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Incoming McMaster medical student convicted of voyeurism

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5 hours ago, HisLovePerfects said:

 

The CPSO is acting on behalf of the government, so it is bound by the Charter (which provides for freedom of expression).

I mean that is an interesting point - technically we are a self directed profession and the CPSO is created and run by the doctors themselves, but permission to do that is granted by the province. No different than the many other professions with similar organizations (law, engineering....) for that matter.  I don't think that legally it is a branch of the government. 

 

 

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14 hours ago, rmorelan said:

I mean that is an interesting point - technically we are a self directed profession and the CPSO is created and run by the doctors themselves, but permission to do that is granted by the province. No different than the many other professions with similar organizations (law, engineering....) for that matter.  I don't think that legally it is a branch of the government.

Canadian courts have heard cases where regulatory bodies have been challenged for violating the Charter. For example, in CMDS v. CPSO, the courts had to decide whether the CPSO violated section 2(a) of the Charter, which provides freedom of religion. Obviously, if the CPSO must obey 2(a), it also must obey 2(b). In general though I think Canadian courts give professional regulatory bodies a lot of leeway in how much they're able to restrict freedom of expression.

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20 hours ago, HisLovePerfects said:

 

The CPSO is acting on behalf of the government, so it is bound by the Charter (which provides for freedom of expression).

 

I don't think any of the regulatory colleges are a branch of the government even if their mandate is to protect the public. They are comprised of members of that profession and funded through annual dues. Every college I'm familiar with has a responsibility to ensure that members are not putting the profession in disrepute which means that your private life is unfortunately subject to judgement. 

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3 minutes ago, HisLovePerfects said:

Canadian courts have heard cases where regulatory bodies have been challenged for violating the Charter. For example, in CMDS v. CPSO, the courts had to decide whether the CPSO violated section 2(a) of the Charter, which provides freedom of religion. Obviously, if the CPSO must obey 2(a), it also must obey 2(b). In general though I think Canadian courts give professional regulatory bodies a lot of leeway in how much they're able to restrict freedom of expression.

You can challenge any policy based on a reasonable argument. However, I believe in that case the courts ruled that the benefits of the policies outweighed the harm to the small number of physicians that would be affected. There is no constitutional right to be a certain professional. Our personal rights are also limited by societal needs. 

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2 hours ago, blah1234 said:

You can challenge any policy based on a reasonable argument. However, I believe in that case the courts ruled that the benefits of the policies outweighed the harm to the small number of physicians that would be affected. There is no constitutional right to be a certain professional. Our personal rights are also limited by societal needs.  

I'm not saying whether the CPSO is right or wrong to follow the policies that they have chosen. I'm simply saying that they are in fact bound to respect freedom of expression, because they are not a private organization. Like all regulatory bodies, it uses the power of the government to regulate medicine. It doesn't matter what CMDS v CPSO decided, the fact that it was even heard proves that the CPSO has to follow the Charter.

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On 7/19/2019 at 12:28 AM, HisLovePerfects said:

I'm not saying whether the CPSO is right or wrong to follow the policies that they have chosen. I'm simply saying that they are in fact bound to respect freedom of expression, because they are not a private organization. Like all regulatory bodies, it uses the power of the government to regulate medicine. It doesn't matter what CMDS v CPSO decided, the fact that it was even heard proves that the CPSO has to follow the Charter.

I think there's a couple of issues at play here.

1) Is the CPSO a branch of the government?

Regulatory colleges are legal entities that are given their powers and responsibilities by acts of parliament. They exist to protect the public so that the government does not directly have to step in. They are funded by membership dues and are governed by members instead of being given a budget by the provincial government and having management and hiring done by the province. Yes, they do enforce things based on the Regulated Health Professions Act, but that doesn't mean they are a branch of the government much like how convenience stores are not a branch of the government for checking IDs for the Tobacco Act. Also, the public can't easily access CPSO finances or governance minutes unlike other government entities where this information is published and freely available. 

2) Does hearing a case means it has to follow the Charter?

In courts of first instance the bar for having a case thrown out for being frivolous is pretty high. If you made the case that you think "the college needs to be bound by freedom of expression as a government entity because it exists to carry out a government function" that would honestly be reasonable enough that the courts will hear it. Hearing a case does not mean you have a good chance of winning it just means you paid your dues and filed a claim that wasn't completely ridiculous. I don't even think it means that the interpretation of the situation has to be valid for you to be heard as that is the point of going to court. The judge will determine on the basis of both matter of law and matter of fact to ascertain which side is correct. 

3) What does case law say about freedom of expression and professional regulation?

As I have mentioned before I think it's been clear that professionals have more stringent limits to their freedom of expression than the general public which has been shown in many court decisions. Unique privileges must come with oversight even if it makes our individual lives harder. 

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My friends at Mac say that this student is still in their class and didn't end up losing his medical acceptance - what a world

Sorry for digging up this thread, but can find nothing else anywhere - unsure as to how the system really works anymore

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5 hours ago, rheumroom said:

 

My friends at Mac say that this student is still in their class and didn't end up losing his medical acceptance - what a world

Sorry for digging up this thread, but can find nothing else anywhere - unsure as to how the system really works anymore

Has the court case been resolved?

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On 3/4/2020 at 9:28 PM, rheumroom said:

 

My friends at Mac say that this student is still in their class and didn't end up losing his medical acceptance - what a world

Sorry for digging up this thread, but can find nothing else anywhere - unsure as to how the system really works anymore

If this is true, then I'm not really surprised .. as med schools tend to aggressively defend their students once they are admitted. It's in the school's interest to graduate as many doctors as possible, since dismissing a student would be a waste of institutional and federal resources. Regulatory agencies such as professional colleges are the ones who generally issue punitive measures.

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On 3/4/2020 at 10:58 PM, rheumroom said:

 

My friends at Mac say that this student is still in their class and didn't end up losing his medical acceptance - what a world

Sorry for digging up this thread, but can find nothing else anywhere - unsure as to how the system really works anymore

Wow, this is upsetting. I would feel very uncomfortable as a classmate and would be very upset with admin for putting his classmates through this. I understand innocent until proven guilty but it's not all about him - it's about the safety and security of the other students as well.

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On 3/4/2020 at 9:28 PM, rheumroom said:

 

My friends at Mac say that this student is still in their class and didn't end up losing his medical acceptance - what a world

Sorry for digging up this thread, but can find nothing else anywhere - unsure as to how the system really works anymore

This is untrue. The person was always removed from the class pending resolution of the case. They never started with the class of 2022. The class size is 205, rather than the usual 206. 

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On 7/16/2019 at 6:31 AM, LittleDaisy said:

What I am more concerned about is that CPSO in Ontario, they highly punish physicians from any sort of inappropriate actions and publish their "presumed behaviours" online without proving that they are guilty on the first case. Or they punish heavily for frivolous behaviours that shouldn't have been looked at in the first place. 

For example, a few physicians were suspended of their licenses because they published inappropriate social comments after the fruitless OMA negotiation with Liberal government. This is outrageous, because they are sanctioning what physicians do with their freedom of speech outside of their professional lives. Are CPSO monitoring physicians outside of their work to ensure that they act as a "physician" in their personal lives? Are they tracking down physicians on social media? In other professions, this would be regarded as a breach of our privacy and freedom of speech. 

https://justanoldcountrydoctor.com/2018/09/19/can-the-cpso-regain-the-trust-of-physicians/

I will not embarrass these physicians more by linking to media reports, but I will state for that record that the following physicians were disciplined, paid at least $10,000 each to the CPSO, and publicly shamed:

  • one physician, who replied to an anonymous email address with “stop sending me these f$%@#$ emails”
  • A physician who called Health Minster Eric Hoskins a “reichmaster” on facebook
  • Another physician who called Hoskins a “F@$% P#$&*” on facebook
  • A physician, who told a clearly inappropriate joke on a private electronic forum"

This makes me worried to how far CPSO goes to monitor physicians outside of their professional lives on social media, for them to look "respectable" and highly "just" to the public?

That is  good point. Where do they draw the line in monitoring physicians? Freedom of speech and public image have to be balanced. 

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38 minutes ago, Peanuts29 said:

It is scary to think that now without interviews, even more people like him could be a part of the entering McMaster class. 

You got into multiple schools and are declining your Mac offer, congratulations. But c'mon, seriously?

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1 hour ago, Peanuts29 said:

It is scary to think that now without interviews, even more people like him could be a part of the entering McMaster class. 

There’s all kinds of people. People can be like gold cups on the outside and do well in an interview, but on the inside is just full of darkness. 

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