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2019 CaRMS unfilled spots

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1 hour ago, surgeontobe said:

Agree

I think overall it is better this year. Maybe it is because more people choose FM (especially in Quebec where there a 41 spots left compared to around 75 last year) and other less competitve disciplines. 

I think next year will be interresting as the number of unmatched applicants was higher year after year and this year there are 174 compared to 222 last year! That’s a huge difference!! (But still not perfect.!)

I think the maintained streaming in Ontario and Alberta schools in 2nd iteration will be further benefit to CMGs so the overall R1 match should be better than last year. But let's wait and see!

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9 hours ago, Edict said:

In terms of hours, a surgical residency is probably the same workload as ibanking in terms of hours worked in the office. consulting is probably equivalent to a medical residency.  

Each side works different kinds of hours, but I think surgical residents likely work as harder if you factor in the disturbed sleep cycles, as well as studying, reading and research. The main benefit is that your job is rather stable which is something I do think we overlook. The very fact that you can tell yourself that you will be employed for the next 5 years or more is actually something we probably undervalue as doctors. 

 

I Bankers have horrible sleep cycles too. Depending on the companies they analyze and where they are based, they may have to watch stock markets in several different countries/time zones, particularly during earnings seasons (eg. Hong Kong, New York, London, Singapore). The overtime is insane. Always rushing to write reports/tweaking models till late at night past 10/11pm. After work, you also have to go drink with clients to build relationships, hangout with colleagues you don’t like, and that could last until 2 or 3am—destroying your liver in the process. Then you’re expected to start work again at 6am feeling like crap and hungover. But you can’t show it at work. You’re still expected to have perfect grooming and look sharp. There are many many days without sleep. 

And you’re totally right about the no  job stability part. You can mess up at any moment and your boss can fire you within a blink of an eye. Or if the stock market crashes, the first they let go is the junior banker. 

One big positive for bankers is that they live in downtown urban areas in big cities.

Therefore, I think both surgeons and I bankers work extremely hard. Surgeons care for people but I bankers care for money. If you’re a person who cares for people but works in i banking then it could be absolutely soul crushing and demoralizing.

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20 hours ago, shematoma said:

Looking at those Ottawa spots, they look kind of suspicious. 19 FM (English speaking) spots open is basically half of their 38 spot total quota in the first round. What's going on? Are they just being extra picky this year or is there some other motive? Saving the spots for after second iteration and giving them away in the opaque 'post match process's?

Knowing uOttawa, it's got to be something shady.

I'm guessing it's got something to do with this super sketchy policy of theirs:

Process for vacant MOHLTC funded residency positions

Application

From time to time, the Ministry of Health and Long Term Care (MOHLTC) funded residency positions become vacant due to either transfer outside of the University of Ottawa, resignation, or the dismissal of a resident. Program Directors may fill the position with an admissible resident at the same level of training within the same specialty training program (including Family Medicine) as the vacant position within three (3) months of the position becoming vacant.

If a position is not filled within the three (3) month period, it is released to the Vice-Dean of Postgraduate Medical Education (PGME), who has the discretion to fill it with a transfer request from an admissible resident - as defined below - who is currently enrolled in any of the accredited residency programs (i.e. any CMG or IMG enrolled in any program anywhere in Canada or USA).

Requirements

Admissible residents must be either:

  1. Canadian Medical Graduates (CMG); or
  2. International Medical Graduates (IMG) with Canadian citizenship or permanent resident status, currently registered in a postgraduate residency program in Canada or the USA.

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13 hours ago, JohnGrisham said:

Don't worry, there are plenty of Canadian attendings that don't have much cultural competence either.  Sometimes we overblow the lack of cultural competence that some FMGs may have. The ones who become competitive enough to even apply generally are fine.  Sure you get a sexist, dismissive one every once in a while...but we have plenty of those Canadian born too. 

Don't I know it. All the asshole attendings who harassed me (including sexually) were CMGs, trained in Canada, as are the leadership that is still trying to cover it up. Most were recent grads, too.

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5 minutes ago, ana_safavi said:

Don't I know it. All the asshole attendings who harassed me (including sexually) were CMGs, trained in Canada, as are the leadership that is still trying to cover it up. Most were recent grads, too.

 

9 minutes ago, ana_safavi said:

LOL. If anyone lacks cultural competence, it's all the racist CMGs who discriminate against foreign-born doctors.

Are you a social activist? I notice your signature block with #metoo and you seem to be very vocal in these social justice matters.

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10 minutes ago, getrich said:

 

Are you a social activist? I notice your signature block with #metoo and you seem to be very vocal in these social justice matters.

I'm not fighting for "social" justice. I'm fighting for LEGAL justice. By suing med schools and the corrupt institutions that collude with them into the ground. And then, I'm going to change the law, so that they can't get away with it ever again.

Anyway, sorry for derailing. If anyone wants advice, or just to vent about CaRMS, my DMs, as always, are open, and my cell is 519-859-9334.

Stay strong, lovelies! <3

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13 hours ago, Dreamer10 said:

I believe that we as doctors should pretty much understand the perspective of others and how they live their experiences.

It is correct to defend for CMG positions but never should we do that by discrediting other people and claiming to have a privillage upon other human beings. You have no idea what others go through. It is easy to judge and be rude.

Some of my friends are IMG ( immigrants not CSA) and they suffer alot. There are no spots for them and they are truely excellent candidates and have tons of experience and research ! Yet ending up as working in a cornerstore or a taxi driver. They have families and it is extremely difficult to work that way after being honoured doctors in their countries. If you look at the stats, like 750 candidates applied for 10 positions available in IM at u o t !!

Just imagine the brutal and unimaginable and fierce competition ! Like seriously how they do it !! 

So enough please by spreading judgements and poor comments of who is better and who is not ! It is so sick !!

We have problems in our system and yes we need more spots and funding !

And congrats to those who matched and best of luck to those who didn't :)

 

It's not a matter of who's better and who is not, it's a matter of having common sense policies. We are either a country or we are not, being Canadian has to mean something. It is pure madness to give any spots to IMG's when we have overly qualified Canadian graduates going unmatched. Being Canadian has to give you an advantage as our system is funded by Canadian tax dollars. No other country in the world treats their medical graduates this way. 

 

If being a doctor in Canada is so hard for IMG's, that should be something they consider in terms of whether they want to stay in their country or immigrate to Canada. As a country we have to give preference to our own citizens. I don't know how a rational person can accept a single IMG taking a residency spot when we have literally hundreds of excellent Canadian graduates going unmatched. I challenge you to find a single other first world country that faces this issue.

 

Maybe you can't see this problem clearly because, as you say, some of your friends and supervisor might be IMG's. I'm sorry that IMG's are suffering, but I would rather help Canadians first and then see what's left for IMG's. If we can fill every single residency spot in Canada with a excellent CMG, which I believe we can, then that's what we should do. 

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2 hours ago, ana_safavi said:

LOL. If anyone lacks cultural competence, it's all the racist CMGs who discriminate against foreign-born doctors.

Are you suggesting me, an immigrant of colour, is racist? trollololol

2 hours ago, ana_safavi said:

Don't I know it. All the asshole attendings who harassed me (including sexually) were CMGs, trained in Canada, as are the leadership that is still trying to cover it up. Most were recent grads, too.

Yeah you just diverted into a whole different realm. I was talking about social norms and even the style of practice. Ex. IMGs may have a very long standing habit of giving antibiotics to every single viral infection in their home country. That habit isn't breaking over here. 

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9 minutes ago, medigeek said:

Are you suggesting me, an immigrant of colour, is racist? trollololol

Yeah you just diverted into a whole different realm. I was talking about social norms and even the style of practice. Ex. IMGs may have a very long standing habit of giving antibiotics to every single viral infection in their home country. That habit isn't breaking over here. 

I don't think that IMGs are responsible for having a long-standing habit of prescribing antibiotics as much as it is a global phenomenon of poor culture of historical practice and clinical decision making by health practitioners in the past. Then again, this applies ubiquitously for every single practitioner if we go down this road lol. 

 

So back to the original point of this thread: unfilled spots eh? Lol

Good luck to everyone! Hope something pans out for all of us, one way or another. 

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16 hours ago, medigeek said:

I wouldn't say it's the teaching that's necessarily the issue but rather just not having grown up here. And the style of medical practice overseas (including europe) is not always up to par with north america. An attending of 10 years exp overseas may not necessarily bring good practice habits.

You are explicitly suggesting that we should discriminate against applicants based on their country of origin. This is not only, by definition, racism, it's also against the Ontario Human Rights Code. Favouring CSA applicants over other IMGs is LITERALLY AGAINST THE LAW. Because it is DISCRIMINATION BASED ON RACE.

So yeah, at the minimum, I'd say you lack cultural competence. :rolleyes:

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15 minutes ago, ana_safavi said:

You are explicitly suggesting that we should discriminate against applicants based on their country of origin. This is not only, by definition, racism, it's also against the Ontario Human Rights Code. Favouring CSA applicants over other IMGs is LITERALLY AGAINST THE LAW. Because it is DISCRIMINATION BASED ON RACE.

So yeah, at the minimum, I'd say you lack cultural competence. :rolleyes:

Not at all, you do it via accreditation as I suggested. You can recognize schools that did clinical training in USA (the carib schools) and perhaps some of the European boards of education. I think you missed the whole premise of this, which is where you did clinical training to begin with. A lot of clinicals in foreign countries are pure shadowing. Even residency in many overseas countries is glorified shadowing. Hence why we don't just let anyone practice. 

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52 minutes ago, tavenan said:

It's not a matter of who's better and who is not, it's a matter of having common sense policies. We are either a country or we are not, being Canadian has to mean something. It is pure madness to give any spots to IMG's when we have overly qualified Canadian graduates going unmatched. Being Canadian has to give you an advantage as our system is funded by Canadian tax dollars. No other country in the world treats their medical graduates this way. 

 

If being a doctor in Canada is so hard for IMG's, that should be something they consider in terms of whether they want to stay in their country or immigrate to Canada. As a country we have to give preference to our own citizens. I don't know how a rational person can accept a single IMG taking a residency spot when we have literally hundreds of excellent Canadian graduates going unmatched. I challenge you to find a single other first world country that faces this issue.

 

Maybe you can't see this problem clearly because, as you say, some of your friends and supervisor might be IMG's. I'm sorry that IMG's are suffering, but I would rather help Canadians first and then see what's left for IMG's. If we can fill every single residency spot in Canada with a excellent CMG, which I believe we can, then that's what we should do. 

The thing is , people like you tend to project problems and blame others and be blind to the real cause.

Wow like seriously now the only cause ppl go unmatched is because of IMG spots ?? There are more spots available in total than the number of CMG every year, so theoritically there should be no CMG left Mr. intelligent !

And not all IMG immigrate here, some came because they were maybe married to a canadian or a refugee or i dont know !

You have to seek and find the real problem not impose it on other ppl! And try to sound as you are caring !

And btw this logic of yours ! Or really ! How about you extend it to other issues in life !? Like maybe we only offer cancer medications for Canadians not immigrants ! Or we give them the left over !? Is that even a logical thought process you claim you have ?

And all countries have IMGs or whatever, look in the USA and germany and UK

You want ppl to understand your perspective but you are too blind or arrogant to understand others' perspective !

Good luck in your stunning career ahead of you !

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10 minutes ago, Dreamer10 said:

The thing is , people like you tend to project problems and blame others and be blind to the real cause.

Wow like seriously now the only cause ppl go unmatched is because of IMG spots ?? There are more spots available in total than the number of CMG every year, so theoritically there should be no CMG left Mr. intelligent !

And not all IMG immigrate here, some came because they were maybe married to a canadian or a refugee or i dont know !

You have to seek and find the real problem not impose it on other ppl! And try to sound as you are caring !

And btw this logic of yours ! Or really ! How about you extend it to other issues in life !? Like maybe we only offer cancer medications for Canadians not immigrants ! Or we give them the left over !? Is that even a logical thought process you claim you have ?

And all countries have IMGs or whatever, look in the USA and germany and UK

You want ppl to understand your perspective but you are too blind or arrogant to understand others' perspective !

Good luck in your stunning career ahead of you !

Quote

Wow like seriously now the only cause ppl go unmatched is because of IMG spots ??

Never said this

 

Quote

There are more spots available in total than the number of CMG every year, so theoritically there should be no CMG left Mr. intelligent !

?? Take a deep breath and type coherent sentences please. 

 

Quote

And not all IMG immigrate here, some came because they were maybe married to a canadian or a refugee or i dont know !

ok. Still doesn't change the fact that we should be prioritizing Canadian graduates who were trained in Canada. 

 

Quote

Like maybe we only offer cancer medications for Canadians not immigrants !

Being a Canadian medical doctor is not something that everyone in the world is entitled to. Receiving adequate health care is something that everyone in Canada should be entitled to. These two things are not the same. 

 

Quote

And all countries have IMGs or whatever, look in the USA and germany and UK

Ya, I happen to have family in the UK going through the medical education system. Try going to a UK medical school as a Canadian and then trying to practice in the UK. See how that works out for you. 

 

Quote

Good luck in your stunning career ahead of you !

Thank you, I offer you the same wishes. Canadian tax dollars in the form of residency spots should be allocated to Canadian trained medical students first. Not a single IMG should be receiving residency spots when we have qualified CMG's going unmatched. I'm sorry if this common sense sentence seems odd to you. 

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17 minutes ago, polarbear89 said:

I know this thread has veered into another topic but will most of these second iteration spots be filled or are some of them listed as a formality? 

I've been previously told that programs are "not obligated" to fill unmatched spots. 

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8 minutes ago, tavenan said:

Never said this

 

?? Take a deep breath and type coherent sentences please. 

 

ok. Still doesn't change the fact that we should be prioritizing Canadian graduates who were trained in Canada. 

 

Being a Canadian medical doctor is not something that everyone in the world is entitled to. Receiving adequate health care is something that everyone in Canada should be entitled to. These two things are not the same. 

 

Ya, I happen to have family in the UK going through the medical education system. Try going to a UK medical school as a Canadian and then trying to practice in the UK. See how that works out for you. 

 

Thank you, I offer you the same wishes. Canadian tax dollars in the form of residency spots should be allocated to Canadian trained medical students first. Not a single IMG should be receiving residency spots when we have qualified CMG's going unmatched. I'm sorry if this common sense sentence seems odd to you. 

Thank you for the wishes thu I am sorry if you have a closed mindset and unable to apprehend the bigger picture.

I just feel so sick when I start hearing that every problem we have is due to immigrants like other countries do.

We can have a evidence based discussion with intension to find solutions not to sound superior and arrogant !

Good luck again and pass a good day !

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4 minutes ago, clerkshipgunner said:

I've been previously told that programs are "not obligated" to fill unmatched spots. 

What's the deal with the ministry of health funded spots? Are they filling those with transfers or residents from the US, like the description suggested in this thread?

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5 minutes ago, Dreamer10 said:

Thank you for the wishes thu I am sorry if you have a closed mindset and unable to apprehend the bigger picture.

I just feel so sick when I start hearing that every problem we have is due to immigrants like other countries do.

We can have a evidence based discussion with intension to find solutions not to sound superior and arrogant !

Good luck again and pass a good day !

Likewise to you sir. Please don't make assumptions about people, I myself am an immigrant, and it's not like I came here when I was an infant, I've spent more time in Iran than I have in Canada. Don't mistake my position on this very specific topic for a general dislike of immigrants. 

I still would prioritize Canadian trained medical students.

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5 hours ago, la marzocco said:

Poor McGill :( 

Yeah seriously....doesn't this amount to about 19% of the class going unmatched? That is worrisome for a Canadian medical school.

1 hour ago, tavenan said:

It's not a matter of who's better and who is not, it's a matter of having common sense policies. We are either a country or we are not, being Canadian has to mean something. It is pure madness to give any spots to IMG's when we have overly qualified Canadian graduates going unmatched. Being Canadian has to give you an advantage as our system is funded by Canadian tax dollars. No other country in the world treats their medical graduates this way. 

 

If being a doctor in Canada is so hard for IMG's, that should be something they consider in terms of whether they want to stay in their country or immigrate to Canada. As a country we have to give preference to our own citizens. I don't know how a rational person can accept a single IMG taking a residency spot when we have literally hundreds of excellent Canadian graduates going unmatched. I challenge you to find a single other first world country that faces this issue.

 

Maybe you can't see this problem clearly because, as you say, some of your friends and supervisor might be IMG's. I'm sorry that IMG's are suffering, but I would rather help Canadians first and then see what's left for IMG's. If we can fill every single residency spot in Canada with a excellent CMG, which I believe we can, then that's what we should do. 

 

While I understand what you are saying, and I mean fair enough, there are some things I would like to point out. First, getting into medical school in Canada is extremely difficult. Much harder than the United States (I have American friend's who got into state MD schools with a GPA of around 3.5 and an average MCAT for example). Most of the time you need grades in the A to A+ range to have a real good chance in Canada. Having high standards is good. However,  this could be viewed as problematic because people from higher socioeconomic backgrounds will be at an advantage. Medical school here often requires tons of EC's, research, etc. People who don't need to work and/or take care of someone else can dedicate much of their time to handling a difficult full course load. They can afford tutors to guide them through material they might be struggling with. They don't need to worry about rent, tuition, etc. Not having to work means more free time to pursue activities medical schools will look upon favourably and by default most likely tilt the chances in their favour. So Canadians who go abroad to Ireland, Australia, or wherever because they truly feel medicine is their calling , I can sympathize with. Telling people to pick an alternate career over medicine because they are not having any luck with getting in here, or telling them to keep applying year after year after year until they find themselves in their late 20s or early 30s is brutal. I see this frequently on the forums and it's incredibly premature.

 

My position is that Canadians who decide to go abroad for medicine, not the Caribbean diploma mills, but Irish schools or maybe Aussie schools (University of Melbourne was ranked #17 I believe worldwide for medicine last I checked) and actually do well and finish the program, then they likely would have done just as well in a Canadian medical school. It's not right to consider them as "lesser" just because they are IMG's in the match.

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2 minutes ago, TalsKnight said:

Yeah seriously....doesn't this amount to about 19% of the class going unmatched? That is worrisome for a Canadian medical school.

 

While I understand what you are saying, and I mean fair enough, there are some things I would like to point out. First, getting into medical school in Canada is extremely difficult. Much harder than the United States (I have American friend's who got into state MD schools with a GPA of around 3.5 and an average MCAT for example). Most of the time you need grades in the A to A+ range to have a real good chance in Canada. Having high standards is good. However,  this could be viewed as problematic because people from higher socioeconomic backgrounds will be at an advantage. Medical school here often requires tons of EC's, research, etc. People who don't need to work and/or take care of someone else can dedicate much of their time to handling a difficult full course load. They can afford tutors to guide them through material they might be struggling with. They don't need to worry about rent, tuition, etc. Not having to work means more free time to pursue activities medical schools will look upon favourably and by default most likely tilt the chances in their favour. So Canadians who go abroad to Ireland, Australia, or wherever because they truly feel medicine is their calling , I can sympathize with. Telling people to pick an alternate career over medicine because they are not having any luck with getting in here, or telling them to keep applying year after year after year until they find themselves in their late 20s or early 30s is brutal. I see this frequently on the forums and it's incredibly premature.

 

My position is that Canadians who decide to go abroad for medicine, not the Caribbean diploma mills, but Irish schools or maybe Aussie schools (University of Melbourne which was ranked #17 I believe worldwide for medicine last I checked) and actually do well and finish the program, then they likely would have done just as well in a Canadian medical school. It's not right to consider them as "lesser" just because they are IMG's in the match.

Playing devil's advocate but geography is a big factor too. You're screwed if you live in the GTA for example. I'm not even sure how hard it must be nowadays, and I know the USA path is dried up since they're heavily restricting the # of Canadians they take. 

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4 minutes ago, medigeek said:

Playing devil's advocate but geography is a big factor too. You're screwed if you live in the GTA for example. I'm not even sure how hard it must be nowadays, and I know the USA path is dried up since they're heavily restricting the # of Canadians they take. 

 

Very true.  Someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong but you probably have a greater chance at certain schools if you live in the Yukon! It's a very different situation nowadays compared to the past.

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37 minutes ago, medigeek said:

Not at all, you do it via accreditation as I suggested. You can recognize schools that did clinical training in USA (the carib schools) and perhaps some of the European boards of education. I think you missed the whole premise of this, which is where you did clinical training to begin with. A lot of clinicals in foreign countries are pure shadowing. Even residency in many overseas countries is glorified shadowing. Hence why we don't just let anyone practice. 

I understand the premise. You don't understand the law.

You suggested: "restrict IMG spots to CSAs --> CSAs have a much stronger legal ground to stand on compared to complete foreign grads" and then you further clarified: "But I'm suggesting a realistic solution that could pass in court."

You are incorrect.

The change you proposed, whether it's done via accreditation or any other means, would be immediately struck down in court, because it is against the law. More specifically, it is against the Canadian Human Rights Act and each province's respective Human Rights Code. Human Rights Codes are quasi-constitutional, and therefore necessarily supersede any statutory law that could be created in parliament.

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3 hours ago, medigeek said:

Not at all, you do it via accreditation as I suggested. You can recognize schools that did clinical training in USA (the carib schools) and perhaps some of the European boards of education. I think you missed the whole premise of this, which is where you did clinical training to begin with. A lot of clinicals in foreign countries are pure shadowing. Even residency in many overseas countries is glorified shadowing. Hence why we don't just let anyone practice. 

you are right you could do that - but there are limitations. You cannot use the current LCME accreditations because that would open the flood gates to more applicants at a time you are trying to close them. You could create a new accreditation system but there is little motivation for anyone here to accept it. You cannot accredit people by location - you have to actually evaluate each school systematically and fairly (or it will be legally useless to start with - if it is not done well it will be immediately targeted). That means time and money - and for what? To make a currently two tier system into a three tier one (CMA, this new accreditation system, and everyone else). To me there doesn't seem to be enough spots available to justify the time and expense. 

ana_safavi is right - you cannot blindly use country of origin or anything general about their medical education system either. Ha, the Canadian Charter of Right forbids discrimination on the basis of country of origin - and interestingly that includes the possibility that the country of origin is actually Canada itself. You are right we can get around it with accreditation specifically as I think you are indicating - it is just that it is a ton of work, and I mean a ton of work. We are lucky that we piggy back on the US accreditation system because if we developed our own (which we would do before we developed one for other applicants) is an insane amount of work (having gone through a few of these - the amount of paperwork and cost is beyond painful. Thank goodness they are only every several years). 

 

Edited by rmorelan

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