what I wanted to do with my life lol. 

EC: research (wet lab- bladder cancer and COBRA protein in plants, pollution study that involves interviewing lung cancer patients and smoking cessation counselling, Pre-eclampsia study with south asian women, worked on a paper on John Hopps, project with WHO evaluating maternal deaths in Africa, Other stuff like working at a vet hospital 4 years, volunteer with children with disabilities and horses, volunteer in animal conservation, few other things. 

It seems a lot of people with more extensive experience were rejected last year.... the next couple days are going to be the longest ever! 

 

 

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5 hours ago, slslsl said:

This is off topic but I was just reading the thread from 2017/2018 interviews/regrets and I am feeling very discouraged now haha. My GPA is on the lower side (80) and I am a non trad applicant since I am 28. its my first time applying-took me awhile to figure out what I wanted to do with my life lol. 

EC: research (wet lab- bladder cancer and COBRA protein in plants, pollution study that involves interviewing lung cancer patients and smoking cessation counselling, Pre-eclampsia study with south asian women, worked on a paper on John Hopps, project with WHO evaluating maternal deaths in Africa, Other stuff like working at a vet hospital 4 years, volunteer with children with disabilities and horses, volunteer in animal conservation, few other things. 

It seems a lot of people with more extensive experience were rejected last year.... the next couple days are going to be the longest ever! 

 

 

Based off of last year’s AQ equation, your AQ is ~15. Last years cutoff for an IP interview was ~52. You’ll need a ~37 on your NAQ to score an interview (disclaimer: this is ENTIRELY a guess based off of last year’s numbers). Definitely possible with your amazing ECs. 

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5 hours ago, slslsl said:

This is off topic but I was just reading the thread from 2017/2018 interviews/regrets and I am feeling very discouraged now haha. My GPA is on the lower side (80) and I am a non trad applicant since I am 28. its my first time applying-took me awhile to figure out what I wanted to do with my life lol. 

EC: research (wet lab- bladder cancer and COBRA protein in plants, pollution study that involves interviewing lung cancer patients and smoking cessation counselling, Pre-eclampsia study with south asian women, worked on a paper on John Hopps, project with WHO evaluating maternal deaths in Africa, Other stuff like working at a vet hospital 4 years, volunteer with children with disabilities and horses, volunteer in animal conservation, few other things. 

It seems a lot of people with more extensive experience were rejected last year.... the next couple days are going to be the longest ever! 

 

 

That may be true, but you got a ton of awesome stuff, too!  Don’t be discouraged at all; even though many didn’t interview last year, we’re in a completely fresh, new cycle this year.

I don’t want to give false hope, but I can objectively say that it seems you have a great research background and other extracurriculars that will factor into the NAQ.  As they say, pursuing medicine is not a race, it’s really a marathon.  God forbid, if you don’t receive good news, you shouldn’t be discouraged at all, ESPECIALLY if this is your first application.  As long as you’re keeping yourself busy with work, volunteering, research, etc., you’re not wasting your time.  All these efforts will help you prepare for medicine and what comes after it.

Don’t lose hope — we don’t know until we know!

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6 hours ago, slslsl said:

This is off topic but I was just reading the thread from 2017/2018 interviews/regrets and I am feeling very discouraged now haha. My GPA is on the lower side (80) and I am a non trad applicant since I am 28. its my first time applying-took me awhile to figure out what I wanted to do with my life lol. 

EC: research (wet lab- bladder cancer and COBRA protein in plants, pollution study that involves interviewing lung cancer patients and smoking cessation counselling, Pre-eclampsia study with south asian women, worked on a paper on John Hopps, project with WHO evaluating maternal deaths in Africa, Other stuff like working at a vet hospital 4 years, volunteer with children with disabilities and horses, volunteer in animal conservation, few other things. 

It seems a lot of people with more extensive experience were rejected last year.... the next couple days are going to be the longest ever! 

 

 

I agree with @Potentiate and @Neurophiliac - you never know what is going to happen! Yes, there are a lot of steps taken to standardize the process, but at the end of the day it’s up to the judgment of the 3 people who score your NAQ. I have definitely started doubting my own application too, especially the more I read these forums and the longer I wait. I’m also a non-traditional applicant (33), so time is precious (my first time applying) and I’m only at 86.7% - so not expecting a stellar AQ. Most of my school was completed back when there were pre-req’s, but that doesn’t mean anything now. Much like you, I am hoping that my NAQ is what sets me apart.

EC: I worked for 7+ years as an assistant branch manager in the banking industry before I went back to school. Finished up my degree and did an extended honours research project at the BC Cancer Agency, where I stayed on for a year as a project manager on a NCI/AACR funded project. I have a lot of community involvement/life experience (since I’m old!): hospital/hospice volunteering, patient advocacy, advisor on patient privacy, guest lecturer, trained chef, volunteer cook at homeless shelter, peer health counsellor, board member on foundation, studied opera since I was 16, travelled to 35+ countries, speak 3 languages.

I have NO IDEA what NAQ that will translate to! As I say, anything is possible and no one is guaranteed anything at this stage in the process. And for those of us who get an interview, the process gets even more mysterious and unpredictable! I’m just trying to make it through next week :) 

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7 hours ago, ATG4B said:

 

I agree with @Potentiate and @Neurophiliac - you never know what is going to happen! Yes, there are a lot of steps taken to standardize the process, but at the end of the day it’s up to the judgment of the 3 people who score your NAQ. I have definitely started doubting my own application too, especially the more I read these forums and the longer I wait. I’m also a non-traditional applicant (33), so time is precious (my first time applying) and I’m only at 86.7% - so not expecting a stellar AQ. Most of my school was completed back when there were pre-req’s, but that doesn’t mean anything now. Much like you, I am hoping that my NAQ is what sets me apart.

EC: I worked for 7+ years as an assistant branch manager in the banking industry before I went back to school. Finished up my degree and did an extended honours research project at the BC Cancer Agency, where I stayed on for a year as a project manager on a NCI/AACR funded project. I have a lot of community involvement/life experience (since I’m old!): hospital/hospice volunteering, patient advocacy, advisor on patient privacy, guest lecturer, trained chef, volunteer cook at homeless shelter, peer health counsellor, board member on foundation, studied opera since I was 16, travelled to 35+ countries, speak 3 languages.

I have NO IDEA what NAQ that will translate to! As I say, anything is possible and no one is guaranteed anything at this stage in the process. And for those of us who get an interview, the process gets even more mysterious and unpredictable! I’m just trying to make it through next week :) 

How do you know 3 people grade our file?

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I read it in one of the FAQ’s on the website. If I remember correctly, three people review your file and then your score is standardized against the mean. The reviewers are given a “benchmark” application to use when they are scoring. 

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25 minutes ago, DoctorArts said:

Anxiety Day 2018 starts tomorrow. I've never wanted an empty inbox so badly in my life! 

Good luck everyone, may the odds be ever in your favour!

Got a final in the morning too! Hoping I don't wake up to an R and then have to go write a test haha. 

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Is the general consensus that if we don’t receive something tomorrow, we are getting an interview? Or are multiple “waves” of rejections likely... Yes, it’s definitely going to be a long day tomorrow! 

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3 minutes ago, ATG4B said:

Is the general consensus that if we don’t receive something tomorrow, we are getting an interview? Or are multiple “waves” of rejections likely... Yes, it’s definitely going to be a long day tomorrow! 

If it will be as it has always been, then yeah all rejections pop into inboxes tomorrow.  BUT, there is no guarantee for this cycle.  The current cycle has been so wild that anything can happen haha!

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1 hour ago, pelican37 said:

Got a final in the morning too! Hoping I don't wake up to an R and then have to go write a test haha. 

Do yourself a favor and don't look at your inbox before you're done your test. :P 

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19 minutes ago, Baljinderthecrow said:

Does anyone know what time the rejections came last year? Were they all out in the morning? Also did the all come at once, or were they spaced out throughout the day? 

I believe they all come at once.  I think last year, it was around 5:15 PM PST, so after their office was closed :/

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