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2019 CaRMS unfilled spots

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5 hours ago, Comprehensible said:

Is there any chance the reason fewer spots are left over is because more people matched in the first round?

I think this is more of an important discussion that CMG vs IMG. Do you guys think that we will see high match rates this year, since there is less unfilled spots after round one. If the match rate was high this year does that means alot went for relatively lower competitive specialties, probably in primary care like: FM, peds and psych. Family medicine was more competitive this year than it was ever before. Looks like government is getting what it wants with more incoming residents in these specialties versus surgical specialties. If this is the case, this would set the tone for future matches, especially if competitiveness for surgical specialties stays the same.

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18 minutes ago, tavenan said:

I'm not the one that's not staying on this planet for suggesting we prioritize Canadians in Canada. This whole discussion has been shifted in this way to make perfectly common sense proposals seem radical. No, if you're arguing that CMG's and IMG's who weren't good enough to attend medical school in Canada and left the country should be prioritized over perfectly qualified Canadian medical students, then you're the one not living in this planet. Again, I have no interest in helping rich well connected students use their connections and money to take spots from Canadians in Canada. It's like throwing Canadian tax payer money down the well. 

And unless you think there has been a serious degradation in the quality of Canadian medical school graduates in the past 10 years, you have to agree that the quality of the student pool is not the problem, as this issue of students going unmatched was basically nonexistent a decade ago. 

There's no evidence that beyond rare anecdotes, what you say actually happens. For an IMG to match, they need to score around the 80-95th percentiles on a of couple board exams. Otherwise, you have no shot. So what are you talking about exactly?

And yeah man life has gotten harder. It isn't just medicine. Try to open a business or become a dentist or engineer. See how it goes. 

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14 minutes ago, medigeek said:

There's no evidence that beyond rare anecdotes, what you say actually happens. For an IMG to match, they need to score around the 80-95th percentiles on a of couple board exams. Otherwise, you have no shot. So what are you talking about exactly?

And yeah man life has gotten harder. It isn't just medicine. Try to open a business or become a dentist or engineer. See how it goes. 

Lol come on now... becoming an engineer? I can count so many people who are making 70k+ as engineers straight out of undergrad.

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3 minutes ago, Cuttlefish said:

Lol come on now... becoming an engineer? I can count so many people who are making 70k+ as engineers straight out of undergrad.

Yeah and you used to get that job right in the GTA. Many people now can't get favourable jobs or have to move around. Things have just gotten more difficult in every sector. And "count so many people" is meaningless. We can also count so many people who matched into competitive fields at UofT today. How about we count the ones who didnt?

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1 minute ago, medigeek said:

Yeah and you used to get that job right in the GTA. Many people now can't get favourable jobs or have to move around. Things have just gotten more difficult in every sector. And "count so many people" is meaningless. We can also count so many people who matched into competitive fields at UofT today. How about we count the ones who didnt?

Well it’s hard to deny it when you see a large number of your university’s engineering graduating class getting pretty good jobs straight out of undergrad, making more than a resident would (assuming you do match).

And sure, let’s count it since viewing it that way is “meaningless”. Care to provide some numbers on how engineering grads are faring in their job prospects? I wasn’t alive 30 years ago, so I can’t  speak on that from personal experience. Just calling it as I see it.

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5 minutes ago, Cuttlefish said:

Well it’s hard to deny it when you see a large number of your university’s engineering graduating class getting pretty good jobs straight out of undergrad, making more than a resident would (assuming you do match).

And sure, let’s count it since viewing it that way is “meaningless”. Care to provide some numbers on how engineering grads are faring in their job prospects? I wasn’t alive 30 years ago, so I can’t  speak on that from personal experience. Just calling it as I see it.

https://www.ediweekly.com/ontario-engineers-facing-crisis-employment/

 

OSPE-Ontario-Society-Professional-Engineers-employment-education-EDIWeekly

 

Oh look,  who knew medicine blows away almost every other profession in terms of employment (and income). 

 

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16 minutes ago, medigeek said:

https://www.ediweekly.com/ontario-engineers-facing-crisis-employment/

 

OSPE-Ontario-Society-Professional-Engineers-employment-education-EDIWeekly

 

Oh look,  who knew medicine blows away almost every other profession in terms of employment (and income). 

 

Dont you think the numbers are off just looking at it? Why would 29% of nurses be unemployed? hy would 24% of PTs be unemployed. Literally doesnt make any sense. There is no way on earth that 29% of nurses are unemployed or 24% of PTs are unemployed in Canada.    

NOW, if those numbers include foreign PRs with unapproved educational training in nursing and PT, THEN it may make a bit more sense.

Ergo, that engineering number likely contains thousands and thousands of foreign engineering credentials of PRs that will never be able to go through EIT and become practicing professional engineers.  Most big construction companies have a plethora of foreign trained engineers from asia who are not working as engineers. BUT it was a way for them to immigrate to Canada for a better life etc. 

Shake your head ha.

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4 minutes ago, JohnGrisham said:

Dont you think the numbers are off just looking at it? Why would 29% of nurses be unemployed? hy would 24% of PTs be unemployed. Literally doesnt make any sense. There is no way on earth that 29% of nurses are unemployed or 24% of PTs are unemployed in Canada.    

NOW, if those numbers include foreign PRs with unapproved educational training in nursing and PT, THEN it may make a bit more sense.

Ergo, that engineering number likely contains thousands and thousands of foreign engineering credentials of PRs that will never be able to go through EIT and become practicing professional engineers.  Most big construction companies have a plethora of foreign trained engineers from asia who are not working as engineers. BUT it was a way for them to immigrate to Canada for a better life etc. 

Shake your head ha.

And doesn't what you just said + the data give us a relative perspective to the IMG medicine situation as a whole? That's part of the point. 

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1 minute ago, medigeek said:

And doesn't what you just said + the data give us a relative perspective to the IMG medicine situation as a whole? That's part of the point. 

The point you were trying to make 2 posts earlier was that becoming an engineer and working in the city is extremely difficult, and you provided a link to a table that shows a 30% employment rate of engineering vs 81% in medicine,   presumably trying to dramatize how difficult getting a job as an engineer is.

The gap is nowhere in reality near the 50% gap you're providing with the evidence. Its definitely not easy to get a job as an engineer, for sure, but the true employment rate when you remove confounders of immigrants who would never work in this country under the professional designation, is not as bleak as its being framed in the data.  

I'm not weighing in on the IMG point at all, to be clear, just the data points on difficulty getting work as an engineer :)

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1 minute ago, JohnGrisham said:

The point you were trying to make 2 posts earlier was that becoming an engineer and working in the city is extremely difficult, and you provided a link to a table that shows a 30% employment rate of engineering vs 81% in medicine,   presumably trying to dramatize how difficult getting a job as an engineer is.

The gap is nowhere in reality near the 50% gap you're providing with the evidence. Its definitely not easy to get a job as an engineer, for sure, but the true employment rate when you remove confounders of immigrants who would never work in this country under the professional designation, is not as bleak as its being framed in the data.  

I'm not weighing in on the IMG point at all, to be clear, just the data points on difficulty getting work as an engineer :)

Tbh, it was just the first thing that popped up on Google. There are many more links.

Of course getting a job as an engineer isn't that hard but you can be underemployed, or forced to move away. I was saying that it's gotten harder for every profession in the west. 

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5 hours ago, medigeek said:

Tbh, it was just the first thing that popped up on Google. There are many more links.

Of course getting a job as an engineer isn't that hard but you can be underemployed, or forced to move away. I was saying that it's gotten harder for every profession in the west. 

Tell that to all the software engineer guys who gets a high paying job super easily

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There are 10x more CMG spots than there are IMG spots in the first round. I think instead of degrading the character and worth of IMG’s we should focus on the initial intention of this forum topic, which was to support those going through second iteration. Many of which will be IMG’s despite there only be 6/209 spots designated solely for IMG’s. 

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5 hours ago, peace2014 said:

Tell that to all the software engineer guys who gets a high paying job super easily

It's easy to look at the great cases in other fields and compare them to the less well off cases in medicine. Grass always seem greener, never really is. 

4 hours ago, sWOMEN said:

Anyone curious as to the public's perception of CMG vs IMG in the match (if we actually explained to them how it works)?

Whenever media articles get posted on this topic, the comments are hardcore in favour of IMGs. Can't count the number of times I read about how we should stop having foreign doctors drive taxis and immediately give them a job as a physician. A lot of people also think that those foreigners would be much better physicians than Canadian trained ones. So yeah the public nor the courts is buying it.

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18 minutes ago, medigeek said:

It's easy to look at the great cases in other fields and compare them to the less well off cases in medicine. Grass always seem greener, never really is. 

Whenever media articles get posted on this topic, the comments are hardcore in favour of IMGs. Can't count the number of times I read about how we should stop having foreign doctors drive taxis and immediately give them a job as a physician. A lot of people also think that those foreigners would be much better physicians than Canadian trained ones. So yeah the public nor the courts is buying it.

I find the public usually doesn't understand the difference between IMG and CMG, especially when its a Canadian who went international for med. They're usually in favour of whoever because "we need doctors".

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1 minute ago, Chels1267 said:

I find the public usually doesn't understand the difference between IMG and CMG, especially when its a Canadian who went international for med. They're usually in favour of whoever because "we need doctors".

The public doesn't even know what residency is. Educating them on this whole issue is literally impossible. 

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12 hours ago, schpurp88 said:

I think this is more of an important discussion that CMG vs IMG. Do you guys think that we will see high match rates this year, since there is less unfilled spots after round one. If the match rate was high this year does that means alot went for relatively lower competitive specialties, probably in primary care like: FM, peds and psych. Family medicine was more competitive this year than it was ever before. Looks like government is getting what it wants with more incoming residents in these specialties versus surgical specialties. If this is the case, this would set the tone for future matches, especially if competitiveness for surgical specialties stays the same.

Match rate at my school was quite a bit higher this year as compared to last year (95% vs like 89%) and having talked to a bunch of classmates, it does seem like more of us applied to family, psych, etc. and a lot of people backing up with family too. Not sure about other schools, but that may be why there's fewer spots left. We'll find out when the data becomes available. 

I feel for the people not matching first round - it's crazy how few spots there are in desirable cities. Even fam med in Quebec - no spots in the major Quebec cities (i.e. Montreal, QC, and Sherbrooke) and pretty much all - except Ottawa and Calgary - are rural. :O  

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2 minutes ago, Heisencat said:

Match rate at my school was quite a bit higher this year as compared to last year (95% vs like 89%) and having talked to a bunch of classmates, it does seem like more of us applied to family, psych, etc. and a lot of people backing up with family too. Not sure about other schools, but that may be why there's fewer spots left. We'll find out when the data becomes available. 

I feel for the people not matching first round - it's crazy how few spots there are in desirable cities. Even fam med in Quebec - no spots in the major Quebec cities (i.e. Montreal, QC, and Sherbrooke) and pretty much all - except Ottawa and Calgary - are rural. :O  

That's really interesting. I agree we will see when the data comes out but I expect all time high match rates this year. If going unmatched was a disaster in previous years it's an absolute deathwish for future years, because of the high match rates in the first round and very little spots left in the second round. I lot more people backing up with fam med and more going into peds and psych and IM after being dissuaded from surgery. This could be an anomaly but I don't think so, I mean a lot of people are going into those primary care because of lack of jobs in surgery, low match rates, etc.. If that doesn't in the future it is hard to see the pendulum swing back the other way. 

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24 minutes ago, medigeek said:

The public doesn't even know what residency is. Educating them on this whole issue is literally impossible. 

True. Family/friends keep asking me if I'm done "Dr School" and it I can start working now +/- can I take shifts in family clinics/ER now. lol.

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I wonder if people basically did more of what most schools have been asking them to do (mostly out of fear) - apply to everything ha. 

That could as Heisencat suggests explaining the results somewhat. On one hand that might mean that more people match although you have to wonder how many are getting what they want.

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2 minutes ago, PhD2MD said:

True. Family/friends keep asking me if I'm done "Dr School" and it I can start working now +/- can I take shifts in family clinics/ER now. lol.

they really don't - it is easier to tell them you are working in a hospital now ha. 

Also of note - no one will understand the royal college study year unless they did it or in rare cases something extremely close. The closest I have come to describing it is it is just like studying full force for finals except it goes on for 12 months ha. I mean this because when you vanish during that year they won't understand why. 

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1 minute ago, rmorelan said:

I wonder if people basically did more of what most schools have been asking them to do (mostly out of fear) - apply to everything ha. 

That could as Heisencat suggests explaining the results somewhat. On one hand that might mean that more people match although you have to wonder how many are getting what they want.

idk its either that or they are going into or backing up with primary care residencies like IM, peds, fm, or even neurology. i think its more likely that they are just going for those specialties rather than applying to everything. I think this because backing up is getting harder, I mean it was hard to backup with family med this year. If more people are going for those specialties then it makes it harder for people to back up with them, therefore harder to apply to everything. if this isn't happening right now then it will definitely happen the future. The take away from this match shouldn't be the match is brutal, or cmg vs img, writing usmles but that medicine is getting less varied. People are going more towards primary care specialties and are being dissuaded from doing surgery and inpatient specialties. In the future or even during this match I'm expecting like 80% or more  people to go into peds and IM and fm and psych.

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For those who went unmatched (and are still reading this thread despite the directions the conversation has turned), please reach out to any and all supports that are available to you, when you're in the mindset to do so.

This year's 2nd round is different than in previous years, which provides both some challenges as well as some opportunities. For CMGs, there are now a lot of dedicated CMG spots in the 2nd round, many of which I know would have typically been filled by IMGs in the 2nd round in the past. This means a CMG flexible about location and/or specialty probably has a much better chance of matching in the 2nd round than in previous years, but as others have noted, the unfilled spots are mostly in less competitive locations or specialties. These locations and specialties are typically less competitive for valid reasons, but can still be excellent fits for many students. Please take the time to look into as many of these as possible before writing them off as poor options, especially for FM residencies that are a (relatively) short 2 years in duration. Many CMGs who look at their options, their preferences, and weigh the pros and cons will choose to wait until next year rather than try to match in the 2nd round to an available spot, and that can be the right choice in many cases. Still, it's worth exploring as many of the available 2nd round spots as possible, especially with the reduced competition for CMG spots this year.

Anyone who's unmatched and needs to write out their frustrations or bounce ideas off someone, my inbox's open. There are many paths forward from going unmatched, and while none of them perfect, yesterday's result should never be viewed as a dead-end.

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