LMCC 2 Results

[LittleDaisy]

15 hours ago, abc123def456 said:

Does anyone have any opinions on Kingston or Ottawa for exam sites?

I personally don't think exam sites matter at all tbh. With everyone complaining, the MCC might lower their pass score, there is speculation that the failure rate for the 1st exam takers is 17%?

[Chimichuri]

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[Chimichuri]

10 hours ago, LittleDaisy said:

I personally don't think exam sites matter at all tbh. With everyone complaining, the MCC might lower their pass score, there is speculation that the failure rate for the 1st exam takers is 17%?

17% seems high....Where or who do we complain to? If results have been released isn’t that their final decision? 

[LittleDaisy]

7 hours ago, Chimichuri said:

17% seems high....Where or who do we complain to? If results have been released isn’t that their final decision? 

I am thinking that they might lower passingscore for next year. A lot of program directors have been complaining to MCC, PGME does get the results as they need to confirm 12 months of postgraduate training with your program . Individually, I don't know how you can complain. They did send out a post lmcc2 survey not too long ago to a few of my friends .

 

17% is for first time exam takers including IMG and CMGs, it's based on speculation. MCC hasn't released their final stats yet.

[098123]

I'm certainly no expert in stats.. but my interpretation of the results seems to indicate that roughly 20% of test-takers are now failing based on this new scoring scale...

Anyone with more knowledge on statistics, please feel free to correct!

 

[LittleDaisy]

That sounds about right, I am not sure how long MCC will release its annual report.

I think if the PGME and PD pressures MCC a lot regarding the approximately 20% failure rate, they might change the exam hopefully or lower the passing score. 

[designed]

FYI, with a mean of 150 and SD of 20, the area under the curve to the left of 138 is 0.2743, meaning if the scores were indeed normally distributed, the fail rate is 27.43%. 

 

I just googled “normal distribution calculator” and just plugged in the numbers. 

[098123]

45 minutes ago, designed said:

FYI, with a mean of 150 and SD of 20, the area under the curve to the left of 138 is 0.2743, meaning if the scores were indeed normally distributed, the fail rate is 27.43%. 

 

I just googled “normal distribution calculator” and just plugged in the numbers. 

Even better! Wow.. a fail rate of 27% is absolutely unheard of for an exam like this. Not sure how this can continue and be sustainable..

[hamham]

27% failure rate is ridiculous, especially for an exam like this that does a pretty bad job in assessing your actual clinical skills. That said, there will always be complainers, whether failure rate is 10% or 30%, and until more is done about the passing criteria (I suspect things will change in future), you just need to figure out a way to pass this stupid exam (if you fail) so that you can move on with your life. Practice with friends, seek help from Faculty etc won't guarantee a pass, and they will all help.

[windsormd1]

Keep your head up; this examination doesn't reflect one's medical knowledge/skills; it's another one in a line of hoops that these bureaucrats have imposed upon physicians.

[LittleDaisy]

On 6/25/2019 at 7:11 PM, hamham said:

27% failure rate is ridiculous, especially for an exam like this that does a pretty bad job in assessing your actual clinical skills. That said, there will always be complainers, whether failure rate is 10% or 30%, and until more is done about the passing criteria (I suspect things will change in future), you just need to figure out a way to pass this stupid exam (if you fail) so that you can move on with your life. Practice with friends, seek help from Faculty etc won't guarantee a pass, and they will all help.

I highly suspect that they will change the passing score in the near future, given that 27% failre (if it is confirmed) is very high for a national licensing exam. 

[IMislove]

1 hour ago, LittleDaisy said:

I highly suspect that they will change the passing score in the near future, given that 27% failre (if it is confirmed) is very high for a national licensing exam. 

In my past career, we had one year they had a 40% fail rate, maybe two years, but otherwise it stays around 25%-30% or so, so maybe it isn't far out of the realm of possibility if they want to keep it difficult. We do invest a lot more time and money though with medicine, but the stakes of not being ready to work are higher in medicine than in my past field. Just a thought.

[Hanmari]

On 7/3/2019 at 10:54 AM, IMislove said:

In my past career, we had one year they had a 40% fail rate, maybe two years, but otherwise it stays around 25%-30% or so, so maybe it isn't far out of the realm of possibility if they want to keep it difficult. We do invest a lot more time and money though with medicine, but the stakes of not being ready to work are higher in medicine than in my past field. Just a thought. 

You could get zero on this exam and you'd still be "ready to work" if you did your residency and passed your royal college/CFPC

[IMislove]

17 hours ago, Hanmari said:

You could get zero on this exam and you'd still be "ready to work" if you did your residency and passed your royal college/CFPC

My apologies, may have gotten some of the exams mixed up then. So is it the standard to pass is too high then? 

Edit: to clarify, our exam wasn’t typically day to day topics but more specialized and things you may never ever see in your career depending where you go. Still it dictates whether you work or not even though your base knowledge is good. 

[Bimpybimpy]

On 6/19/2019 at 1:44 PM, LittleDaisy said:

 

 

[JKM]

Hi. I am planning to take the exam in May 2020. Would someone have a list of previous stations and happy to share, please?

[MDFD]

Hello, 

I also failed the MCCQE2 in the October 2019 sitting, but I am in a horrible position as I was supposed to rewrite the MCCQE2 May 2020, which was then cancelled. I was then supposed to write October 2020, which was cancelled, and now the MCC who previously told us the exam would be rescheduled for early 2021, will not be offering the MCCQE2 until May 2021. I have since finished residency, but I am unable to get a provisional license to practice due to my previous attempt at the MCCQE2. I am aware that I can apply for the exam exempt license however the next meeting to discuss applications for the college isn't until March. So I am a trained doctor who completed residency in Canada, I have completed my specialty exam but I cannot work. I have contacted the MCC, and they do not care... Is anyone else in this position? Anyone have any suggestions? 

Thanks! 

[shikimate]

48 minutes ago, MDFD said:

Hello, 

I also failed the MCCQE2 in the October 2019 sitting, but I am in a horrible position as I was supposed to rewrite the MCCQE2 May 2020, which was then cancelled. I was then supposed to write October 2020, which was cancelled, and now the MCC who previously told us the exam would be rescheduled for early 2021, will not be offering the MCCQE2 until May 2021. I have since finished residency, but I am unable to get a provisional license to practice due to my previous attempt at the MCCQE2. I am aware that I can apply for the exam exempt license however the next meeting to discuss applications for the college isn't until March. So I am a trained doctor who completed residency in Canada, I have completed my specialty exam but I cannot work. I have contacted the MCC, and they do not care... Is anyone else in this position? Anyone have any suggestions? 

Thanks! 

 

Tough situation. USMLE Step 2 CS is also suspended so USA route may be tough, although I heard some state boards are making exceptions because of exceptional demand for healthcare workers due to COVID, so maybe worth inquiring? I wonder if Australia/NZ and other commonwealth might offer some kind of reciprocity for your training?

[Findanus]

Should there be a movement to end this relic of an exam, or allow general practice rights for those that hold a full LMCC license? As of now it serves no purpose but to enrich the coffers of the MCC.

 

I fail to see any reason for the MCC's continued existence. The CCFP and FRCPC establish practice readiness. Medical schools establish one's fit for starting a residency. General practice is no longer a reality. Why are these exams still required?

 

How would one go about eliminating this pointless exam, and its pointless predecessor, from our world?

 

For what it is worth, the NBME in the USA lowered the pass rate for their version of the LMCC2 after complaints were levied against it as being an English proficiency exam. It seems the MCC employed the same dirty tactics here too.

[Findanus]

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[GH0ST]

The problem is that the MCC has shown in their official communication statement that they have zero intention of cancelling the exam and also insulted residents across the country, stating that the desire to cancel the exam is misinformed or misunderstood (I forgot the specific wording). I'm beginning to think unless there's a massive boycott of the exam across the country that this exam will never be eliminated. That said, I doubt many residents would take that risk and would rather just buckle down and finish asap. 

- G 

[indefatigable]

3 hours ago, GH0ST said:

The problem is that the MCC has shown in their official communication statement that they have zero intention of cancelling the exam and also insulted residents across the country, stating that the desire to cancel the exam is misinformed or misunderstood (I forgot the specific wording). I'm beginning to think unless there's a massive boycott of the exam across the country that this exam will never be eliminated. That said, I doubt many residents would take that risk and would rather just buckle down and finish asap. 

- G 

What concerned me most was the tone of the communiqué regarding the MCCQE-2 - I really don't think finding that there is a minority of people that "fail" shows that they're doing a great job or serving a useful purpose.  Numerous residents don't deal much with patients or interact in limited ways - so the MCCQE-2 is beyond pointless for their career training, but is extremely costly with lots of consequences for failing.  They failed to really mention that pretty clear distinction at all.    

The MCC could maybe argue that they're also sometimes "catching" people in say FM programs with deficiencies, but again that's undermining the purpose of CFPC and the residency training programs.  So, at best, sometimes, they're performing a "redundancy" check for standards that have been accepted for the past 30 years through other accreditation bodies.  Maybe at one point, the test was a "gold standard" for training, but so many things are changing in medicine, like the increased use of POCUS rather than relying exclusively on the physical exam, so it's reason for existence, especially at a PGY-2 or above level is decreased.  Right now, as I understand, they're trying to move to a "virtual" format where things will be described rather than done - but of course the price hasn't gone down.  I think this could be the "hidden purpose" of the exam at the moment, but I think it's then very passive-agressive and not constructive.  

The MCCQE-1 maybe/at best? could serve an independent purpose, as a P/F "check" on medical knowledge from medical schools, but the practice material and test is extremely costly, tests lots of obscure concepts, and even has typos!  Not to mention, the delivery of the MCCQE-1 remotely was full of problems and cause a lot of people distress for little real benefit.  

So, on the whole, I think the MCC is functioning less than optimally as an organisation with a dubious purpose especially with respect to the MCCQE-2, but represents the status quo of medical accreditation in Canada which no other body or organisation wants to go against, because of their power.  And it's probably run by people that went through general licensure and thus think it's crucial to "maintain standards" - testing many physicians on competencies that will be forever beyond their scope of practice under rules that have been in place for thirty years.  

[Aetherus]

On 11/17/2020 at 12:49 PM, Findanus said:

Should there be a movement to end this relic of an exam, or allow general practice rights for those that hold a full LMCC license? As of now it serves no purpose but to enrich the coffers of the MCC.

 

I fail to see any reason for the MCC's continued existence. The CCFP and FRCPC establish practice readiness. Medical schools establish one's fit for starting a residency. General practice is no longer a reality. Why are these exams still required?

 

How would one go about eliminating this pointless exam, and its pointless predecessor, from our world?

 

For what it is worth, the NBME in the USA lowered the pass rate for their version of the LMCC2 after complaints were levied against it as being an English proficiency exam. It seems the MCC employed the same dirty tactics here too.

My understanding is that the LMCC having two parts to parallel the American Exam is required to have our training considered equivalent to the US training. I think having this equivalence is nice for portability, but is especially important in terms of optics during contract negotiations. Having an easy way out of Canada puts pressure on the government during negotiations and helps us get better contracts.

[indefatigable]

14 minutes ago, Aetherus said:

My understanding is that the LMCC having two parts to parallel the American Exam is required to have our training considered equivalent to the US training. I think having this equivalence is nice for portability, but is especially important in terms of optics during contract negotiations. Having an easy way out of Canada puts pressure on the government during negotiations and helps us get better contracts.

I can understand the interest in keeping the LMCC if that were the case, but my understanding is that Royal College equivalence is a separate program by program process.  For example, I think NeuroSurg isn't considered equivalent to US training despite the fact that it's a 6 year program in Canada.  Physicians that do end up in the US seem to have to take MLEs most of the time to satisfy standard visa requirements.  

[Aetherus]

On 11/20/2020 at 6:01 PM, indefatigable said:

I can understand the interest in keeping the LMCC if that were the case, but my understanding is that Royal College equivalence is a separate program by program process.  For example, I think NeuroSurg isn't considered equivalent to US training despite the fact that it's a 6 year program in Canada.  Physicians that do end up in the US seem to have to take MLEs most of the time to satisfy standard visa requirements.  

I think these are two separate issues. I’m not talking about residency equivalence which determines if your residency training is considered equivalent but talking about if your medical degree is recognized in the state you are working in. You are correct that there are certain discrepancy in residency training that restricts your ability to practice certain specialities with canadian training. I think you are confounding doing the USMLE to get a H1b visa instead of a J1 which in certain states requires the USMLE (Florida is one that comes to mind). However getting an H1b visa and having your medical license recognized by the states are two separate issues. I do thing the LMCC plays a role although a very small one. If I’m wrong, please provide me with information disputing what I’m saying and I will gladly change my stance.