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Low socioeconomic status initiative starting in September?

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If I'm understanding it right, if you qualify for the LSES you are essentially put in TWO separate streams where if you don't get accepted through the LSES stream you will be considered under your general stream.

I'm finding the eligibility requirement for the LSES a little too broad. I wouldn't be surprised if many applicants became eligible for it. 

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2 hours ago, RiderSx said:

If I'm understanding it right, if you qualify for the LSES you are essentially put in TWO separate streams where if you don't get accepted through the LSES stream you will be considered under your general stream.

I'm finding the eligibility requirement for the LSES a little too broad. I wouldn't be surprised if many applicants became eligible for it. 

Yep. Although that income is below the Canadian median, that income threshold is definitely not low SES in some parts of Canada.

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Might just be me, but I don’t see how LSES provides more opportunity. Using the English stream as an example, wouldn’t the chances of getting in be higher interviewing and getting accepted as a general Anglophone if you factor in the movement of the waitlist? If anything, most of the time, for people on these “reserved seat options”, the waitlist rarely moves and  they also can’t be considered for the “general spots” which are more abundant in number. 

 

Emailed ottawa about this, and they posted me a link to their webpage, SMH.

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35 minutes ago, lefnalex said:

Might just be me, but I don’t see how LSES provides more opportunity. Using the English stream as an example, wouldn’t the chances of getting in be higher interviewing and getting accepted as a general Anglophone if you factor in the movement of the waitlist? If anything, most of the time, for people on these “reserved seat options”, the waitlist rarely moves and  they also can’t be considered for the “general spots” which are more abundant in number. 

 

Emailed ottawa about this, and they posted me a link to their webpage, SMH.

  • What happens to my application if I do not qualify for the Social Accountability Initiative?

If you do not qualify for the reserved seats, your application will be processed as a general application for the stream/program you would be applying to (Francophone, Anglophone, Indigenous, or MD/PhD)“

 

I think this implies that you would be considered under the general stream if you don’t get accepted through the LSES stream.

Although it could also mean that they will only consider you for the general stream if you don’t QUALIFY for the LSES stream. Which in that case you’d be screwed competing for only 2 seats. But I think this is the unlikely scenario.

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1 hour ago, RiderSx said:

  • What happens to my application if I do not qualify for the Social Accountability Initiative?

If you do not qualify for the reserved seats, your application will be processed as a general application for the stream/program you would be applying to (Francophone, Anglophone, Indigenous, or MD/PhD)“

 

I think this implies that you would be considered under the general stream if you don’t get accepted through the LSES stream.

Although it could also mean that they will only consider you for the general stream if you don’t QUALIFY for the LSES stream. Which in that case you’d be screwed competing for only 2 seats. But I think this is the unlikely scenario.

I can see that as the case for when you are applying and receiving an interview. But post-interview wise, I think it makes it complicated based on what I am reading — in a way, if you’re an anglophone,  it’s almost counterproductive. 

Qualifications are too broad, you’re likely going to get significantly more people applying for 2 LSES spots, so what’s the target number of interview candidates: 10/12 for 2 seats? Are the 8-10 waitlisted people not going to be considered for the “general” seats? 

To me, LSES looks like the Indigenous option, but instead for LSES and 2 spots available instead of 7 in either stream. So again, if I recall correctly (someone correct me if I am wrong), Indigenous applicants have their own waitlist after interviews for their reserved seats, so I am assuming it is the likely case here too.

Where's @Donald_Duck to answer everything?? :(

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I'm mostly surprised at the 60 000$ threshold they chose. Because 60 000 for a family of 1-2 parents and one child is significantly different than a family of 1-2 parents and 5 children for instance. Clearly they did not think this through properly. 

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Several points of disagreement:

-Only 2 seats for low SES applicants out of what, ~160? That's 1.2% of a student body vs 14% of Canada's population. Is that really enough?

-What about financial and opportunity costs related to volunteering, tutoring, interviewing (paying for a suit, travelling, accommodation), coaching (MMI/interview), CASPer (MCAT for other schools), paying for a university education that has to include strict course prerequisites, and incredible application fees? Not including ancillary fees related to all of those? How many people end up giving up on a possibility of med school due to all of these points of attrition? This would be too little, too late.

-Does having an arbitrary income threshold cutoff make sense? What about people who end up paying for medical fees/prescriptions that are not covered, or are not financially supported by their parents, or have to support additional children/infirm relatives/etc?

-Why just Grade 11/12? What if your parents lose their jobs when you start university and you have to work to support them and yourself?

-What about other sources of financial assets other than yearly income? Property? Land?

-What about the impact of geographical location? What if all of that income goes out to housing?

Honestly seems a bit superficial.

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8 hours ago, RiderSx said:

  • What happens to my application if I do not qualify for the Social Accountability Initiative?

If you do not qualify for the reserved seats, your application will be processed as a general application for the stream/program you would be applying to (Francophone, Anglophone, Indigenous, or MD/PhD)“

 

I think this implies that you would be considered under the general stream if you don’t get accepted through the LSES stream.

Although it could also mean that they will only consider you for the general stream if you don’t QUALIFY for the LSES stream. Which in that case you’d be screwed competing for only 2 seats. But I think this is the unlikely scenario.

I wanted to clarify this again. So Ottawa has gotten back to me and what @RiderSx said is correct “you would be considered under the general stream if you don’t get accepted through the LSES stream.”

so essentially you are considered for the LSES pool, and if you don’t make it, you are considered for the regular pool 

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1 hour ago, lefnalex said:

I wanted to clarify this again. So Ottawa has gotten back to me and what @RiderSx said is correct “you would be considered under the general stream if you don’t get accepted through the LSES stream.”

so essentially you are considered for the LSES pool, and if you don’t make it, you are considered for the regular pool 

When I spoke with admissions on the phone today, I was told that if you select the LSES option on OMSAS and you meet the income cut off requirement, you are only considered for that pool. Essentially, you will be competing for those 2 spots at that point. I am really confused now. 

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3 hours ago, conbrio said:

Several points of disagreement:

-Only 2 seats for low SES applicants out of what, ~160? That's 1.2% of a student body vs 14% of Canada's population. Is that really enough?

It is still a step in the right direction, hopefully, the program will continue to expand seats as it grows. It is always difficult to start big right off the bat with a new program I imagine (maybe it's like a pilot year?). Right now, very few medical schools are addressing low SES specifically (not including Indigenous streams), I am only aware of Toronto, Calgary and perhaps Sask? 

-What about financial and opportunity costs related to volunteering, tutoring, interviewing (paying for a suit, travelling, accommodation), coaching (MMI/interview), CASPer (MCAT for other schools), paying for a university education that has to include strict course prerequisites, and incredible application fees? Not including ancillary fees related to all of those? How many people end up giving up on a possibility of med school due to all of these points of attrition? This would be too little, too late.

If you re-read the original link posted above, in the statement it discusses phase II of the program briefly. From what I have heard, they will be targetting students coming out of high school to address these exact issues. You are right that many students fall out before they even get through their undergrad, phase II should address this. Everyone knows that more upstream interventions will always be better.

 

 
 
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3 hours ago, conbrio said:

-Does having an arbitrary income threshold cutoff make sense? What about people who end up paying for medical fees/prescriptions that are not covered, or are not financially supported by their parents, or have to support additional children/infirm relatives/etc?

-Why just Grade 11/12? What if your parents lose their jobs when you start university and you have to work to support them and yourself?

-What about other sources of financial assets other than yearly income? Property? Land?

-What about the impact of geographical location? What if all of that income goes out to housing?

Honestly seems a bit superficial.

There is no way to cover every scenario for a massive population like this. For anything, you can always think of exceptions to the rule, including current medical school policies. I applaud the Faculty for taking a step in the right direction, unlike most medical schools who continue to ignore or even exacerbate the gap.  I am sure as the program rolls out, they will tweak policies over time to better serve and encapture LSES population. Sometimes action >> paralysis by analysis. 

 

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1 hour ago, Fun_Mushroom1998 said:

When I spoke with admissions on the phone today, I was told that if you select the LSES option on OMSAS and you meet the income cut off requirement, you are only considered for that pool. Essentially, you will be competing for those 2 spots at that point. I am really confused now. 

Here it comes again, ottawa's admissions likely not being on the same page. Did you talk to Diane or Chantal? 

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It looks like you are not automatically eligible for the LSES stream simply for being under the $60,000 threshold. 

"Candidates who meet criteria 1 and 2 and wish to apply to the Anglophone or Francophone streams, or to the Indigenous or MD/PhD programs are potential candidates for the Social Accountability Initiative."

"It is the responsibility of the applicant to provide all appropriate and supporting documents for complete file review for the Social Accountability consideration."

It seems like $60,000 could just be the limit they set, and they presumably ask for more information from applicants with respect to their SES, and undergoes another stage of file review. 

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Sorry that I was dormant on this forum! To clarify, applying in this stream is only going to increase your chance of admission. For example you are 1 applicant out of 4000 for the English stream seats, and out of the 4000 applicants 100 are eligible for LSES stream. As the 1 applicant, you will now be competing against 100 for those 2 spots, but if unsuccessful, you will be re-assessed against the entire 4000 applicant pool.

This is the same process they have done for MD/PHD applicants for example.

If you qualify, absolutely apply, this will only increase your chances of admission (however, only slightly as there are very limited spots with possibilities of expanding the spots in the future).

I do not know the background research that went into creating this stream, but we have to keep in mind that students from a low socio-economic background tend to have  lower admission averages/weaker CVs (although this is obviously not the case for everyone!). If you take the indigenous program for example, although there are 4 seats, some years they had trouble to fill the seats even with 60-80 applicants given the difficulty with obtaining candidates with the adequate grade requirement/interview score. I would not undermine the success of this program until we have a couple years of data and assessment of it's impact on granting admission for students from low socio-economic status. I think this is a step in the right direction.

Mr Duck

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13 hours ago, Donald_Duck said:

Sorry that I was dormant on this forum! To clarify, applying in this stream is only going to increase your chance of admission. For example you are 1 applicant out of 4000 for the English stream seats, and out of the 4000 applicants 100 are eligible for LSES stream. As the 1 applicant, you will now be competing against 100 for those 2 spots, but if unsuccessful, you will be re-assessed against the entire 4000 applicant pool.

 This is the same process they have done for MD/PHD applicants for example.

 If you qualify, absolutely apply, this will only increase your chances of admission (however, only slightly as there are very limited spots with possibilities of expanding the spots in the future).

I do not know the background research that went into creating this stream, but we have to keep in mind that students from a low socio-economic background tend to have  lower admission averages/weaker CVs (although this is obviously not the case for everyone!). If you take the indigenous program for example, although there are 4 seats, some years they had trouble to fill the seats even with 60-80 applicants given the difficulty with obtaining candidates with the adequate grade requirement/interview score. I would not undermine the success of this program until we have a couple years of data and assessment of it's impact on granting admission for students from low socio-economic status. I think this is a step in the right direction.

Mr Duck

Thanks for the clarification Mr Duck! Are these seats pre-interview or post-interview or both?

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1 hour ago, Donald_Duck said:

these are post-interview 2 seats

Mr Duck 

Nice to see you back Mr. Duck!

So to clarify, post-interview, if you are in the LSES stream you compete for the 2 reserved seats. If unsuccessful, you are reassessed against the general anglophone stream.

However, what is the process pre-interview? is there no LSES/Anglophone distinction pre-interview? If there is, would you be re-assessed for an Anglophone interview if you do not receive one as an LSES applicant?

From what I understand MD/PhD applicants would be reassessed for the MD stream both pre and post-interview if they are not selected for MD/PhD at each stage.

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Does anyone know what the minimum WGPA is for the LSES stream for an Ontario (Anglophone) student? Would it be the same as applying to the Anglophone stream? I just emailed admissions but I am curious if anyone else has already asked this.

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20 hours ago, yeescience said:

Does anyone know what the minimum WGPA is for the LSES stream for an Ontario (Anglophone) student? Would it be the same as applying to the Anglophone stream? I just emailed admissions but I am curious if anyone else has already asked this.

Did they ever get back to you? Curious as well!

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28 minutes ago, conbrio said:

Did they ever get back to you? Curious as well!

I guess it is the same because they only provided me with the cut-offs for the English (3.85) and French stream (3.7)... No mention of the LSES stream though I specifically stated that too.

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2 hours ago, yeescience said:

I guess it is the same because they only provided me with the cut-offs for the English (3.85) and French stream (3.7)... No mention of the LSES stream though I specifically stated that too.

Hmm, so given that the cutoffs are the same, the advantages to applying through this program is that we would be considered for two spots in a smaller pool of people, in addition to being considered for the normal stream if not successful. Although this does increase our chances, thought perhaps minimally, it may mean that it won't help people who have lower GPAs which would be a more common issue for low SES applicants.

I wonder if they treat everyone equally under the income threshold, or whether the extent of socioeconomic difficulty would play a role in admission.

or they're not telling us because they have no way to know what the cutoff will be. Who knows lol 

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On 6/6/2019 at 4:15 PM, conbrio said:

Several points of disagreement:

-Only 2 seats for low SES applicants out of what, ~160? That's 1.2% of a student body vs 14% of Canada's population. Is that really enough?

-What about financial and opportunity costs related to volunteering, tutoring, interviewing (paying for a suit, travelling, accommodation), coaching (MMI/interview), CASPer (MCAT for other schools), paying for a university education that has to include strict course prerequisites, and incredible application fees? Not including ancillary fees related to all of those? How many people end up giving up on a possibility of med school due to all of these points of attrition? This would be too little, too late.

-Does having an arbitrary income threshold cutoff make sense? What about people who end up paying for medical fees/prescriptions that are not covered, or are not financially supported by their parents, or have to support additional children/infirm relatives/etc?

-Why just Grade 11/12? What if your parents lose their jobs when you start university and you have to work to support them and yourself?

-What about other sources of financial assets other than yearly income? Property? Land?

-What about the impact of geographical location? What if all of that income goes out to housing?

Honestly seems a bit superficial.

I agree with you. I did not get nay financial support from my family in grade 11 and 12 and I feel that this new section for Ottawa does not consider "mature" students. AKA. I am actually 30 years old, so going back to my parents now that I have zero relationship with and asking for their income statements 13 years ago is absurd. Not to mention, I am considered low-income (making less than 20k). Applying to medical school has been a financial burden on top of it. So I do wish they would consider the fact that for some applicants, grade 11/12 is over a decade ago and perhaps should consider their situation NOW vs. decades ago. 

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