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la marzocco

Ontario Auditor General Report finds Wynne’s ‘free’ tuition scheme far more expensive than promised

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https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2018/12/05/ontario-auditor-general-report-finds-wynnes-free-tuition-scheme-far-more-expensive-than-promised.html

Former Liberal premier Kathleen Wynne’s signature “free” college and university tuition plan could soon cost $2 billion annually — a staggering 50 per cent higher than previous estimates, the provincial auditor general has found. Although the program, which will cost taxpayers about $650 million more a year than the old grant-and-loan system, was designed to help students from low-income families, there is little evidence that that is happening.

“Our government will examine how to restore the financial sustainability of OSAP, so the program is efficient, cost-effective, and helps the students who need it the most.”

I would not be surprised if OSAP gets halved.

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They'll likely remove many of the grants, but the loans will still be in place. A shame, really, as this policy was trying to get more students from underrepresented groups into postsecondary education, and it was doing a decent job of it.

On 12/5/2018 at 9:26 PM, la marzocco said:

Although the program, which will cost taxpayers about $650 million more a year than the old grant-and-loan system, was designed to help students from low-income families, there is little evidence that that is happening.

Bonnie Lysyk is a partisan hack. From her own report (https://files.ontario.ca/pa18_annualreport_cfs_en.pdf, pg 22):

Quote
Postsecondary and training sector expense increased from $9.6 billion in 2013–14 to $11.1 billion in 2017–18, or on average by 3.8 per cent per year. The increase is mainly due to growth in student financial assistance programs and continued funding to support postsecondary institutions, including funding to support capital projects. More students from underrepresented groups are accessing OSAP assistance including:
- 252,000 low-income students, a 19 per cent increase since 2016–17;
- 7,800 Indigenous students, a 34 per cent increase since 2016–17;
- 188,000 mature students, a 31 per cent increase since 2016–17; and
- 14,000 sole support parents, a 17 per cent increase since 2016–17

Not sure how she drew the conclusion that it wasn't working. But it is a good setup for Ford to reduce OSAP for 2019/20.

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On 12/6/2018 at 8:58 PM, Let'sGo1990 said:

surprise surprise. lol.

I am shocked! 

that all being said if you had to spend money on something education is probably the most logical thing to spend it on. That is where your future country and ha that includes the tax base is coming from. 

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Education is important but the problem Canada faces is that the best and the brightest leave our country because salaries and opportunities are just better in the US. Canada takes in some very bright and smart people but they end up leaving for the states and no one can blame them. If you look at salaries outside healthcare, people doing the same job in the US, including the exchange rate, make double what you'd make in Canada. I know more friends in T14 law schools in the states than in Canadian law schools, the majority of my friends in IT work in NYC or SF and a good 25-50% of the people i know in finance are working in the US as well. Some will come back, but many won't. 

Now, this isn't really easy to solve, we have a smaller population which means we end up serving as a bit of a vassal state for the USA, but i think that is more of an issue than trying to get everyone a university degree. It is very common now to see people do a university degree and follow that up with a college degree to get a job. 

 

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4 hours ago, Edict said:

Education is important but the problem Canada faces is that the best and the brightest leave our country because salaries and opportunities are just better in the US. Canada takes in some very bright and smart people but they end up leaving for the states and no one can blame them. If you look at salaries outside healthcare, people doing the same job in the US, including the exchange rate, make double what you'd make in Canada. I know more friends in T14 law schools in the states than in Canadian law schools, the majority of my friends in IT work in NYC or SF and a good 25-50% of the people i know in finance are working in the US as well. Some will come back, but many won't. 

Now, this isn't really easy to solve, we have a smaller population which means we end up serving as a bit of a vassal state for the USA, but i think that is more of an issue than trying to get everyone a university degree. It is very common now to see people do a university degree and follow that up with a college degree to get a job. 

 

I can relate to this and agree 100%. Every single member of my family moved to the states for the higher pay and lower cost of living in the places they settled. Even had insurance plans through their employers that were better coverage than Canada. I've lived in both Canada and the US and personally, I find that there are more opportunities to get a good education and succeed in the states. It's really business friendly, especially in the healthcare sector. The government can try to invest more into education but at the end of the day, the pull factor in the states will cause a movement to the US.

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19 hours ago, VivaColombia said:

I can relate to this and agree 100%. Every single member of my family moved to the states for the higher pay and lower cost of living in the places they settled. Even had insurance plans through their employers that were better coverage than Canada. I've lived in both Canada and the US and personally, I find that there are more opportunities to get a good education and succeed in the states. It's really business friendly, especially in the healthcare sector. The government can try to invest more into education but at the end of the day, the pull factor in the states will cause a movement to the US.

Yeah, Canada is losing big, when working in the US means twice the pay often with equivalent or slightly higher expenses, the pull factor is just too strong. In IT it is so strong that in essence the best go to silicon valley or NYC and the rest stay here. 

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Different strokes for different folks. I would never consider a move to US under any circumstances. Too many guns, too many killings for my taste. Canada is relatively safe and an excellent place to raise a family. And to practice medicine. I won't need any more money than I will make here. And I want to uae my talents and skills for fellow Canadians.

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3 minutes ago, Bambi said:

Different strokes for different folks. I would never consider a move to US under any circumstances. Too many guns, too many killings for my taste. Canada is relatively safe and an excellent place to raise a family. And to practice medicine. I won't need any more money than I will make here. And I want to uae my talents and skills for fellow Canadians.

But 99% are stroking towards the US, its still a real issue in non-heath fields. The US is actually very safe, sure i'm sure the relative risk of living in the US as opposed to Canada and being killed by a gun is high, but the absolute likelihood of being killed by a gun in the US is still incredibly low. 

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Brain drain is real, a lot of my friends who were in CS/software engineering are somewhere in the states right now making bank. The jobs are all embedded in the data ecosystems that the US has championed over time. The quality of the jobs here (and pay) is simply not there. Sure, there seems to be a bigger AI hub in MTL and more investments with Google and MS into Toronto (new offices and new hubs), but building an ecosystem will take time. With constant lost of talent like this, an ecosystem's development will be stalled in its works.

Physicians, I would say a bit more complicated, people tend to graduate older and start working in their early 30s at the earliest as a staff. Family and setting down are things that come to mind at that phase whereas people who did a 4-yr engineering/CS degree can easily afford their 20s in the states. 

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1 hour ago, Bambi said:

Different strokes for different folks. I would never consider a move to US under any circumstances. Too many guns, too many killings for my taste. Canada is relatively safe and an excellent place to raise a family. And to practice medicine. I won't need any more money than I will make here. And I want to uae my talents and skills for fellow Canadians.

It's actually quite safe in most parts of the country. There are definitely certain places you would want to stay away from but otherwise, it's a great place to live and settle down. Canada is not immune to gun violence either, Toronto has seen a sharp rise in gun violence in the past year. But I get what you mean, you can live a happy and good life in Canada.

1 hour ago, la marzocco said:

Brain drain is real, a lot of my friends who were in CS/software engineering are somewhere in the states right now making bank. The jobs are all embedded in the data ecosystems that the US has championed over time. The quality of the jobs here (and pay) is simply not there. Sure, there seems to be a bigger AI hub in MTL and more investments with Google and MS into Toronto (new offices and new hubs), but building an ecosystem will take time. With constant lost of talent like this, an ecosystem's development will be stalled in its works.

Physicians, I would say a bit more complicated, people tend to graduate older and start working in their early 30s at the earliest as a staff. Family and setting down are things that come to mind at that phase whereas people who did a 4-yr engineering/CS degree can easily afford their 20s in the states. 

Imagine being 24 and making 6 figures in the states with minimal debt with a CS degree. With lower taxes and depending on where you settle, lower cost of living, you'd be living quite well. 

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 Although chances of being killed with a gun are still small in US, who wants to live in the society that enshrined guns in constitution. Not to mention living in the society that elected Trump as a president.  But if it is all about money, surely US is better.

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17 hours ago, older said:

 Although chances of being killed with a gun are still small in US, who wants to live in the society that enshrined guns in constitution. Not to mention living in the society that elected Trump as a president.  But if it is all about money, surely US is better.

I don't think it's fair when people generalize/stereotype the US - not everyone in ON supports Ford and the US it's even more like that.  Trump's base is rural white males - he overwhelmingly lost cities like SF (<10% support) and even the popular vote (by several million).  NYC is much closer in character to Montreal  than to Cheyenne, Wyoming.  Guns are one of many problems, but there are positives too and it's good to have an open mind.

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I think the important point from all this is Canada needs to do more to keep people here. It doesn't help that residency spots are cut, CMGs aren't matching, salaries are being cut, taxes are going up and more educational/career opportunities are available south of the border. I doubt this will ever be fixed but its just food for thought. I can only imagine if US gun laws were similar to Canada, we'd have a bigger net movement.

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On 12/8/2018 at 4:22 PM, rmorelan said:

I am shocked! 

that all being said if you had to spend money on something education is probably the most logical thing to spend it on. That is where your future country and ha that includes the tax base is coming from. 

Very true!

 

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