Jump to content
Premed 101 Forums
clever_smart_boy_like_me

U of T medical student convicted of rape

Recommended Posts

A warning to other potential perpetrators! However, such people are opportunistic and only think of their own self-gratification in the arrogant belief that they are immune from prosecution.  

In the mistaken calculation that he would never be caught, he not only showed his true lack of character in his criminal violation of the innocent and vulnerable victim, he lost his future career (a good thing for society and our profession) and should spend time in jail - where the norm is that such offenders are victimized as they have themselves victimized others. And should this happen to him, he will be fully conscious while he is repeatedly violated himself. Whilst I definitely do not advocate such behavior toward him, there is an expression, live by the sword, die by the sword, or, do not do unto others that which you do not wish upon yourself. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/1/2019 at 4:43 AM, clever_smart_boy_like_me said:

It’s such a shame that a person like that got into medical school in the first place. What a crazy system we live in. Doctors should be the people who want to save a life, who genuinely care about other people. The fact that this man raped a woman and just blatantly tried to deny and lie about it....disgusting. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No question it's an awful crime.  Yet I wonder how much of a role did heavy alcohol consumption play - no question the victim couldn't defend herself or consent at all, but I wonder whether the perpetrator would have assaulted her if sober.  Not that in the end it should change anything in the outcome of the case, but maybe as a future preventive note.  

Edit: After reading the judicial decision, it does seem that the assailant was in full conscious control and capable of forming intent - despite drinking at the bar until 2:30 am unlike the unfortunate victim.

https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2018/2018abqb998/2018abqb998.html?resultIndex=1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intoxication_defense

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, tere said:

No question it's an awful crime.  Yet I wonder how much of a role did heavy alcohol consumption play - no question the victim couldn't defend herself or consent at all, but I wonder whether the perpetrator would have assaulted her if sober.  Not that in the end it should change anything in the outcome of the case, but maybe as a future preventive note.  

Edit: After reading the judicial decision, it does seem that the assailant was in full conscious control and capable of forming intent - despite drinking at the bar until 2:30 am unlike the unfortunate victim.

https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2018/2018abqb998/2018abqb998.html?resultIndex=1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intoxication_defense

Personally, I never believe in intoxication defense in cases of rape. While substances may diminish your senses and perception of the world around you, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to sexually assault another even under substance influence. In this case, the perpetrator should never be allowed to practice medicine again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, hamham said:

Personally, I never believe in intoxication defense in cases of rape. While substances may diminish your senses and perception of the world around you, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to sexually assault another even under substance influence. In this case, the perpetrator should never be allowed to practice medicine again.

It seems to have a pretty limited role and isn't allowed in rape cases.  There's no question that the perpetrator will be going to prison and will never become a medical doctor.  

Alcohol is also known to inhibit control, which in moderate quantities might function as a social lubricant but heavy quantities could lead to behaviour that would normally not occur.  I don't see any evidence that this occurred in this case, however.

My concern was more how to prevent such situations in the future - beyond well-known dangers of drinking and driving there's little discussion in society regarding alcohol's potential deleterious effects.  As a harm reduction strategy, I think more awareness of the mental/physical impairments and vulnerability that can occur with consumption might help avoid more situations from emerging.  No question other substances may pose more of a danger to an individual, but I think that strong drinking among all segments of society should also be addressed.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, tere said:

No question it's an awful crime.  Yet I wonder how much of a role did heavy alcohol consumption play - no question the victim couldn't defend herself or consent at all, but I wonder whether the perpetrator would have assaulted her if sober.  Not that in the end it should change anything in the outcome of the case, but maybe as a future preventive note.  

Edit: After reading the judicial decision, it does seem that the assailant was in full conscious control and capable of forming intent - despite drinking at the bar until 2:30 am unlike the unfortunate victim.

https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2018/2018abqb998/2018abqb998.html?resultIndex=1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intoxication_defense

The dude had 4 YEARS to come up with what he was going to say during testimony, but he still messed it up: "there was a boy and a girl pa – lying on the mattress on the floor."
He began to say that they were "passed out." The judge picked up on it and he effectively dug his own grave by saying that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, tere said:

My concern was more how to prevent such situations in the future - beyond well-known dangers of drinking and driving there's little discussion in society regarding alcohol's potential deleterious effects. 

Even in medical school, our social committee was reluctant to organize alcohol-free events, stating that they might not be popular.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/13/2019 at 5:42 AM, sympatheticsystem said:

It’s such a shame that a person like that got into medical school in the first place. What a crazy system we live in. Doctors should be the people who want to save a life, who genuinely care about other people. But each year I see the people who succeed being narcissistic intelligent people with no regard for other people. The fact that this man raped a woman and just blatantly tried to deny and lie about it....disgusting. 

Welcome to medicine. A huge number of physicians are nacsassistic, empathyless, unprofessional a-holes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, sympatheticsystem said:

That’s quite depressing to realize. Shoutout to the compassionate ones who are in it to help people! 

Medicine is by far the worst profession I have ever seen (and I was formerly an engineer who dealt with lots of other professionals and tradespeople). Engineers, accountants, vets, even lawyers, seem to treat each other better and have more empathy for each others problems than physicians do. 

We talk the talk but it's all BS. As a profession we rarely walk the walk. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, NLengr said:

Medicine is by far the worst profession I have ever seen (and I was formerly an engineer who dealt with lots of other professionals and tradespeople). Engineers, accountants, vets, even lawyers, seem to treat each other better and have more empathy for each others problems than physicians do. 

We talk the talk but it's all BS. As a profession we rarely walk the walk. 

i agree. thats why we are so weak politically. we refuse to unite because that would force us to devote time to pursuits away from our immediate selves

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, ilikebirds said:

i love seeing med students get wrecked like this -- only karma lmao

I assume you really meant that you like to see rapists get what they deserve.     Otherwise, why are you wishing to be a med student yourself ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/15/2019 at 7:05 PM, NLengr said:

Medicine is by far the worst profession I have ever seen (and I was formerly an engineer who dealt with lots of other professionals and tradespeople). Engineers, accountants, vets, even lawyers, seem to treat each other better and have more empathy for each others problems than physicians do. 

We talk the talk but it's all BS. As a profession we rarely walk the walk. 

:/, honestly I’ve met some assholes and I’ve been some angels in undergrad and my major is premed specific. Some people are narcissistic assholes but some are very kind and both types of people I’ve seen make it to med school. I was inspired to be a doctor because I have health complications and had to undergo 16 surgeries; all my surgeons were legitimately the nicest people in the world... family medicine on the other hand FROM MY EXPERIENCE hasn’t been filled with the best type of people

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ the same surgeons have likely destroyed their fair share of med students and residents.....on a monthly basis.....if not weekly.....for some of them daily. Its funny that you think FM docs are assholes since usually they are on the other end of the spectrum and actually respect the notion of quality of life (not just for patients). Be careful of extrapolating anecdotes.

Trying to explain why life in medicine is "not what you think" is something I've struggled with for years. My wife, who got in 2 years after me, likes to blame me routinely for not dissuading her from medicine (I did...she didn't listen). I used to participate in medical admissions and I felt bad for some of the candidates. Not because their dreams of medical school may be crushed, but should they get in their genuinely kind-hearted soul will be sent through the meat grinder, broken down, and reformed into......me. The extreme minority (think less than 1/100) go through, keep their humanity intact, and still genuinely enjoy it (we're all good at lying to others and ourselves about how much we "enjoy" it). I'm simultaneously happy for them, but also jealous that I'm not one of them. For the ones that don't get in, I know in the moment their life comes to an end. But I can't help thinking "you've been spared" in my head.

NLengr is right in that doctors are the least compassionate professionals to their own kind. Our first reaction to one of our colleagues struggling is to look at them with disgust and scoff at them for not being resilient enough. "We all are struggling, I'm pulling my weight, why aren't you??" Even for those with "legitimate" issues (which basically means biologic, and not psychiatric/social issues) they are advised to pick a specialty where they won't be a burden on their colleagues or hide it and keep it to themselves as best as possible. Ex: don't go into a demanding surgical specialty if you have chronic, severe IBD. Often times its up to you to fight (sorry, "advocate") for yourself, because no one else really cares that much about you. But in reality even if one wants to help their colleague they really have limited capacity because everyone is similarly trying to keep their head above the sewage water. 

I actually think this is why doctors don't throw their colleagues under the bus and we have some trouble self-regulating as a profession. At the end of the day, we all understand that life is hard enough as is. Why make it harder on your colleague, or particularly for yourself, in trying to report someone.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/13/2019 at 4:12 AM, sympatheticsystem said:

It’s such a shame that a person like that got into medical school in the first place. What a crazy system we live in. Doctors should be the people who want to save a life, who genuinely care about other people. But each year I see the people who succeed being narcissistic intelligent people with no regard for other people. The fact that this man raped a woman and just blatantly tried to deny and lie about it....disgusting. 

On 1/15/2019 at 6:41 PM, sympatheticsystem said:

That’s quite depressing to realize. Shoutout to the compassionate ones who are in it to help people! 

Would you agree it's difficult if not impossible to paint any group with a single brush? Similarly you can't place any profession on a pedestal, really. There are good, bad, virtuous and morally depleted people everywhere. People are complicated. They are not defined by any one thing, whether that be their profession, ethnicity, gender or background. You have to be happy about that, really, but it just means that you have to take the bad with the good.

We can try to hold any group of people or person to a standard, but it cannot be such a shock that our ability to do so isn't robust.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, deeman101 said:

^ the same surgeons have likely destroyed their fair share of med students and residents.....on a monthly basis.....if not weekly.....for some of them daily. Its funny that you think FM docs are assholes since usually they are on the other end of the spectrum and actually respect the notion of quality of life (not just for patients). Be careful of extrapolating anecdotes.

Trying to explain why life in medicine is "not what you think" is something I've struggled with for years. My wife, who got in 2 years after me, likes to blame me routinely for not dissuading her from medicine (I did...she didn't listen). I used to participate in medical admissions and I felt bad for some of the candidates. Not because their dreams of medical school may be crushed, but should they get in their genuinely kind-hearted soul will be sent through the meat grinder, broken down, and reformed into......me. The extreme minority (think less than 1/100) go through, keep their humanity intact, and still genuinely enjoy it (we're all good at lying to others and ourselves about how much we "enjoy" it). I'm simultaneously happy for them, but also jealous that I'm not one of them. For the ones that don't get in, I know in the moment their life comes to an end. But I can't help thinking "you've been spared" in my head.

NLengr is right in that doctors are the least compassionate professionals to their own kind. Our first reaction to one of our colleagues struggling is to look at them with disgust and scoff at them for not being resilient enough. "We all are struggling, I'm pulling my weight, why aren't you??" Even for those with "legitimate" issues (which basically means biologic, and not psychiatric/social issues) they are advised to pick a specialty where they won't be a burden on their colleagues or hide it and keep it to themselves as best as possible. Ex: don't go into a demanding surgical specialty if you have chronic, severe IBD. Often times its up to you to fight (sorry, "advocate") for yourself, because no one else really cares that much about you. But in reality even if one wants to help their colleague they really have limited capacity because everyone is similarly trying to keep their head above the sewage water. 

I actually think this is why doctors don't throw their colleagues under the bus and we have some trouble self-regulating as a profession. At the end of the day, we all understand that life is hard enough as is. Why make it harder on your colleague, or particularly for yourself, in trying to report someone.

 

I know I’m coming at it from a patient perspective but in terms of my experience every family doctor I have doesn’t seem to really care at all. I actually almost died by not being properly diagnosed and referred to a specialist by my family doctor to the point where my mother who knew something was wrong took me to another one who reluctantly referred me to a specialist after my mother’s persuasions. And like I said I have health complications that I needed 16 surgeries for, I won’t go into all the details but it was bad and it’s still bad. Peer wise all my peers are not finished medical school but I have some that are in medical school and they’re still pretty nice people... stressed but very nice; man I hope med school doesn’t ruin them, then again you all probably know more than me as I don’t know how they are in medical school towards other students but they seem to have friends there’s even one girl who was my friend in undergrad who has this whole group of friends she met in medical  and they just seem like normal people. I mean I personally still have the dreams of medical school, but I can imagine some people aren’t the best. Undergrad itself with all the “premeds” can get a little depressing. One person is like a second late to class and everyone is scoffing at them and so many people bad talk each others work ethic. But my engineering friends say that it’s just as bad for them too so i don’t know, good and bad eggs everywhere. The physical disability thing is interesting though; to be honest I don’t disclose my health complications with other students in my year either in the fear that they’ll think I’m not capable even though its pretty visually obvious I have physical disabilities so whatever they can judge me. I didn’t ask for it... what am I supposed to do lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You do you, my friend. Like I said you have to experience it to really know what I'm talking about. Nothing in your undergrad will compare to the culture of medicine. It's is not like being sneered at for being late to class. All clinical trainees have the "happy face" mask. You know how hard life would be for you if you're actually on a clinical rotation and act like a grouch? Also do you know what the med students and residents that commit suicide look like to everyone right up until they're gone? Your beer goggles may still blind you to what I'm saying but for the ones in the field reading this I'm sure this is resonating.

 

Don't disclose any more of your medical situation here on a public forum. Also not wise to become identifiable via personal details while simultaneously dissing half the practicing doctors in Canada. I'm saying you're still seeing this from a perspective of anecdotal experience. I don't doubt you came into contact with family docs that were turds.  But family doctors are the most important doctors in the Canadian health care system. Most specialists basically have to figure out is this their field of medicine or not, and if it is do something (or try to), and if not bounce it to someone else and wash their hands. Family docs simply cannot function like that. You cannot bounce your own patient. You also cannot shotgun refer problems because specialists will down prioritize your referrals or simply refuse to take them eventually. You cannot order all the tests right away like hospital-practicing specialists can. You have to keep all differentials from all fields of medicine in mind. And you have to come to terms with the fact that through sheer statistics you will "miss" something and even though it's humanly impossible to have a 100% hit rate on diagnoses while still being the only specialty to really feel the Choosing Wisely burn, everyone will blame you for every miss from patients to the specialists to even other family docs. And will also burn you for over-calling as well. And you have to do balance the don't-miss vs don't-overcall while being undermined by specialists and patients alike. Sound easy? My wife is a practicing family doc, and let me tell you I could not do her job. 

Also I'm not trying to be mean to you. This is how I treat trainees, which you are hoping to be one day. This is about 50% of what I'd give a med student and 25% for what I'd give to a junior resident. If you were a senior resident.....yea you would get a whole lot more for displaying contempt and lack of knowledge. Welcome to medicine! :)

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, deeman101 said:

You do you, my friend. Like I said you have to experience it to really know what I'm talking about. Nothing in your undergrad will compare to the culture of medicine. It's is not like being sneered at for being late to class. All clinical trainees have the "happy face" mask. You know how hard life would be for you if you're actually on a clinical rotation and act like a grouch? Also do you know what the med students and residents that commit suicide look like to everyone right up until they're gone? Your beer goggles may still blind you to what I'm saying but for the ones in the field reading this I'm sure this is resonating.

 

Don't disclose any more of your medical situation here on a public forum. Also not wise to become identifiable via personal details while simultaneously dissing half the practicing doctors in Canada. I'm saying you're still seeing this from a perspective of anecdotal experience. I don't doubt you came into contact with family docs that were turds.  But family doctors are the most important doctors in the Canadian health care system. Most specialists basically have to figure out is this their field of medicine or not, and if it is do something (or try to), and if not bounce it to someone else and wash their hands. Family docs simply cannot function like that. You cannot bounce your own patient. You also cannot shotgun refer problems because specialists will down prioritize your referrals or simply refuse to take them eventually. You cannot order all the tests right away like hospital-practicing specialists can. You have to keep all differentials from all fields of medicine in mind. And you have to come to terms with the fact that through sheer statistics you will "miss" something and even though it's humanly impossible to have a 100% hit rate on diagnoses while still being the only specialty to really feel the Choosing Wisely burn, everyone will blame you for every miss from patients to the specialists to even other family docs. And will also burn you for over-calling as well. And you have to do balance the don't-miss vs don't-overcall while being undermined by specialists and patients alike. Sound easy? My wife is a practicing family doc, and let me tell you I could not do her job. 

Also I'm not trying to be mean to you. This is how I treat trainees, which you are hoping to be one day. This is about 50% of what I'd give a med student and 25% for what I'd give to a junior resident. If you were a senior resident.....yea you would get a whole lot more for displaying contempt and lack of knowledge. Welcome to medicine! :)

 

 

 

Haha nothing personal. 

I can understand that but like I said I could have died so it’s kind of more serious than a simple misdiagnosis... I was in the position where I could have sued but chose not to - but I honestly might if I feel like the court process is worth it, honestly if it wasn’t for my amazing surgeons I would not have had any interest in medicine; so they can’t be all bad 

 

And I don’t mind- if the family doctor I had who almost killed me is on this site she’ll know exactly who I am and she knows I have a potentially dangerous lawsuit against her, but I doubt she is.... oh well lol

im sure your wife works hard 

so do janitors 

so do most people who have to make a living 

 

To be honest with the logic of “we have to do this but be careful not to do that and find a PERFECT balance” we can make excuses for a lot of people. 

I’ll retract my all family doctor comment, (from my experience would have been more appropriate, there’s probably some amazing ones out there- but my potential death kind of makes me bias) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, sympatheticsystem said:

Haha nothing personal. 

I can understand that but like I said I could have died so it’s kind of more serious than a simple misdiagnosis... I was in the position where I could have sued but chose not to - but I honestly might if I feel like the court process is worth it, honestly if it wasn’t for my amazing surgeons I would not have had any interest in medicine; so they can’t be all bad 

 

And I don’t mind- if the family doctor I had who almost killed me is on this site she’ll know exactly who I am and she knows I have a potentially dangerous lawsuit against her, but I doubt she is.... oh well lol

im sure your wife works hard 

so do janitors 

so do most people who have to make a living 

 

To be honest with the logic of “we have to do this but be careful not to do that and find a PERFECT balance” we can make excuses for a lot of people. 

I’ll retract my all family doctor comment, (from my experience would have been more appropriate, there’s probably some amazing ones out there- but my potential death kind of makes me bias) 

lolol you're wack af.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, sympatheticsystem said:

Haha nothing personal. 

I can understand that but like I said I could have died so it’s kind of more serious than a simple misdiagnosis... I was in the position where I could have sued but chose not to - but I honestly might if I feel like the court process is worth it, honestly if it wasn’t for my amazing surgeons I would not have had any interest in medicine; so they can’t be all bad 

 

And I don’t mind- if the family doctor I had who almost killed me is on this site she’ll know exactly who I am and she knows I have a potentially dangerous lawsuit against her, but I doubt she is.... oh well lol

im sure your wife works hard 

so do janitors 

so do most people who have to make a living 

 

To be honest with the logic of “we have to do this but be careful not to do that and find a PERFECT balance” we can make excuses for a lot of people. 

I’ll retract my all family doctor comment, (from my experience would have been more appropriate, there’s probably some amazing ones out there- but my potential death kind of makes me bias) 

I am an advocate of medical trainee wellness and I do not think it's appropriate to destroy a individual for not knowing better. But if I were to totally shatter someone (and believe me I've been taught by the country's best), it would be for someone displaying the same level of ignorance and hubris as you. As that is the qualities in a physician that actually leads to patient deaths. As you are not a medical trainee yet, it's not really worth my time. 

I'm glad you didn't die. But just try suing your doctor. You'll see how rigged that system is and how strong the CMPA is. There's a reason why physician lawsuits have an astoundingly low conviction rate in Canada. And that's mostly if someone actually dies. But this is now going into the flaws of Canadian health care, which is totally another can of worms. Ironically it's the surgeons that have the most liability from lawsuits because you literally have to physically and intentionally harm someone to really be in hot water. I mean like inscribe your initials on the liver intra-op as an "I wuz here!" Everything else is attributable to the fog of medicine and clinical judgement.

My wife does work hard. Harder than any janitor you or I know. She is literally one of the best doctors I know and has saved hundreds to thousands of patients from morbidity and mortality and is a role model for medical students and residents in any specialty. She works 12+ hours a day and constantly thinks about whether she had done all she can for her patients even after coming home.  She even manages to be less salty than me even though we both are about equally fed up with the BS of medicine. She's finally home from clinic so I'm going to have dinner with her now instead of wasting more time with you. 

Good luck in life!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, deeman101 said:

I am an advocate of medical trainee wellness and I do not think it's appropriate to destroy a individual for not knowing better. But if I were to totally shatter someone (and believe me I've been taught by the country's best), it would be for someone displaying the same level of ignorance and hubris as you. As that is the qualities in a physician that actually leads to patient deaths. As you are not a medical trainee yet, it's not really worth my time. 

I'm glad you didn't die. But just try suing your doctor. You'll see how rigged that system is and how strong the CMPA is. There's a reason why physician lawsuits have an astoundingly low conviction rate in Canada. And that's mostly if someone actually dies. But this is now going into the flaws of Canadian health care, which is totally another can of worms. Ironically it's the surgeons that have the most liability from lawsuits because you literally have to physically and intentionally harm someone to really be in hot water. I mean like inscribe your initials on the liver intra-op as an "I wuz here!" Everything else is attributable to the fog of medicine and clinical judgement.

My wife does work hard. Harder than any janitor you or I know. She is literally one of the best doctors I know and has saved hundreds to thousands of patients from morbidity and mortality and is a role model for medical students and residents in any specialty. She works 12+ hours a day and constantly thinks about whether she had done all she can for her patients even after coming home.  She even manages to be less salty than me even though we both are about equally fed up with the BS of medicine. She's finally home from clinic so I'm going to have dinner with her now instead of wasting more time with you. 

Good luck in life!

Why are you getting so upset, like I am genuinely confused. And yeah I figured as much, + the court process was a really long time and I had an inkling that her status would give her some kind of advantage over me, even though I was really pushed to do it. And I mean you can’t really say that someone you personally works harder than someone you don’t but alright, like I said I’m sure she works very hard. But hey man there are also people who work 3 jobs to make a living... they dont work hard? If we’re talking ignorance that’s a pretty ignorant comment in my personal opinion. But I’m getting confused with stories now, before you said she hates it and blames you for not warning her about it but now she’s less salty than you and does everything for her patients. Oh well, but eh, teach their own; enjoy your dinner man! 

 

And thanks! 

Sorry if I struck a nerve or something because apparently I did 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×