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lotus11

Canandian Residency- Honest view

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I just want to let everyone know who has the dream of getting the residency in Canada that it may or may not be possible for you depending on your circumstances. Although the process is very competitive but most people don’t succeed. The few who do are either very lucky or they have contacts. The first step to even be considered for a position is to do very well in the MCC exams which is quiet difficult. However, after meeting that criteria, the interview is the next hurdle to cross and is considered very important. That’s where the trick lies. Many candidates who have great score, professional skills and knowledge fail here whereas those who have contacts, good people skills or other favouring characteristics succeed. The inherent subjectivity of the interview makes it possible. Being a Caribbean graduate or finishing school recently helps a great deal in addition to the score. Blowing your trumpet louder than anyone else also helps to a great extent in Canada and US even when many people do the same thing. Having friends among the residents and faculty goes a long way.I have even heard that many US and Canadian faculty have invested their money in Caribbean schools and they are looked upon more favourably. The local banks who lend them the money and the fact that they have done their rotations in US and Canada helps a lot and these guys do pay a lot of money in students’ loan so they deserve it too but they all want to go to UBC or U of T when they are also invited by Dalhousie and other Canadian universities. UBC and U of T are the only universities which will give other IMGs a chance. Most of the immigrants who make to the residency tend to only help or take people from their countries and the groups who have stronger networks have more people and more chances compared to others. Many of the residents who go to the IMG associations pre-select people who they want in their program and it makes me wonder if the program directors send them on purpose.

From small jobs to a big level, it’s not entirely transparent but life is not always fair!So long for the residency and Canadian dream but good luck in life in general!

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On 3/19/2019 at 1:38 AM, lotus11 said:

I just want to let everyone know who has the dream of getting the residency in Canada.It may or may not be possible for you depending on your circumstances. Although the process is very competitive but most people don’t succeed. The few who do are either very lucky or they have contacts. The first step to even be considered for a position is to do very well in the MCC exams which is quiet difficult. However, after meeting that criteria, the interview is the next hurdle to cross and is considered very important. That’s where the trick lies. Many candidates who have great score, professional skills and knowledge fail here whereas those who have contacts, good people skills or other favouring characteristics succeed. The inherent subjectivity of the interview makes it possible. Being a Caribbean graduate or finishing school recently helps a great deal in addition to the score. Blowing your trumpet louder than anyone else also helps to a great extent in Canada and US even when many people do the same thing. Having friends among the residents and faculty goes a long way.I have even heard that many US and Canadian faculty have invested their money in Caribbean schools and they are looked upon more favourably. The local banks who lend them the money and the fact that they have done their rotations in US and Canada helps a lot and these guys do pay a lot of money in students’ loan so they deserve it too but they all want to go to UBC or U of T when they are also invited by Dalhousie and other Canadian universities. UBC and U of T are the only universities which will give other IMGs a chance. Most of the immigrants who make to the residency tend to only help or take people from their countries and the groups who have stronger networks have more people and more chances compared to others. Many of the residents who go to the IMG associations pre-select people who they want in their program and it makes me wonder if the program directors send them on purpose.

From small jobs to a big level, it’s not entirely transparent but life is not always fair!So long for the residency and Canadian dream but good luck in life in general!

More reason why people shouldn't go the IMG route. As a non-American, you need to score 240+ on both steps nowadays to have a secure shot at family medicine in USA; which is the one reliable path to Canadian practice. 

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Hope you are not implying that medicine in others parts of the world is not good enough coz that's not the case...It's just the bureaucracy which makes it very difficult to land in the residency

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5 minutes ago, lotus11 said:

Hope you are not implying that medicine in others parts of the world is not good enough coz that's not the case...It's just the bureaucracy which makes it very difficult to land in the residency

Either that or the fact that an increasing number of Canada's own medical graduates aren't even getting a residency spot in recent years... It's a simple numbers game really.

Agree with medigeek - CSA is not the way to go. There is a reason why there are only a certain number of medical school spots in Canada. Going abroad to try and circumvent that system will just cause problems for you $$$$$ in debt later. Sucks for the true IMGs who immigrate to Canada but since we legally aren't allowed to differentiate CSAs from IMGs, they all get lumped in the same bucket.

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Why should the CSAs be in a separate category unless it is specifically made so everyone knows from before.In many cases, Ontario and BC for example,CSAs have done better than IMGs and even some CMGs because they are considered IMGs and can also benefit fron their experience in Canada/US

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I'm an IMG who matched to a competitive residency position in Canada, and I feel that while your post gets at some important issues it doesn't quite capture the full picture. 

I would like to preface this by saying that when going through the process, I had no connections at all. I didn't personally know any staff or faculty in any programs, and I'm the first doctor in my family (so no guidance on that front either). Many of my co-interviewees were also in the same boat, so I feel it's a bit unfair to imply that having connections is required to match. Surely, having connections helps a lot. But I don't think that many people actually have them. At one point, you also said the following:

Quote

 Most of the immigrants who make to the residency tend to only help or take people from their countries and the groups who have stronger networks have more people and more chances compared to others. 

Personally, I have not noticed this to be true. I don't feel like an applicant's ethnicity plays any role in their likelihood of matching, and it shouldn't.

Secondly, one common idea I see among my IMG colleagues is that matching is all about the scores and the interview. And this is rather believable because one, scores are an easy 'stratifier' and can be used to objectively compare applicants, and two, because they are super important in the US. However, my experience (and my experience alone) is that while scores are important, they are far from the only thing that matters in your application. Whereas in the US having stellar scores may guarantee you a spot by themselves, Canadian programs seem to emphasize wellroundedness more. Things like electives in Canada, good letters of recommendation, research, teaching, clubs, awards, leadership, volunteering, other academic involvement (participating in journals, professional organizations, etc), and many more, together seem like they're as important as the scores you have. One common trap I see IMGs falling into is putting all of their eggs in one basket (i.e. focusing on scores alone), which could lead to them neglecting the other things I have mentioned.

I hope my perspective is both accurate and useful. Please feel free to ask me any questions you may have.

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I am also an IMG and can see that you had a good experience but that is not true all across the board. In my experience, I have seen that people who are more active in IMG organizations tend to do better than others who may be equally or more qualified. I do volunteer and have some Canadian clinical experience as well so it's wrong to say that IMGs have no Canadian experience or don't take part in extracurricular activities. I am not sure if you are a CSA because some of them do their clinical rotations in Canada if they have attended a Carribean school which, obviously, gives them an edge over other IMGs in addition to knowing other favorable criteria for the process. It's so difficult to even find unpaid clinical trainee position in Canada and many IMGs go back to their countries to polish their skills. 

I still standby what I said coz I have witnessed it myself that people from certain groups tend to help their fellows and I am not going to take your word for it. It's very common for other jobs, however, you can go by your experience. It's easier for you to say that it's very fair because you did not have same experience or many people would be unwilling to say any negative stuff after making it to the residency even if it were true. 

For the US, you need the same things as for Canada in addition to scores. I know people who matched in US even with average score whereas in Canada, you have to be above average for your application to be even considered. From what you have written, I feel that the IMG positions are for the CSAs. If that's the case, then that category should be changed to CSAs so that other IMGs can make their choices knowing fully well what they are getting themselves into. It's unfair to have all IMGs go through the exams with all the studying that needs to be done to earn their exam fee. The exams are not cheap , neither is CARMS application and most of the IMGs do lower level jobs working very hard to earn few bucks to feed themselves and their families. A number of IMGs apply for residency every year with the hope that it will rid them of their misery but for many,  the dream never comes true even when they were called by the Government on a doctor's visa. Don't know if you have heard the joke of a lion who was called to a zoo and was given bananas everyday until he got sick and asked "Don't you know I am a lion?" to which the administrator replied: "Yes, we know but you have come here on a monkey's visa".I mean no offence but this is similar to what IMGs come across in Canada where they are doing even worse than illiterate people in some cases. Their are plenty of jobs in other professions but the Government with its corrupt politicians, is not spending on physicians even when their is dire physician shortage that's projected to get worse in the coming years. They earn cheaper votes by calling other people which is why people from other professions do fairly well while most IMGs get trapped not even wanting to speak up.We are not here to make the government or other people feel good about themselves or their professions!

 

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On 3/23/2019 at 2:30 PM, lotus11 said:

Why should the CSAs be in a separate category unless it is specifically made so everyone knows from before.In many cases, Ontario and BC for example,CSAs have done better than IMGs and even some CMGs because they are considered IMGs and can also benefit fron their experience in Canada/US

I don't think you understood what I was saying. My point was empathetic to what you described in your follow-up above. Many of the IMG positions in Canada go to CSAs, and while I disagree with having IMG positions in general when there are CMGs going unmatched, I do think that if IMG spots have to exist, they should be going to immigrants, not CSAs.

Also just as an aside, the CSAs who do well in the Canadian match tend to mostly be Ireland grads. Caribbean grads on a whole don't do all that well, given that many of those schools will accept anyone with a pulse and the ability to pay.

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13 minutes ago, xiphoid said:

I don't think you understood what I was saying. My point was empathetic to what you described in your follow-up above. Many of the IMG positions in Canada go to CSAs, and while I disagree with having IMG positions in general when there are CMGs going unmatched, I do think that if IMG spots have to exist, they should be going to immigrants, not CSAs.

 

I diasgree with not having IMG positions in general unless you stop immigration of doctors altogether. For CMGs that go unmatched, the government needs to add more seats to CMG stream at the very least. IMGs don't take it away from them since they compete in a separate category. 

 

17 minutes ago, xiphoid said:

 

Also just as an aside, the CSAs who do well in the Canadian match tend to mostly be Ireland grads. Caribbean grads on a whole don't do all that well, given that many of those schools will accept anyone with a pulse and the ability to pay.

Have seen CSAs from all across the globe matching to the residency programs but ll probably be able to better assess that after making it to the residency, hopefully!

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38 minutes ago, lotus11 said:

I diasgree with not having IMG positions in general unless you stop immigration of doctors altogether. For CMGs that go unmatched, the government needs to add more seats to CMG stream at the very least. IMGs don't take it away from them since they compete in a separate category. 

Every residency spot in Canada costs the government money, regardless if it is going to a CMG or an IMG. Reserving residency spots for IMGs reduces the number of spots for CMGs because total funding will not increase given the financial situation of the government. If the government has dedicated enough funding for 20 residency spots for example, 20 CMG spots means 20 CMGs will match, while 15 CMG spots and 5 IMG spots means 5 less CMGs will match - total number of residency spots is still 20 and will not change greatly.

Ultimately, Canada does not have the same physician shortage as many other countries since we graduate many more doctors domestically than we have jobs. Instead, it is a problem with the distribution of physicians (rural vs urban), and over the long-term, IMGs have not helped with the distribution since most leave the under-served communities as soon as their ROS is up (or even before).

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On 3/23/2019 at 10:30 AM, medigeek said:

More reason why people shouldn't go the IMG route. As a non-American, you need to score 240+ on both steps nowadays to have a secure shot at family medicine in USA; which is the one reliable path to Canadian practice. 

Lol this is innacurate to say the least. Many Canadians from Ross and SGU match to FM in the 210s. But many also dont match in the 220s. Its all about getting the right audition rotations setup at visa granting programs.  Not to mention Canadians who go to USMD/DO programs will match somewhere even with a step 1 fail and pass on 2nd attempt.

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9 hours ago, xiphoid said:

Every residency spot in Canada costs the government money, regardless if it is going to a CMG or an IMG. Reserving residency spots for IMGs reduces the number of spots for CMGs because total funding will not increase given the financial situation of the government. If the government has dedicated enough funding for 20 residency spots for example, 20 CMG spots means 20 CMGs will match, while 15 CMG spots and 5 IMG spots means 5 less CMGs will match - total number of residency spots is still 20 and will not change greatly.

Ultimately, Canada does not have the same physician shortage as many other countries since we graduate many more doctors domestically than we have jobs. Instead, it is a problem with the distribution of physicians (rural vs urban), and over the long-term, IMGs have not helped with the distribution since most leave the under-served communities as soon as their ROS is up (or even before).

I know that but same is the case in US where the government is doing better. So, the actual problem is not why IMGs are getting the spots because they already have few. The real problem that must be addressed is why the government does not have the resources. IMGs spots were created with the purpose of introducing diversity into the medical sector whereas among all the bureaucracy, the purpose was not served. True diversity means having people from all across the world, not just few major countries who are over-represented among the immigrants. We fled the third world countries to find a better life here but ended up finding ourselves in the same boat. IMGs are not the ones who use up all the money from the government while it's 'busy helping people in need' of which IMGs are just a fraction or even less. This is why we see many people doing much better than the doctors, IMGs in particular. Western governments are considered to be rich when ,infact, they are are under a huge amount of debts borrowing money from China  at the moment and India, very soon.  

As far as physician shortage is considered, there are many factors causing this phenomenon. Having few IMGs going to the rural area is not enough to solve this problem as there are many who prefer to live in the rural area even after their ROS is expired, especially if they have immigrated from other countries. 

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2 hours ago, lotus11 said:

I know that but same is the case in US where the government is doing better. So, the actual problem is not why IMGs are getting the spots because they already have few. The real problem that must be addressed is why the government does not have the resources.

The US government does not fund healthcare as it is privatized in the US. The government is not involved in residency it is hospitals/university systems that create residency spots. In the US there are lots of residencies even in smaller cities that are not university affiliated. Can't really compare the two systems on how well they are doing because one is funded by the government (Canada) and one is not (US). 

In the US IMGs have to do a residency. In Canada IMGs who have done residency else where at least have a pathway to become doctors in some places. Each place has it's pros and cons. 

And that is not very nice to say that they are doing worse than illiterate people, just because we went to school does not give us a right to be doing better than those who did not go to school. We do not know what their circumstances were to not complete school etc. 

If you really feel connections help, I say you get making those connections on linkedin, e-mailing people and reaching out! Goodluck 

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37 minutes ago, Papercup said:

The US government does not fund healthcare as it is privatized in the US. The government is not involved in residency it is hospitals/university systems that create residency spots. In the US there are lots of residencies even in smaller cities that are not university affiliated. Can't really compare the two systems on how well they are doing because one is funded by the government (Canada) and one is not (US). 

In the US IMGs have to do a residency. In Canada IMGs who have done residency else where at least have a pathway to become doctors in some places. Each place has it's pros and cons. 

And that is not very nice to say that they are doing worse than illiterate people, just because we went to school does not give us a right to be doing better than those who did not go to school. We do not know what their circumstances were to not complete school etc. 

If you really feel connections help, I say you get making those connections on linkedin, e-mailing people and reaching out! Goodluck 

The healthcare is not entirely privatized in US.It's a mix of both private and public. The other thing is that the 'pathway' you mentioned for the IMGs who have done residency elsewhere does not always produce the best doctors and hence the Canadian healthcare system is not as superior as it is generally considered to allow many people in. 

Thirdly, no where, I said that am better than the people who did not go to school even when most of them expected me to do better than them. These are just some of the societal norms that I have come across in Canada.In the same coin, you know nothing about how many hardships I have been through to make this far!You are being judgmental but I know myself well to give in to any incorrect judgements. 

Lastly, thank you for your advice but don't think it works!

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12 hours ago, JohnGrisham said:

Lol this is innacurate to say the least. Many Canadians from Ross and SGU match to FM in the 210s. But many also dont match in the 220s. Its all about getting the right audition rotations setup at visa granting programs.  Not to mention Canadians who go to USMD/DO programs will match somewhere even with a step 1 fail and pass on 2nd attempt.

Those days are over. Lots of 230s didn't match this year even to FM in the boonies. Looking at very specific programs, I saw DOs with failed boards match to programs that interviewed Canadian IMGs (with 240s) who didn't match there. 

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On 3/25/2019 at 7:52 PM, medigeek said:

Those days are over. Lots of 230s didn't match this year even to FM in the boonies. Looking at very specific programs, I saw DOs with failed boards match to programs that interviewed Canadian IMGs (with 240s) who didn't match there. 

Agreed entirely US Grads that are Canadians will do 10x better than Canadian IMGs from the carrib. 

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On 3/19/2019 at 1:38 PM, lotus11 said:

I just want to let everyone know who has the dream of getting the residency in Canada.It may or may not be possible for you depending on your circumstances. Although the process is very competitive but most people don’t succeed. The few who do are either very lucky or they have contacts. The first step to even be considered for a position is to do very well in the MCC exams which is quiet difficult. However, after meeting that criteria, the interview is the next hurdle to cross and is considered very important. That’s where the trick lies. Many candidates who have great score, professional skills and knowledge fail here whereas those who have contacts, good people skills or other favouring characteristics succeed. The inherent subjectivity of the interview makes it possible. Being a Caribbean graduate or finishing school recently helps a great deal in addition to the score. Blowing your trumpet louder than anyone else also helps to a great extent in Canada and US even when many people do the same thing. Having friends among the residents and faculty goes a long way.I have even heard that many US and Canadian faculty have invested their money in Caribbean schools and they are looked upon more favourably. The local banks who lend them the money and the fact that they have done their rotations in US and Canada helps a lot and these guys do pay a lot of money in students’ loan so they deserve it too but they all want to go to UBC or U of T when they are also invited by Dalhousie and other Canadian universities. UBC and U of T are the only universities which will give other IMGs a chance. Most of the immigrants who make to the residency tend to only help or take people from their countries and the groups who have stronger networks have more people and more chances compared to others. Many of the residents who go to the IMG associations pre-select people who they want in their program and it makes me wonder if the program directors send them on purpose.

From small jobs to a big level, it’s not entirely transparent but life is not always fair!So long for the residency and Canadian dream but good luck in life in general!

word salad

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