ruvi24 Posted April 29, 2019 Report Share Posted April 29, 2019 This is a topic that has been discussed in previous threads but I thought I'd bring it back for more updated thoughts and opinions. I've been fortunate enough to get an offer from both Schulich and Toronto but am torn on making a decision. I was previously set on Western because of the (supposedly) more friendly atmosphere and easier living but have been leaning more toward Toronto as of late after reading about how UofT classes are also very tight-knit and the city is obviously one of a kind. I understand that both schools are fantastic and each have their ups and downs so at the end of the day it'd come down to personal preference but it'd be nice to hear some opinions of students who are currently in these schools or are deciding just like me. Any input about the curriculum/student environment/staff quality/involvement opportunities/really anything would be appreciated! *Also, does anyone know if I am able to accept the Schulich offer (without paying the deposit) and give myself until June to make a final decision without interfering with my UofT position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothurty Posted April 29, 2019 Report Share Posted April 29, 2019 What kind of vibe did you get at each school during your interview? I'm obviously biased since I go to UofT but here's a response from an old thread (credit @Steins;Gate): I'll speak about U of T and include some things that many people do not consider when they begin their dental education: Pros: - Extremely progressive curriculum. We used to never learn implants in prosthodontics in second year but since these past 2 years, implants are a part of second year. Gone are microbiology and other lab sessions that proved to not be useful and now we get to do a lot more clinical assisting (i.e. real patients) in first year through our Comprehensive Care Program (CCP). ... can attest to this, as students we have a lot of say with respect to class issues (for example we had a bunch of exams rescheduled just because we voted to change the dates to make it more manageable to study) ... in CCP you also start practicing basic hygiene procedures (exploring, perio probing, plaque detection, fluoride) on student partners starting November of 1st year - Smoother transition from undergrad to dental school in first year. First year has had many modifications in order for students to feel acquainted with the workload of dental school. The exam schedule is less stressful than the way Western has their exam schedule. ... Western's exams are concentrated between december-feb whereas UofT has normal midterm/finals - Longer first year summer. First year students have 4 months of summer at U of T, while Western students don't get off until June. You can use this time to do research, shadow, travel, work, etc. This is also the very last 4 month summer of your life, so make good use of it! - Strong patient pool. Toronto and GTA's catchment is larger than London and surrounding regions. - Scholarship. Unsure of how much Western pays (I understand there are bursaries and Schulich scholarships), but U of T automatically gives us a $2,000 scholarship for being in this professional program. - Easy to find shadowing opportunities in surrounding private practices and specialty clinics at the school. Faculty and residents encourage you to shadow and some have a preference for U of T students. - Hospital rotations. You will have the opportunity to rotate through some hospitals including: Mt. Sinai, Sick Kids, Sunnybrook, and CAMH. Each hospital has different types of patients to observe and treat. - Research opportunities are very plentiful. U of T prides itself in being a didactic institution so research opportunities are always available. - No class rank. We have GPA and that is it. If you're unsure of a specialty or not... do not worry that class rank will dictate your fate. Just keep your GPA at a decent level and do not worry about comparing to others like you would at Western with class rank. ... not sure if Western still has class rank - Very few schools (I was told none in Canada) allow you to have such major input to changes at the Faculty like Toronto does. I sit on student leadership that gets the chance to speak to Faculty about issues once per 1-2 months. And some have open door policies so we can always go in and speak with them. I was told this is not the case in many other schools. - And then your typical pros like networking opportunities are more plentiful, Toronto is a bigger city and has more attractions/restaurants/places to visit and shop at, and etc. ... this is the biggest pro in my opinion, I grew up in London and it is so boring compared to Toronto. -one more point, UofT has two major dental fraternities (ZIP and AO) which offer TONS of academic resources, social/networking events, parties etc. throughout the year. Not sure if Western offers this. Cons: - Bigger class size. This isn't really a con IMO because you have a higher chance of finding people you click well with. So you can look at it either as a pro or a con. ... i see this as a big pro, imagine being in a small class and you realize there's not very many people you click well with - too bad you're stuck with them for 4 years lol - Rent is more expensive because you are in the city. ... this is the biggest con - Older facilities but they are being renovated as we speak (the cafeteria, lounge, and grad labs are all renovated). The library and auditorium will be renovated soon then the clinics. ... new library opened just this year - You may not be able to get to do the molar endo like you may at UWO but you still may be able to... it would be the luck of the draw. - It would be nice to have a bigger emphasis on wellness. We are working on this and we hope wellness will play a much larger part of the Faculty in the future. ... still in the works but has gotten slightly better Starburst, toothbetold, wenday and 1 other 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WomboCombo Posted April 30, 2019 Report Share Posted April 30, 2019 5 hours ago, ruvi24 said: Any input about the curriculum/student environment/staff quality/involvement opportunities/really anything would be appreciated! Great questions here's a few more things I can add to my previous post about U of T now that I'm in second year: Curriculum: Some courses try their best to update what they teach to match what is out there in the real world. In endo, we get to try out WaveOne Gold. In prostho, the second year course has been updated to include more about implants and partial dentures that exceed some of what the current fourth years have learned. I had the chance to have dinner with the course directors of prostho and they are very open to changes in the course. They appreciate any feedback, including negative feedback and try to find ways to make sure that students have a better grasp of the course before going into clinic. Resto is still a bit outdated but it is good that we learn some aesthetic dentistry (veneers) and we get to try out the CAD/CAM crown milling machine. Perio, while it is didactic, is quite updated in terms of surgical procedures and even the classification scheme for periodontal disease. Most course directors are open to changes in their courses and I am working with other students to update and improve the curriculum (e.g. trying to implement more restorative in first year). It is also possible to move exam/test days around so that it can be more manageable - profs are often open to changes ahead of time. Student Environment: There's a place for everyone. A large class means you will be able to find people to connect with. Students are generally happy at the school and the school is working on ways to improve student experience. Mental health talks, free coffee/snacks on Wednesdays, and many opportunities to get involved are just some of the things that students have responded positively to. Staff Quality: Generally good. Yes, there are some staff who the students may not have the best time with but with the way the courses are structured - demos/hygienists rotate every so often so it evens out. Non-dentist/hygienist staff are generally nice but sometimes can give you a bit of an attitude. There are various ways for you to let the course director or student leadership know about this and changes may be able to be made. Faculty are generally happy to meet with you (sometimes they have an open door policy) and many feel invested in your education. If you want to shadow the grad clinics, it is not a problem at all. Involvement Opportunities: There are a lot of opportunities - often it's easy to lose track of them. Many leadership opportunities, many intramural teams, and many volunteering/fundraising opportunities, etc. If you find that you want to start an organization, that is possible too. A few of my classmates started a Women in Dentistry group and they have been doing quite well so far! There are plenty of opportunities to do research as well - U of T is big on academia. Etc.: Western and Toronto have their own pros and cons. Dental school is tough for most students so a big factor to consider is living/attending somewhere that you feel will make you happiest. U of T is not a perfect program and like many Canadian schools - is not the strongest clinically - but it is in a city that has something for everyone. I did my undergrad at Western and enjoyed my time in London, but Toronto is a very different experience. The question is if you prefer this type of experience over living in London. toothurty, ruvi24 and toothbetold 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longhaul Posted April 30, 2019 Report Share Posted April 30, 2019 6 hours ago, toothurty said: What kind of vibe did you get at each school during your interview? I'm obviously biased since I go to UofT but here's a response from an old thread (credit @Steins;Gate): I'll speak about U of T and include some things that many people do not consider when they begin their dental education: Pros: - Extremely progressive curriculum. We used to never learn implants in prosthodontics in second year but since these past 2 years, implants are a part of second year. Gone are microbiology and other lab sessions that proved to not be useful and now we get to do a lot more clinical assisting (i.e. real patients) in first year through our Comprehensive Care Program (CCP). ... can attest to this, as students we have a lot of say with respect to class issues (for example we had a bunch of exams rescheduled just because we voted to change the dates to make it easier to study lol) - Smoother transition from undergrad to dental school in first year. First year has had many modifications in order for students to feel acquainted with the workload of dental school. The exam schedule is less stressful than the way Western has their exam schedule. ... Western's exams are concentrated between december-feb whereas UofT has normal midterm/finals - Longer first year summer. First year students have 4 months of summer at U of T, while Western students don't get off until June. You can use this time to do research, shadow, travel, work, etc. This is also the very last 4 month summer of your life, so make good use of it! - Strong patient pool. Toronto and GTA's catchment is larger than London and surrounding regions. - Scholarship. Unsure of how much Western pays (I understand there are bursaries and Schulich scholarships), but U of T automatically gives us a $2,000 scholarship for being in this professional program. - Easy to find shadowing opportunities in surrounding private practices and specialty clinics at the school. Faculty and residents encourage you to shadow and some have a preference for U of T students. - Hospital rotations. You will have the opportunity to rotate through some hospitals including: Mt. Sinai, Sick Kids, Sunnybrook, and CAMH. Each hospital has different types of patients to observe and treat. - Research opportunities are very plentiful. U of T prides itself in being a didactic institution so research opportunities are always available. - No class rank. We have GPA and that is it. If you're unsure of a specialty or not... do not worry that class rank will dictate your fate. Just keep your GPA at a decent level and do not worry about comparing to others like you would at Western with class rank. ... not sure if Western still has class rank - Very few schools (I was told none in Canada) allow you to have such major input to changes at the Faculty like Toronto does. I sit on student leadership that gets the chance to speak to Faculty about issues once per 1-2 months. And some have open door policies so we can always go in and speak with them. I was told this is not the case in many other schools. - And then your typical pros like networking opportunities are more plentiful, Toronto is a bigger city and has more attractions/restaurants/places to visit and shop at, and etc. ... this is the biggest pro in my opinion, I grew up in London and it is so boring compared to Toronto. -one more point, UofT has two major dental fraternities (ZIP and AO) which offer TONS of academic resources, social/networking events, parties etc. throughout the year. Pretty sure Western doesn't offer this. Cons: - Bigger class size. This isn't really a con IMO because you have a higher chance of finding people you click well with. So you can look at it either as a pro or a con. ... i see this as a big pro, imagine being in a small class and you realize there's not very many people you click well with - too bad you're stuck with them for 4 years lol - Rent is more expensive because you are in the city. ... this is the biggest con - Older facilities but they are being renovated as we speak (the cafeteria, lounge, and grad labs are all renovated). The library and auditorium will be renovated soon then the clinics. ... new library opened just this year - You may not be able to get to do the molar endo like you may at UWO but you still may be able to... it would be the luck of the draw. - It would be nice to have a bigger emphasis on wellness. We are working on this and we hope wellness will play a much larger part of the Faculty in the future. ... still in the works but has gotten slightly better 2 hours ago, Steins;Gate said: Great questions here's a few more things I can add to my previous post about U of T now that I'm in second year: Curriculum: Some courses try their best to update what they teach to match what is out there in the real world. In endo, we get to try out WaveOne Gold. In prostho, the second year course has been updated to include more about implants and partial dentures that exceed some of what the current fourth years have learned. I had the chance to have dinner with the course directors of prostho and they are very open to changes in the course. They appreciate any feedback, including negative feedback and try to find ways to make sure that students have a better grasp of the course before going into clinic. Resto is still a bit outdated but it is good that we learn some aesthetic dentistry (veneers) and we get to try out the CAD/CAM crown milling machine. Perio, while it is didactic, is quite updated in terms of surgical procedures and even the classification scheme for periodontal disease. Most course directors are open to changes in their courses and I am working with other students to update and improve the curriculum (e.g. trying to implement more restorative in first year). It is also possible to move exam/test days around so that it can be more manageable - profs are often open to changes ahead of time. Student Environment: There's a place for everyone. A large class means you will be able to find people to connect with. Students are generally happy at the school and the school is working on ways to improve student experience. Mental health talks, free coffee/snacks on Wednesdays, and many opportunities to get involved are just some of the things that students have responded positively to. Staff Quality: Generally good. Yes, there are some staff who the students may not have the best time with but with the way the courses are structured - demos/hygienists rotate every so often so it evens out. Non-dentist/hygienist staff are generally nice but sometimes can give you a bit of an attitude. There are various ways for you to let the course director or student leadership know about this and changes may be able to be made. Faculty are generally happy to meet with you (sometimes they have an open door policy) and many feel invested in your education. If you want to shadow the grad clinics, it is not a problem at all. Involvement Opportunities: There are a lot of opportunities - often it's easy to lose track of them. Many leadership opportunities, many intramural teams, and many volunteering/fundraising opportunities, etc. If you find that you want to start an organization, that is possible too. A few of my classmates started a Women in Dentistry group and they have been doing quite well so far! There are plenty of opportunities to do research as well - U of T is big on academia. Etc.: Western and Toronto have their own pros and cons. Dental school is tough for most students so a big factor to consider is living/attending somewhere that you feel will make you happiest. U of T is not a perfect program and like many Canadian schools - is not the strongest clinically - but it is in a city that has something for everyone. I did my undergrad at Western and enjoyed my time in London, but Toronto is a very different experience. The question is if you prefer this type of experience over living in London. Majority of what toothurty and Steins;Gate discussed above also applies to western in regards to curriculum, environment, staff quality, and involvement opportunities Some specifics: - Class rankings are not communicated - We also have the AO frat, as does UofT - Perio classifications are updated to the current standards in our didactic and clinical education to ensure the expected standard of care - Our issues are quite easily communicated with profs, since majority know us by first name basis (rescheduling exams, clinical case discussions with profs, etc) - We have a student issues committee which has faculty advisers and allows the student voice to be considered in admin decision making. - We learn and get the opportunity to restore implants in 3rd and 4th year - In 2nd year we are able to use dental microscopes in sim clinic. Rotary WaveOne Gold and Vortex systems are mandatory for each RCT. We utilize these as well in main clinic in 3rd and 4th year - 3 year old sim clinic with personal computers and screens at each station connected to instructor demo area - Digital charting and xrays in all clinics; we utilize digital xrays in sim - We begin shadowing and assisting February of 1st year on a weekly basis - 1st year exams are condensed for only the month of December. For the rest of the year, you have midterms and finals spread out. You have from March-May where you're chilling and majority of focus is on operative - With a class of 56, it's quite an optimal size to also have the opportunity to meet people you enjoy being around. Class activities and outings are much easier to coordinate and plan with the smaller size. For those you'd rather not communicate to on a daily basis, you have plenty of opportunity to do that. The small class size also provides the benefit of shorter lines for digital xrays, wet lab and cast trimming machines - Plenty of UWO students place in american specialties (paedo, OMFS, endo) and GPRs/AEGDs, including top ranked programs - to say that american schools favor UofT grads because of reputation is misinformation/anecdotal Both schools will give you a DDS. There will be things at both schools you have to supplement with CE's afterwards. Make your decision based on personal reasons (finances, living, distance from family etc) rather than what education you will be receiving, since both schools are on similar footing despite what you may read on premed101 toothurty, WomboCombo and ruvi24 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longhaul Posted April 30, 2019 Report Share Posted April 30, 2019 7 hours ago, ruvi24 said: This is a topic that has been discussed in previous threads but I thought I'd bring it back for more updated thoughts and opinions. I've been fortunate enough to get an offer from both Schulich and Toronto but am torn on making a decision. I was previously set on Western because of the (supposedly) more friendly atmosphere and easier living but have been leaning more toward Toronto as of late after reading about how UofT classes are also very tight-knit and the city is obviously one of a kind. I understand that both schools are fantastic and each have their ups and downs so at the end of the day it'd come down to personal preference but it'd be nice to hear some opinions of students who are currently in these schools or are deciding just like me. Any input about the curriculum/student environment/staff quality/involvement opportunities/really anything would be appreciated! *Also, does anyone know if I am able to accept the Schulich offer (without paying the deposit) and give myself until June to make a final decision without interfering with my UofT position? Yes, you can accept and hold your spot till June payment deadline all while not interfering with your UofT position ruvi24 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dds2T8 Posted April 30, 2019 Report Share Posted April 30, 2019 Great questions! You are already on the right track thinking about the atmosphere, education, and extracurricular/future job opportunities. I can't give you a completely unbiased opinion b/c I didn't attend both schools for the full 4 years, but I will share what I know. I graduated from U of T dentistry just this past year in 2018 and can say that although the school isn't perfect and there were some things I wish were done differently in courses, I would do it all over again at U of T if I had the choice. I could go on for paragraphs about why, but here are some of the main reasons why I enjoyed dentistry at U of T: 1. Being in downtown Toronto, there is always a lot to do outside of class. Sure, there isn't as much of a campus feel as Western, but there is never a boring day downtown with tons of fun things to do (restaurants, bars, clubs/lounges, shopping, theatres, etc.). Although many students commuted from home, eventually most of the class ended up living downtown for convenience so it eventually did have the "campus feel" in my opinion. 2. U of T really cares about students opinions. There were a number of things that my class wasn't happy with at the time in first year in terms of the curriculum. There were some courses that we thought were useless/could have been better spent learning other things, and U of T listened to our criticism. The following year, they got rid of a lab component of a course (BBOHD) that was completely useless, so the year after us had it much better than we did (among other changes). That is just 1 example, but I think that just shows that they're always willing to listen and tweak the curriculum in a way that best benefits the learning of the students. 3. There are plenty of externships and volunteer opportunities offered at U of T from 2nd to 4th year. Many of my friends took advantage of these opportunities and learned a lot! I'm sure Western also has this, but I thought it was worth a mention. 4. Our 3rd year anesthesia professor is the dentist for the Toronto Raptors and has a killer DJ voice (sorry, I know this is an inside joke that no one will understand). Basically, there are many professors at U of T that are well connected and contribute a lot to the college and elsewhere (so good connections can be made when you're at U of T). Lastly, I want to address a couple misconceptions I've heard over the years when comparing U of T and Western: Misconception #1: "U of T facility is old and dingy and Western facilities are pretty and new" - well, this is kind of true LOL but the main thing is that even though a few places in U of T haven't really changed in 50 years (the basement lab), it really had no affect on our education and if anything, added a little history to the place! (some of our profs who are now 60 years old would tell us they sat right in our exact seat 40 years ago and nothing has changed). Other parts of the U of T faculty are nice and newer, but Western does have the newer equipment overall. Misconception #2: "Employers tend to like hiring Western grads over U of T grads" - this is definitely NOT true. I don't think grads from any particular school tend to get hired more; it really depends on the person (or the employers preference if they personally graduated from U of T vs. Western). Most of my class had job offers lined up before we graduated and I am currently associating at 3 places part time and have been busy since the day after I graduated. The only opinion I have of Western comes from friends I know that graduated Western the same time I graduated U of T. He is also very successful right now and is actually running his own clinic with a partner. However, he told me that "the education at Western is going downhill". He didn't really expand much on this but said it had to do with the professors and the curriculum. He also said while he was at Western, there were talks of even merging with U of T (though I don't know how true this is or if it was just an idea people had). Ultimately, you will graduate with a DDS either way and should have no problem findings associate positions after. Also, whether you go to U of T or Western, you will graduate still knowing nothing (sorry to say). Most of your learning will come in the real world after school :) Sorry for the essay, but I hope my opinions help. toothurty, toothbetold and ruvi24 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruvi24 Posted May 1, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 On 4/29/2019 at 6:39 PM, toothurty said: What kind of vibe did you get at each school during your interview? I'm obviously biased since I go to UofT but here's a response from an old thread (credit @Steins;Gate): I'll speak about U of T and include some things that many people do not consider when they begin their dental education: Truthfully, I had great vibes in both interviews. This is my second cycle interviewing in both schools and last year I had a much better experience in London as opposed to Toronto but I think that may have been because of my own poor performance bumming me out. This year I was more positive and saw both schools in a more positive light as well. Everyone was super friendly at both interviews, only making it harder for me to choose hahah. On 4/29/2019 at 10:53 PM, Steins;Gate said: Great questions here's a few more things I can add to my previous post about U of T now that I'm in second year: On 4/30/2019 at 12:47 AM, longhaul said: Majority of what toothurty and Steins;Gate discussed above also applies to western in regards to curriculum, environment, staff quality, and involvement opportunities On 4/30/2019 at 3:36 PM, dds2T8 said: I can't give you a completely unbiased opinion b/c I didn't attend both schools for the full 4 years, but I will share what I know. All of these responses are extremely helpful, thank you so much! I hope others reading this thread find it helpful also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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