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Unstoppable

Science Pre-req expiry date removed for McGill, Full time policy revised and NTP pathway terminated

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On 5/24/2019 at 2:23 PM, Unstoppable said:

https://www.mcgill.ca/medadmissions/applying/categories/roq/ntp 

How does this change the game for future applicants? Will this make the process more or less competitive?

I feel like it will make the process more difficult for NTPs as in the university category they look at your pre-req grades post-interviews, which wasn’t the case in the NTP pathway? 

(I am biased because my pre-reqs suck and I wish I wasn’t penalized for how I did in school 8 years ago.)

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1 hour ago, Al22 said:

I feel like it will make the process more difficult for NTPs as in the university category they look at your pre-req grades post-interviews, which wasn’t the case in the NTP pathway? 

(I am biased because my pre-reqs suck and I wish I wasn’t penalized for how I did in school 8 years ago.)

I know how you feel. Thankfully my pre-req GPA is 4.0 (Option 2) but my DegGPA is pretty low because of my first two years, which were 8-9 years ago ... it doesn't matter how much my GPA improved in the following 5 years, those two years are still holding me back and it sucks!

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I am at a bit of a loss with regards to their logic: They have understood that NTP students are highly qualified at that the 2-5 spots allocated to this category prevents many qualified candidates from matriculating. So rather than increase the number of allotted seats, they have done away with the category?!

Lumping everyone in the same category actually makes it less likely that highly qualified NTP applicants will be let in so that I do not understand how they aim to achieve student diversity... 

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11 minutes ago, swtomd said:

I am at a bit of a loss with regards to their logic: They have understood that NTP students are highly qualified at that the 2-5 spots allocated to this category prevents many qualified candidates from matriculating. So rather than increase the number of allotted seats, they have done away with the category?!

Lumping everyone in the same category actually makes it less likely that highly qualified NTP applicants will be let in so that I do not understand how they aim to achieve student diversity... 

NTP average GPA has been historically lower than the University category average GPA, so you may actually be right about some NTPs not making it. I however wonder if the NTP pathway was designed to increase diversity; 2-3 students won't diversify a class of about 180 students in my opinion. If diversity is desired, drastic measures surpassing the 2-3 NTP seats must be taken to make that happen. Just my opinion!

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2 hours ago, Unstoppable said:

If diversity is desired, drastic measures surpassing the 2-3 NTP seats must be taken to make that happen. Just my opinion!

measures like increasing the value of the CV above 10%?  (While the Casper might help diversity I don’t 100% believe the whole « if you have pertinent life experience it will make you stand out in the Casper », for what it’s worth I know of people who got in by practicing or even straight up inventing anecdotes on their casper, so I wonder what they’re really selecting for there)

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19 minutes ago, Al22 said:

measures like increasing the value of the CV above 10%?  (While the Casper might help diversity I don’t 100% believe the whole « if you have pertinent life experience it will make you stand out in the Casper », for what it’s worth I know of people who got in by practicing or even straight up inventing anecdotes on their casper, so I wonder what they’re really selecting for there)

Casper was introduced to pre-select for interpersonal skills in order to increase the number of candidates with good interpersonal skills that are invited for the MMI; although I doubt the goal is achieved as Casper is either type fast or sink, no matter your people skill level. In my opinion, if diversity is of any importance, it needs to be given similar privilege as GPA (which ensures students will survive the rigorous MD program), MMI (which ensures interpersonal skills that is crucial in medical practice), and CV (which gives admissions a sense of applicant personality, experiences, skills and priorities that may contribute in making a great physician and contribute to the medical field as a whole).

Is diversity at all relevant?; remains the real question here. If it does level the playing field for all, or contribute to the medical field, then it needs to be given a percentage in the selection process such that it can compensate for GPA and other selection factors just like life experiences (CV) or interpersonal skills (MMI) does. 

My observation is that US med schools that have improved diversity in their classes have had to treat diversity as a relevant factor instead of a privilege.

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Given the long-term planning required to gain admission into medical school, I think it would have been more appropriate to advertise any changes two admission cycles in advance and let people adjust instead of changing things all at once...

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22 minutes ago, Dodo said:

Given the long-term planning required to gain admission into medical school, I think it would have been more appropriate to advertise any changes two admission cycles in advance and let people adjust instead of changing things all at once...

Agreed! Maybe admissions would consider this point if someone brought it to their attention.

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Wow. As someone who got into the NTP this year (and isn't required to do the qualifying year), this is quite a lot to process. I think it makes a lot of sense to eliminate the pre-req expiration, but now McGill is no longer available to people who  completed their degree on a part-time basis (short of a few semesters here or there). I really wonder what motivated this. Perhaps they looked at successful NTP students and made these changes based on who they saw primarily applying?

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Upon further inspection, I think that the NTP program wasn't producing the level of diversity they wanted.

From the website:

"This change recognizes the fact that applicants with a variety of educational, career, and life experiences who were previously restricted to the 2-5 Quebec NTP seats, have profiles that are very competitive for admission in the larger Quebec University cohort, and go on to be successful in our program."

This change in addition to the new Rural and Small Populations Pathway (RSPP) is an interesting indication of the direction that McGill is moving towards. (<---This sentence is weirdly worded. Too brain dead to fix it. Sorry.)

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10 hours ago, RD2BE said:

Wow. As someone who got into the NTP this year (and isn't required to do the qualifying year), this is quite a lot to process.

Congratulations on your acceptance!

5 hours ago, RD2BE said:

Upon further inspection, I think that the NTP program wasn't producing the level of diversity they wanted.

From the website:

"This change recognizes the fact that applicants with a variety of educational, career, and life experiences who were previously restricted to the 2-5 Quebec NTP seats, have profiles that are very competitive for admission in the larger Quebec University cohort, and go on to be successful in our program."

This change in addition to the new Rural and Small Populations Pathway (RSPP) is an interesting indication of the direction that McGill is moving towards. (<---This sentence is weirdly worded. Too brain dead to fix it. Sorry.)

I am just learning of the RSPP pathway. This is a right move toward addressing part of the diversity issue. Hopefully this will snowball into the overall diversity McGill so desires.

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On 5/27/2019 at 12:39 AM, Unstoppable said:

Agreed! Maybe admissions would consider this point if someone brought it to their attention.

I agree as well - maybe we all can e-mail and see? Had I known this, I would of just started a new degree (applied to one) rather than having my hopes for this category. A 1 year warning would be of been great. 

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On 6/10/2019 at 3:34 PM, ABCD13 said:

I agree as well - maybe we all can e-mail and see? Had I known this, I would of just started a new degree (applied to one) rather than having my hopes for this category. A 1 year warning would be of been great. 

If this puts you in an impossible position, you should seriously consider contacting admissions with your concerns regarding the change. I hope you find a way around this change that doesn't involve wasting your time and money. All the best!

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While I do feel absolutely horrible for anyone that is being impacted by this, I do want to say that the NTP is not the best option to apply overall. I say this while being waitlisted for NTP.

The candidates are extremely bright and shining examples of performance within and outside academia. Everyone I spoke with had CVs filled up with volunteering, research and often clinical experience. The only thing that is counted is your interview performance which means that certain people will easily fit into the format while others will not. If you performed very well in your pre-req courses you have a few points extra while it isn`t always the same for the NTP applicants. The applicant GPA is lower in general compared to QC Uni. If you have high grades you will most likely be more advantaged in the Qc Uni stream.

Additionally, we never know how many people get in until the number is released (2 to 5). Just statistically, your odds are higher in the Uni stream. In 2018, as per the numbers released, there were 891 applicants for 94 admissions for the Qc Uni vs. 127 and 5 for the NTP. The movement on the waitlist for NTP is usually very small compared to qc UNI. so you are looking at a significant increase in likelihood to get in. Obviously im stating just numbers. But you may also have to do the QY year which is mandatory if you don`t get an exemption (individual review by a committee). That does not guarantee your admission unless you have the required grades in a full 10 course year. If memory serves, L&B do not cover QY years as it is not part of a program but I could be wrong. NTP feels like a last ditch if your courses are obsolete or not fully completed (or if for some reason you had to do a degree part time). These situations appear to have been integrated into the QC uni program (at least to my understanding). 

I would urge you to look at the positive side, if you were competitive in the NTP you should remain so in the QC UNI one as well pre interview. 

I wish you luck regardless of the path you take. I would suggest you do a program you love as a second degree as well. That is what I did and I came out with a solid career and something I am passionate about. Makes it bearable to not get into the NTP and potentially do another cycle of admissions (or more lol). 

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I agree with the above post, except I don't get how the NTP applicants are supposed to compete with QC uni stream in terms of grades. For NTP a 3.5 was considered pretty competitive but it's not really the case for QC uni so that puts them at a major disadvantage and pretty much no shot at an interview. Seems strange, but correct me if I'm wrong..

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I agree with @amt6500 that NTP may not have been such a great option for a lot of 'non traditional' candidates anyway and I am looking on the positive side of this! I have known at least a couple of people who successfully switched streams to get in and that is something I am going to try for myself.

Regarding GPA: past year NTP applicant cycles have usually seen somewhere in the ~3.85 GPA average range for successful interviewees, so it seems like low GPAs  (less than 3.6) probably weren't very competitive to begin with for NTP. (On that note, does anyone know how they calculate 'GPA' with grades that are a mix of CEGEP and University courses, especially for pre-reqs?)

@Premedstudent0307 I hear you there: it seems like low GPA NTPs will have a harder time. Hopefully it can be made up for with the 10% CV. Mine is about 3.75 and I'm hoping for the latter. 

One thing that is certain about this change is that it is really shooting down people who have non-science backgrounds (myself included) because it now compels you to do all 7 prereqs. That is at least 3 semesters of part-time studying (27 credits total if you've never done calculus)  - a lot of time, especially for people who are currently in the workforce. It's a lot of energy to gamble with. 

McMaster's remains one of the only programs that truly doesn't discriminate against non-science applicants now. With this revision, McGill is really failing on that progressive front. Seems like they're testing out the NOSM approach with the RSPP, which I hope at least succeeds in bringing more culturally appropriate primary care physicians to areas that desperately need them in this province. So good on them for that :)

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I believe you do not have your CEGEP grades considered in the NTP process. You need to have completed an undergrad by the deadline for NTP and the post interview score is 100% interview. The only place where the CEGEP courses would count should be around the exemption process if you manage to complete all the prereqs prior to the deadline and you have an admission offer to NTP. If I understand correctly anyway. 

In my opinion, the NTP was a much harder process in terms of the quality of applicants. You would probably see more academia oriented people in the QC stream than in the NTP one which means the likelihood of being against much more experienced orators and practitioners is high. I say this coming from a clinical background. The danger here is that if you perform well in interviews, you have more chances. But remember you have a QY year with grade reqs at university full time. That is also a challenge for financial reasons. 

All in all, I wish medicine would be a bit more geared towards the human aspects as well. With new technologies, I do think the process should limit the incredible significance of grades a little bit more. You might get some really exceptional candidates out of that pool of less grade savy people. Good luck on your attempts @notacliche 

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Thanks, @amt6500! Though I'm totally out of my league here, my gut tells me that the 'human' aspects of a physician (e.g. communication and compassion) will be the most valuable qualities as AI and other tech takes over the more quantitative and analytic parts of the profession. So, totally agree that those qualities should be sought after here. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

For the CEGEP grades, I was wondering how they get calculated into overall 'GPA' component in the MDCM/Uni stream, both for initial application and then post-interview (as pre-requisites). 

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