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Returning to Canada After 5-Year MBChB Degree from UK

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Hey guys, 

I had a question regarding a Canadian graduate of a 5-year UK med school returning to Canada for a residency. I've looked high and low on the internet for resources/anecdotal information on Canadian grads returning home for residencies from the UK, but I haven't found much. 

Can anyone comment on the actual process of a Canadian grad from a UK medical school returning to Canada? Obviously one would have to write the MCCQE Part 1/2 etc, but are there differences to returning back home from the UK than, say, completing medical school in Ireland? Is an MBChB degree different in worth than an MD in regards to securing a Canadian residency? 

If anyone could provide info/comment on the process of a Canadian securing a residency in Canada upon completing a 5-year UK med school, it would be appreciated! 

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caveat: I am not an IMG grad, but have friends who have gone the route.

Both UK and Ireland med programs would make you CSA (Canadian studying abroad) but still an IMG, so unlikely to be seen as a difference when applying to Canadian residency spots. You'd be considered IMG.

MBChB is an MD equivalent, so again not a positive or negative for application to CaRMS. It might make a difference if you were to complete postgrad training in UK, Ireland, Australia as you *might* be able to get a generalist certificate (quick google search reveals this BC website, there may be others for other provinces http://practiceinbc.ca/practice-in-bc/International-medical-graduates

In terms of matching in Canada after completing UK med school, your best source is probably this (also found with a quick google search) https://www.carms.ca/match/r-1-main-residency-match/eligibility-criteria/

My non-CMG friends who matched in Canada (one from UK, one from Ireland) were lucky enough to match however are both tied into return of service arrangements, which unfortunately has caused them some issues when trying to apply/accept subspecialty training at other universities in Canada. So, that is something to think about...

Id also suggest scouring the sdm forum and (if it still exists) valuemd forum for additional info.

Best

LL

 

 

 

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Hey! 

So as a UK med grad, you'd be considered an IMG. Only Canadian citizens and permanent residents are eligible to do residency in Canada anyway, but unless you graduate from a Canadian  or US med school, you'll be considered an IMG.

You have two options to come back to Canada.

1) Do a residency in Canada. But like the PP said, this comes with a return of service requirement. Its 5 years and basically you can't do it in a major urban area (they state specifically in each province what that is) - so for example in Ontario its the GTA (Toronto, Mississauga, Brampton, Vaughan...) and Ottawa. But it changes so you need to keep up to date.

2) Do a residency in a CPFC-approved jurisdiction - UK, Ireland, USA and Australia

Things to consider:

- residency in Canada or the US is much faster than the UK. So for example, a standard family med residency in Canada is 2 years. In the UK and Ireland its 5 years.

-  getting residency in the UK/Ireland isn't that easy if you don't have an EU/EEA (European Economic Area) passport. They give preference to students who have European citizenship. You have to taken an additional exam besides the standard SJE and you can only take after graduation, which would put your starting date off by a year. So if you don't have a EU passport, the process will take you 6 years to do a standard FM residency. 

-  if you want to do a residency in Canada, its not just taking the exam. You are expected to do several clinical rotations/electives in Canada during your clerkship years (and as an IMG you need to pay for them and arrange to do them during the school year) and have letters of recommendation from doctors in residency programs that you would like to get into. Currently only about 20% of IMGs match to an Ontario residency program. You need to be exceptional and to increase your chances, you should aim for primary care. 

Here is some further info. 

https://www.cpso.on.ca/Applicant-Information/International-Medical-Graduates/Qualifying-to-Practice-Medicine-in-Ontario?fbclid=IwAR2u6xhFRenhQRTqD5ZmVxYv2SNawCSwl7s79e4Kp3oBR2aunkTXWFPv7XA

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On 2/22/2019 at 8:16 AM, Kasiunut said:

- residency in Canada or the US is much faster than the UK. So for example, a standard family med residency in Canada is 2 years. In the UK and Ireland its 5 years.

5 years at the fastest.  You need to get accepted into a training scheme which isn't automatic like residency after medical school; there can be further delays. 

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having gone through the U.S. medical school route, U.S. residency, and now almost finished my application back to Canada to practice - I recommend in the following order alternatives to UK/Austrlia

1) U.S. M.D. - viable option for residency

2) U.S. D.O. - as above

3) Carribean - U.S. rotations, U.S. curriculum, U.S. residency options as backup

4) UK/Australia - less chance of backup to U.S.

reality is if you go to UK/Australia you already a crappy chance of getting Canadian residency and also crappier chance of getting into U.S. residency as back-up.

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On 8/11/2019 at 11:02 AM, drake19 said:

having gone through the U.S. medical school route, U.S. residency, and now almost finished my application back to Canada to practice - I recommend in the following order alternatives to UK/Austrlia

1) U.S. M.D. - viable option for residency

2) U.S. D.O. - as above

3) Carribean - U.S. rotations, U.S. curriculum, U.S. residency options as backup

4) UK/Australia - less chance of backup to U.S.

reality is if you go to UK/Australia you already a crappy chance of getting Canadian residency and also crappier chance of getting into U.S. residency as back-up.

I'm not knowledgeable at all about family med so I'll leave that to Drake.  I dont think there is a huge number of D.O. grads on the ground in Canada, but that observation is hard for me to support objectively in a quick google search.

Shouldn't there at least be a strong caveat here that the D.O. to US residency to Canadian practice pathway only really works if you're doing Family Medicine?

I can't imagine getting through the RC exams if you're not doing residency in Canada (but, TBF, that may just be me). 

I think subjectively, UK/Ireland CSAs are still doing better than US DOs in the Canadian Specialty matches. 

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in the path

On 8/13/2019 at 12:07 AM, jnuts said:

I'm not knowledgeable at all about family med so I'll leave that to Drake.  I dont think there is a huge number of D.O. grads on the ground in Canada, but that observation is hard for me to support objectively in a quick google search.

Shouldn't there at least be a strong caveat here that the D.O. to US residency to Canadian practice pathway only really works if you're doing Family Medicine?

I can't imagine getting through the RC exams if you're not doing residency in Canada (but, TBF, that may just be me). 

I think subjectively, UK/Ireland CSAs are still doing better than US DOs in the Canadian Specialty matches. 

for the pathway 3 for a US medical school grad - they include D.O. or M.D.

as long as the D.O. graduates from an ACGME accreditated residency (which will be the norm as everything will be ACGME soon) and is board certified and meets the other pathway 3 requirements which are the same for a M.D.

for non-primary care specialites the road block is trying to find a supervisor - i.e. if you are doing pathway 3 as a general surgeon not sure how the supervsiro thing works whereas with family medicine your supervsiro just review your charts, etc.

even if you are D.O. and can't come back to Canada at least you have a job close to the border - prospects are not so good if you have a UK/Australia degree with no residency or job.

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On 8/15/2019 at 9:26 AM, drake19 said:

in the path

for the pathway 3 for a US medical school grad - they include D.O. or M.D.

as long as the D.O. graduates from an ACGME accreditated residency (which will be the norm as everything will be ACGME soon) and is board certified and meets the other pathway 3 requirements which are the same for a M.D.

for non-primary care specialites the road block is trying to find a supervisor - i.e. if you are doing pathway 3 as a general surgeon not sure how the supervsiro thing works whereas with family medicine your supervsiro just review your charts, etc.

even if you are D.O. and can't come back to Canada at least you have a job close to the border - prospects are not so good if you have a UK/Australia degree with no residency or job.

 

Ok, so this is the confusion I'm trying to address because I think it's a little glossed over when statements are made by proponents of the USDO route to Canadian practice.

Correct me if I'm wrong,  but I dont think there is a "pathway 3"for the Royal College specialties.  There's the PER route which requires an existing Canadian licence (i.e. you're enrolled in a Canadian fellowship or are teaching staff before you seek RC certification ) and have already been in independant, board certified, practice in your country of origin for greater than 5 years.  In other words, it's an option that exists for importing established practice foreign academics in their mid careers and beyond who want to work outside of an academic licence.  At least that's the only use I've ever directly witnessed of the PER pathway.  The PER path also still requires you pass the exams

http://www.royalcollege.ca/rcsite/credentials-exams/exam-eligibility/assessment-imgs/practice-eligibility-route-per-specialists-e

As per the College, completion of an ACGME residency alone MAY confer eligibility to write the board/royal college exams. ACGME and/or US board certification is never granted reciprocal recognition in Canada and always requires completion of the full RC exam series.

http://www.royalcollege.ca/rcsite/credentials-exams/exam-eligibility/assessment-imgs/approved-jurisdiction-route-international-medical-graduates-e

As I stated above, passing the RC exams would be difficult, if not impossible, without access to a Canadian training program.  The subject matter and review materials just aren't public. 

Unlike the US, in Canada you cannot practice, independantly or supervised (outside of rare, high profile academic positions) without Royal College certification.

https://www.cpso.on.ca/Physicians/Registration/Requirements

I dont want to start any back-and-forth about the merits of various pathways but I believe the US route is much less viable outside of family practice (unless I'm missing something). I think prospective medical students considering non-traditional educational paths should be aware that USMD and DO might limit repatriation options in their future due to the difficulty US grads have in securing Canadian residencies. 

Completing a US residency as a back-up (provided the goal is to return to Canada) is only practical via family practice.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, blueskyguy said:

Hi all,

I have somewhat specific question that I was hoping to get answered.

I am a Canadian citizen who is currently an M3 at a U.S. medical school. I have interests in pursuing FM. However, I would like to keep as many options open as possible in terms of working in Canada and/or the U.S. after all of my training.

If I were to finish med school in the U.S., and then come back to Canada and complete a standard 2-year FM residency, would I be able to work in both Canada and the U.S. afterwards? How does this process work? Would I be restricted in any way?

What if I were to complete a 3 year U.S. FM residency instead?

Any clarifications on these points would be much appreciated. I look forward to hearing from you all!

 

I'm not knowlegable at all about how Royal College specialists work

But just for family medicine if you wanted to bypass the supervision/pathway 3 as well as the CFPC exam, and go straight to independent practice certificate...this is reply from CPSO

there is reciprocity between CFPC and ABFM-Fam med. The ABFM exam is much easier, no OSCE just 200-300 multiple choice questions. WE get tons of practice with 10-20 years worth of exam questions.

 

In your review of qualifications, you indicate that you wish to apply for an Independent Practice certificate of registration. For your information, the College’s Council has approved a policy that provides a route to registration in Ontario for eligible applicants who have obtained CFPC certification without examination  under the CFPC Alternative Route to Certification or CFPC Recognition of Jurisdictions Outside of Canada (US, UK Ireland and Australia). The prerequisite qualifications to apply under the Policy for the Recognition of Certification without Examination issued by the CFPC are:

  1. CFPC certification without examination, on the basis of completion of residency training in family medicine and the certification exam in a jurisdiction approved by the College of Family Physicians of Canada; 
  2. passed the MCCQE Parts 1 and 2

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