Jump to content
Premed 101 Forums
Compton

Federal Election 2019

Med0123

This discussion is getting heated.  We are all adults and I think this thread should be kept open, but I would ask everyone to take a step back, realize that this is a public forum and try to have a tempered and collegial discussion of the relevant healthcare topics associated with the federal elections. Thank you.

Message added by Med0123

cleanup

The OP (Compton) has requested that I close the thread as he believes it has derailed from its original intention. Have a good night everyone and fingers crossed people have come away from the posts with something new learned or realized. Cheers. 

Message added by cleanup

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, mdplsacceptme said:

Wow you are deluded. "People from middle east/Africa hop on a plane and walk over" really? They are often fleeing war or some kind of instability. I think it is our responsibility to help them. While I disagree with YesIcan's view that all conservatives are racist, what you're saying is totally ignorant. Also Bill21 sucks and anyone that supports bullshit like that is racist. Goodbye

So you want to help people first who go around the legal immigration system and are (quite literally) jumping the line? How is that fair to people like my parents who go to the embassy, fill out paperwork and follow the process? There are even asylum seekers in Lebanon who want protection and are fleeing violence but cannot afford to take a flight to the US and cross the border on foot. Is it fair that these people cannot walk over facing similar instability? In the end, it should be a fair system for everybody and people shouldn't be allowed to cue-jump and stay in hotels at the taxpayers expense due to backlog in IRCC. And those people that crossed illegally are not going back , even if asylum is rejected due to the amount of appeals in our system. Instead, all that money the government has spent on illegal migrants should be going to fix our healthcare system (i.e. wait times) or veterans. 

As for Bill 21, you've basically labelled most of Quebec as racist since polls have shown roughly 65% of Quebec somewhat or totally supports it (notice JT has said he won't discuss Bill 21 since its an election and doesn't want to piss off his voter base by saying he'd interfere and join the court challenge?). So most of Quebec liberals are racist yeah?

"I didn't say it was racist to not support those things, do not put words in my mouth. Its cringeworthy for an Arab to vote conservative, lmao you should hear what your fellow conservative supporters truly think about your kind behind your back"

Its cringeworthy to think you'd support a liberal party that has corruption written all over it and a Prime Minister who, quite frankly, will keep raising taxes and isolate Canada on the world stage with his "selfie photo ops". He didn't do politics differently and could care less about helping the middle class. If he wins again, he'll come after the health professions to pay more in taxes since he cannot afford to keep high limits of spending. And of course I know there are conservatives who have "right-wing, extremist views" against people like me. However, at least I can bring up their concerns and have common ground with them, especially in my riding. Not all arabs are liberal supporters and there is nothing "cringeworthy" about it, I'm willing to bridge the gap and work with them. You can keep talking about your concerns with Scheer and the conservatives while I do everything I can to hope Trudeau does not get a majority on Oct. 21.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Pepsi905 said:

So you want to help people first who go around the legal immigration system and are (quite literally) jumping the line? How is that fair to people like my parents who go to the embassy, fill out paperwork and follow the process? There are even asylum seekers in Lebanon who want protection and are fleeing violence but cannot afford to take a flight to the US and cross the border on foot. Is it fair that these people cannot walk over facing similar instability? In the end, it should be a fair system for everybody and people shouldn't be allowed to cue-jump and stay in hotels at the taxpayers expense due to backlog in IRCC. And those people that crossed illegally are not going back , even if asylum is rejected due to the amount of appeals in our system. Instead, all that money the government has spent on illegal migrants should be going to fix our healthcare system (i.e. wait times) or veterans. 

As for Bill 21, you've basically labelled most of Quebec as racist since polls have shown roughly 65% of Quebec somewhat or totally supports it (notice JT has said he won't discuss Bill 21 since its an election and doesn't want to piss off his voter base by saying he'd interfere and join the court challenge?). So most of Quebec liberals are racist yeah?

"I didn't say it was racist to not support those things, do not put words in my mouth. Its cringeworthy for an Arab to vote conservative, lmao you should hear what your fellow conservative supporters truly think about your kind behind your back"

Its cringeworthy to think you'd support a liberal party that has corruption written all over it and a Prime Minister who, quite frankly, will keep raising taxes and isolate Canada on the world stage with his "selfie photo ops". He didn't do politics differently and could care less about helping the middle class. If he wins again, he'll come after the health professions to pay more in taxes since he cannot afford to keep high limits of spending. And of course I know there are conservatives who have "right-wing, extremist views" against people like me. However, at least I can bring up their concerns and have common ground with them, especially in my riding. Not all arabs are liberal supporters and there is nothing "cringeworthy" about it, I'm willing to bridge the gap and work with them. You can keep talking about your concerns with Scheer and the conservatives while I do everything I can to hope Trudeau does not get a majority on Oct. 21.

I never said the immigration system was fair. I wish there was a better way around it and I'm open to hearing other ideas. My own family and I waited for over 8 years to get citizenship so I understand the struggle. But I do think if we are putting our tax money anywhere, it should be towards helping people (Canadians+others). Also asylum seekers are not jumping the line - https://globalnews.ca/news/3278168/reality-check-are-asylum-seekers-queue-jumping-and-other-key-questions/ you can read more. Thats a common lie that Scheer keeps spreading

 And yes, I agree we should be fixing our healthcare system. But I dont see how Conservatives are doing that. Look at what Ford's plans are for Ontario and Kennys plans are for Alberta. All I see are cuts to healthcare/public health and movement towards a privatized healthcare system. If Conservatives really want to help Canadians, why don't they address some of the biggest issues like the opioid crisis? Why cut funding that supports life saving interventions such as supervised injection sites? 

Bill21 is racist. The people most targeted by this bill are POC so yes, I stand by what I said. I have no problems with being secular, but how exactly does this bill promote secularism? People should have the right to express their religious beliefs without any consequences if we're living in a liberal society. Trudeau has openly said he disagrees with Bill21. Theres nothing more he needs to say. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, mdplsacceptme said:

I never said the immigration system was fair. I wish there was a better way around it and I'm open to hearing other ideas. My own family and I waited for over 8 years to get citizenship so I understand the struggle. But I do think if we are putting our tax money anywhere, it should be towards helping people (Canadians+others). Also asylum seekers are not jumping the line - https://globalnews.ca/news/3278168/reality-check-are-asylum-seekers-queue-jumping-and-other-key-questions/ you can read more. Thats a common lie that Scheer keeps spreading

 And yes, I agree we should be fixing our healthcare system. But I dont see how Conservatives are doing that. Look at what Ford's plans are for Ontario and Kennys plans are for Alberta. All I see are cuts to healthcare/public health and movement towards a privatized healthcare system. If Conservatives really want to help Canadians, why don't they address some of the biggest issues like the opioid crisis? Why cut funding that supports life saving interventions such as supervised injection sites? 

Bill21 is racist. The people most targeted by this bill are POC so yes, I stand by what I said. I have no problems with being secular, but how exactly does this bill promote secularism? People should have the right to express their religious beliefs without any consequences if we're living in a liberal society. Trudeau has openly said he disagrees with Bill21. Theres nothing more he needs to say. 

Yes we should help others but shouldn't we help Canadians already here? There are tons of immigrants that come to Canada every single year through the legal immigration system. Why can't we help them settle? And I've seen that link...these people are literally walking across Roxham Road in Quebec, and claiming asylum with RCMP helping them with their suitcases. They get processed and put in a cue that has a 20 month backlog while physically staying in Canada. On top, they get healthcare first, eligibility is asked later (https://globalnews.ca/news/3690481/asylum-seekers-benefits-eligibility/). You can only imagine the pressure on the healthcare system with 55,000 asylum seekers in the GTA and parts of Montreal (bulk of them go here). So aren't they getting ahead of those in foreign countries who are waiting for their asylum applications to be processed, while not setting foot in Canada yet? On top of that, these people know their asylum claims will probably be rejected (criminal history, dual asylum applications, etc.) but stay put to get government housing (hotels in some instances - Radisson in Toronto), health care access and welfare cheques. To compound this, only ~900 people have been deported, even though >5000 people have their applications denied (https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/cbsa-irregular-migrants-removed_ca_5d168da6e4b082e553693b14). Most won't even leave and will stay by exhausting appeals over 5-7 years and claiming humanitarian assistance. Canada doesn't even have the resources to deport them or keep track (https://globalnews.ca/news/5746288/cbsa-officers-more-resources-failed-asylum-claimants-union/). In my own riding, there is backlash against these people since the federal government won't pay for it, leaving it to the provinces and municipalities to foot the bill. My municipal tax rate keeps going up to pay for them, its frustrating. Ontario quoted ~200 million in expenses (definitely exaggerated but even ~120 million is a lot). Yes JT finally put an end to asylum shopping but did it in an election year to say he did "something". At least the conservatives will close the loophole and make it clear to apply for asylum, do it through the legal system.

Yes I agree that conservatives cut in healthcare and programs and spend in useless areas (changing Ontario slogan sign - really Ford?), but we can't keep spending all the time either. We have to pay that debt back some day, either through cuts or higher taxes, and we already have high taxes. Ford messed up the autism cuts and Kenny is heading down the wrong path with his plan to cut back healthcare so I know the Conservatives need to do more public consultation on these matters. The opoid crisis needs to be addressed, similarly in Manitoba too. Hope the premier getting re-elected in Manitoba realizes it needs to fix healthcare and the crisis at hand.

Investing in healthcare and education should be a priority, but looking at inefficiencies and abuses in the system is important. OSAP was poorly run under the liberals (free grants to those who didn't need it - ex. med students whose parents paid for their education but still received a 10,000 grant) but Ford messed it up. He should have kept some grants for low SES and made the majority of OSAP full loans, no grants with an extended interest-free window. But he took the extreme approach and cut back a lot to reduce the deficit. But looking at the bigger picture, the people voted in PC governments nationwide (Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario, NB, PEI) over the last year and it somewhat demonstrates frustration with liberal/NDP policies. Alberta may never vote in a NDP government with a united right and Sask/Manitoba may follow in the same path. 

As for Bill 21, Scheer says he would not implement it at the federal level, nor challenge it in court and stands up for religious freedom. Isn't that in line with JT right now on the campaign trail (although JT may join the court process if he wins the election)? My viewpoint on Bill 21 is its a provincial matter and even though it is racist, its Quebec's decision and if the people support it, the rest of Canada shouldn't intervene. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Pepsi905 said:

Yes we should help others but shouldn't we help Canadians already here? There are tons of immigrants that come to Canada every single year through the legal immigration system. Why can't we help them settle? And I've seen that link...these people are literally walking across Roxham Road in Quebec, and claiming asylum with RCMP helping them with their suitcases. They get processed and put in a cue that has a 20 month backlog while physically staying in Canada. On top, they get healthcare first, eligibility is asked later (https://globalnews.ca/news/3690481/asylum-seekers-benefits-eligibility/). You can only imagine the pressure on the healthcare system with 55,000 asylum seekers in the GTA and parts of Montreal (bulk of them go here). So aren't they getting ahead of those in foreign countries who are waiting for their asylum applications to be processed, while not setting foot in Canada yet? On top of that, these people know their asylum claims will probably be rejected (criminal history, dual asylum applications, etc.) but stay put to get government housing (hotels in some instances - Radisson in Toronto), health care access and welfare cheques. To compound this, only ~900 people have been deported, even though >5000 people have their applications denied (https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/cbsa-irregular-migrants-removed_ca_5d168da6e4b082e553693b14). Most won't even leave and will stay by exhausting appeals over 5-7 years and claiming humanitarian assistance. Canada doesn't even have the resources to deport them or keep track (https://globalnews.ca/news/5746288/cbsa-officers-more-resources-failed-asylum-claimants-union/). In my own riding, there is backlash against these people since the federal government won't pay for it, leaving it to the provinces and municipalities to foot the bill. My municipal tax rate keeps going up to pay for them, its frustrating. Ontario quoted ~200 million in expenses (definitely exaggerated but even ~120 million is a lot). Yes JT finally put an end to asylum shopping but did it in an election year to say he did "something". At least the conservatives will close the loophole and make it clear to apply for asylum, do it through the legal system.

Yes I agree that conservatives cut in healthcare and programs and spend in useless areas (changing Ontario slogan sign - really Ford?), but we can't keep spending all the time either. We have to pay that debt back some day, either through cuts or higher taxes, and we already have high taxes. Ford messed up the autism cuts and Kenny is heading down the wrong path with his plan to cut back healthcare so I know the Conservatives need to do more public consultation on these matters. The opoid crisis needs to be addressed, similarly in Manitoba too. Hope the premier getting re-elected in Manitoba realizes it needs to fix healthcare and the crisis at hand.

Investing in healthcare and education should be a priority, but looking at inefficiencies and abuses in the system is important. OSAP was poorly run under the liberals (free grants to those who didn't need it - ex. med students whose parents paid for their education but still received a 10,000 grant) but Ford messed it up. He should have kept some grants for low SES and made the majority of OSAP full loans, no grants with an extended interest-free window. But he took the extreme approach and cut back a lot to reduce the deficit. But looking at the bigger picture, the people voted in PC governments nationwide (Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario, NB, PEI) over the last year and it somewhat demonstrates frustration with liberal/NDP policies. Alberta may never vote in a NDP government with a united right and Sask/Manitoba may follow in the same path. 

As for Bill 21, Scheer says he would not implement it at the federal level, nor challenge it in court and stands up for religious freedom. Isn't that in line with JT right now on the campaign trail (although JT may join the court process if he wins the election)? My viewpoint on Bill 21 is its a provincial matter and even though it is racist, its Quebec's decision and if the people support it, the rest of Canada shouldn't intervene. 

So what are you suggesting? People seeking asylum shouldn't have access to healthcare services? The services available to them are limited, its not the same coverage refugees coming from overseas receive. Yes this burdens the healthcare system, but there are many other things that also burden the healthcare system such as lack of access to drugs, lack of preventative measures + cutting public health funding. Its clear Scheer does not support Pharmacare and we've already seen whats happening to healthcare in Ontario and Alberta. I do agree with you that we need a balance but unfortunately it comes down to choosing the lesser of 2 evils

Also just because 65% of Quebec votes in favour of Bill 21 doesn't make it right. People have lost their jobs because of this bill. Lets start thinking about these Canadians as well. And as for Scheer, I don't trust him. I don't like his takes on foreign policy, environmental policies or healthcare policies so I will not be voting for his party. There is absolutely nothing progressive about him. This is *my* opinion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have an itchy trigger finger in this topic.

Jk let's please not talk about guns too.

But yeah, let's keep it civil, folks. I think a zoomed-out perspective in which we all recognize that we all have our own biases and blind spots with respect to politics is healthy. Let's all practice radical open-mindedness with each other's opinions. Entertain the idea that you may not have all the information, and that you are the product of your environment as well as the people you spend time with and speak to. We all live in echo chambers. Let's be mindful of the fact that we can all learn more from each other; there are no fences here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, cleanup said:

But yeah, let's keep it civil, folks. I think a zoomed-out perspective in which we all recognize that we all have our own biases and blind spots with respect to politics is healthy. Let's all practice radical open-mindedness with each other's opinions. Entertain the idea that you may not have all the information, and that you are the product of your environment as well as the people you spend time with and speak to. We all live in echo chambers. Let's be mindful of the fact that we can all learn more from each other; there are no fences here.

This is truly fantastic. Wow, it is rare to see someone post something like this on the internet. Open-minded and reasonable. Whoever you are, your patients are lucky to have you. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, John Galt MD said:

This is truly fantastic. Wow, it is rare to see someone post something like this on the internet. Open-minded and reasonable. Whoever you are, your patients are lucky to have you. 

It's not, really. It's just a sense of self-awareness and open-mindedness. To me, those are "Step 1" to "how to be a good person" and "how to improve your life in the direction you want to."

Personally I don't see any reason in discussion if one or both parties are completely surefooted in their views and their only goal is to convince or persuade the other party that they, in fact, are wrong, and the only refuge lies in a concession. What a pointless, directionless, destructive process that is.

If things were so black and white, they wouldn't be so difficult, now would they? Perform a thought experiment... consider, which is more likely: that this person you're talking to is so damn stupid that they couldn't possibly be more wrong and you're so incredibly right that your opinions are not only stalwart, unshakable and reliable but also impervious to gaps in logic and reasoning... or that everyone, yourself and this other person included, are fallible, stubborn, often misguided and ill-informed, and usually fail to understand that the magnitude of what they don't know far outstrips what they do know?

We really do over-estimate ourselves in how apparently intelligent and above-average we are, as well as how misinformed and sub-human others are. Where this social fallacy came from, I have no idea, but I think if we all tried to undo some of it, the world would be a better place, regardless of which direction it goes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, cleanup said:

It's not, really. It's just a sense of self-awareness and open-mindedness. To me, those are "Step 1" to "how to be a good person" and "how to improve your life in the direction you want to."

Personally I don't see any reason in discussion if one or both parties are completely surefooted in their views and their only goal is to convince or persuade the other party that they, in fact, are wrong, and the only refuge lies in a concession. What a pointless, directionless, destructive process that is.

If things were so black and white, they wouldn't be so difficult, now would they? Perform a thought experiment... consider, which is more likely: that this person you're talking to is so damn stupid that they couldn't possibly be more wrong and you're so incredibly right that your opinions are not only stalwart, unshakable and reliable but also impervious to gaps in logic and reasoning... or that everyone, yourself and this other person included, are fallible, stubborn, often misguided and ill-informed, and usually fail to understand that the magnitude of what they don't know far outstrips what they do know?

We really do over-estimate ourselves in how apparently intelligent and above-average we are, as well as how misinformed and sub-human others are. Where this social fallacy came from, I have no idea, but I think if we all tried to undo some of it, the world would be a better place, regardless of which direction it goes.

Fine ideology to have but the danger is you always assume things aren't black and white, when that's obviously not the case. Fact and fiction still exist, some things are true and some things aren't. Just because something is a hot topic today doesn't mean it's "grey", there are issues that we had settled 50 years ago that for one reason or another we have to once again consider in contention today. 

The key is to ask yourself why certain things are hot topics and certain things aren't. Why is the mainstream discussion always about things like immigrants/refugees and taking away "entitlements", and not about the excesses of the wealthy and the powerful. There's a reason for this. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Recently, I have come to a realization I felt some might be interested in. This particularly applies to liberals. I say that as a person who voted liberal, identifies as liberal. This election will likely vote green.  With those disclosures out of the way it is this.

No one, and I mean no one likes being made to feel that they don't have choice. I say this because I look back on the brexit vote, on trump v hilary, and likely the upcoming trudeau v scheer. Core themes I have noticed from liberals lately is a steady steer away from describing why picking them is good. What policies they have to offer, what they will offer the average joe, why a person is empowered by voting for them. 

Instead they have reflexively moved towards almost like you have to. "what kind of visible minority would vote conservative". It usually seems to get set up in a way that almost assumes someone is un-educated, prejudiced or wrong for not voting liberal. No one likes feeling like they have to do something. 

Yes the conservatives take on immigration is not great. However, the liberals have certainly had their hands full with other blunders and scandals. To just say nope how could you possibly vote conservative, then not address other important issues in this election or sell why a person should vote liberal beyond you shouldn't vote conservative it won't work. 

Certainly trump had analytic companies working for him as described in the news, similar to the leave brexit movement. However, the democrats essentially saying you have to vote hilary because trump is shitty, racist - and if you vote for him you are too. It doesn't bode well with people to be told what to do. 

All I am saying is in the last few years there seems to have been a liberal movement toward conservative = racist, bad, you can't do that. Alienate people for even looking at it, and it can play badly. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MarsRover said:

Recently, I have come to a realization I felt some might be interested in. This particularly applies to liberals. I say that as a person who voted liberal, identifies as liberal. This election will likely vote green.  With those disclosures out of the way it is this.

No one, and I mean no one likes being made to feel that they don't have choice. I say this because I look back on the brexit vote, on trump v hilary, and likely the upcoming trudeau v scheer. Core themes I have noticed from liberals lately is a steady steer away from describing why picking them is good. What policies they have to offer, what they will offer the average joe, why a person is empowered by voting for them. 

Instead they have reflexively moved towards almost like you have to. "what kind of visible minority would vote conservative". It usually seems to get set up in a way that almost assumes someone is un-educated, prejudiced or wrong for not voting liberal. No one likes feeling like they have to do something. 

Yes the conservatives take on immigration is not great. However, the liberals have certainly had their hands full with other blunders and scandals. To just say nope how could you possibly vote conservative, then not address other important issues in this election or sell why a person should vote liberal beyond you shouldn't vote conservative it won't work. 

Certainly trump had analytic companies working for him as described in the news, similar to the leave brexit movement. However, the democrats essentially saying you have to vote hilary because trump is shitty, racist - and if you vote for him you are too. It doesn't bode well with people to be told what to do. 

All I am saying is in the last few years there seems to have been a liberal movement toward conservative = racist, bad, you can't do that. Alienate people for even looking at it, and it can play badly. 

lol buddy its not just the "conservatives take on immigration" and "not voting liberal makes you bad".....the whole conservative party ideology on social issues / immigration / non-White people / LGBT is messed up. The type of people the conservative party attracts is like no other major party in Canada. Go to any alt-right rally, white-supremacy webpage online, hell go talk to the "average" conservative voter and see what they think of visible minorities/refugees and you will get all you need to know. As a brown Muslim immigrant (who has experienced a multitude of racism , discrimnation and prejudice in my life) I would never vote for a party where not only the party's ideologies but the members of my party have racist hateful negative views on "my people".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, YesIcan55 said:

lol buddy its not just the "conservatives take on immigration" and "not voting liberal makes you bad".....the whole conservative party ideology on social issues / immigration / non-White people / LGBT is messed up. The type of people the conservative party attracts is like no other major party in Canada. Go to any alt-right rally, white-supremacy webpage online, hell go talk to the "average" conservative voter and see what they think of visible minorities/refugees and you will get all you need to know. As a brown Muslim immigrant (who has experienced a multitude of racism , discrimnation and prejudice in my life) I would never vote for a party where not only the party's ideologies but the members of my party have racist hateful negative views on "my people".

Yea, again I was not saying whether or not I supported the conservatives. Which I do not. I am saying that people who are on the middle of the spectrum and swing between voting liberal or conservative, don't like being told they have to vote liberal or they are X. 

 

It's also important to note that for example in the trump election analytic companies like cambridge analytica were able to make very detailed psychological profiles on voters, and created targeted ads that progressively become more pro-trump. Similar tactics were used in brexit. All i am saying is if middle of the road people are getting targeted ads telling them a variety of falsehoods and to think of the average joe, and then finally to make a choice and empower themselves. Then we as liberals say hey actually no you have to pick us cause the other peoples take on all these things are awful so you have to pick us. How do you think humans will interpret that? 

I'm not commenting on the conservatives policies, which I don't support. - Or the liberals who also have yes socially progressive policies but none the less issues with other things. I'm commenting on the social psychology and trends I have seen emerge in the last few years. 

After watching the movie brexit and documentaries on trump getting voted in, and critically evaluating the recent political discourse and comparing it to the past. There is certainly a new push that left-wing is the only reasonable choice. 

I agree left-wing is good, especially on environmental and green policies which I do not think the liberals do enough of. 

 

I'm just saying if people focus on compelling others to vote for them by showing what the liberal party can give them and what they stand to gain, as opposed to delving into why the conservatives are bad. People may feel they are being given more of a choice than being told they have to do something.  

 

EDIT: I mean just look how aggressive your comment to me was. I AM a liberal/left wing. Just pointing out ways we can realize our dialogue may alienate centrist people, and you get aggressive and discuss how all conservatives are essentially against minorities/lgbt/immigration. If I am a centrist deciding who to vote for and i look to the left and get treated as though I have to vote liberal because if i even consider conservative well we all know how bad they are, and on top of that if I don't follow the exact same values as you i'm going to get aggressive messages directed at me, why would I want to vote for that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, MarsRover said:

Yea, again I was not saying whether or not I supported the conservatives. Which I do not. I am saying that people who are on the middle of the spectrum and swing between voting liberal or conservative, don't like being told they have to vote liberal or they are X. 

 

It's also important to note that for example in the trump election analytic companies like cambridge analytica were able to make very detailed psychological profiles on voters, and created targeted ads that progressively become more pro-trump. Similar tactics were used in brexit. All i am saying is if middle of the road people are getting targeted ads telling them a variety of falsehoods and to think of the average joe, and then finally to make a choice and empower themselves. Then we as liberals say hey actually no you have to pick us cause the other peoples take on all these things are awful so you have to pick us. How do you think humans will interpret that? 

I'm not commenting on the conservatives policies, which I don't support. - Or the liberals who also have yes socially progressive policies but none the less issues with other things. I'm commenting on the social psychology and trends I have seen emerge in the last few years. 

After watching the movie brexit and documentaries on trump getting voted in, and critically evaluating the recent political discourse and comparing it to the past. There is certainly a new push that left-wing is the only reasonable choice. 

I agree left-wing is good, especially on environmental and green policies which I do not think the liberals do enough of. 

 

I'm just saying if people focus on compelling others to vote for them by showing what the liberal party can give them and what they stand to gain, as opposed to delving into why the conservatives are bad. People may feel they are being given more of a choice than being told they have to do something.  

 

EDIT: I mean just look how aggressive your comment to me was. I AM a liberal/left wing. Just pointing out ways we can realize our dialogue may alienate centrist people, and you get aggressive and discuss how all conservatives are essentially against minorities/lgbt/immigration. If I am a centrist deciding who to vote for and i look to the left and get treated as though I have to vote liberal because if i even consider conservative well we all know how bad they are, and on top of that if I don't follow the exact same values as you i'm going to get aggressive messages directed at me, why would I want to vote for that?

This is extremely well written and explains how many people (myself included) feel. Don't vote liberal and your scolded/not with "our people". I'm an Asian immigrant with dark skin, yet I don't vote liberal. But if someone votes conservative and is a dark skin immigrant (African/Arab/Asian, etc.), should that be cringeworthy as someone noted earlier? I would hope not. But that type of rhetoric will just alienate people and push them towards an outsider to go against the status quo. The liberals don't have my vote, neither do the conservatives. But the conservatives are not full of white supremacists, racist individuals either. This stuff is the reason why people like Trump get elected. And quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Trump is elected in 2020 due to the constant Democratic policies and rhetoric against Trump that will shift the people in key states to vote red again, regardless of what Trump says or does. Anyways, I started this thread to get an idea as to what people thought about the upcoming election and policies important for them. My riding is in a key swing area but not sure what I'll vote for on election day though...that's still up in the air.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Compton said:

This is extremely well written and explains how many people (myself included) feel. Don't vote liberal and your scolded/not with "our people". I'm an Asian immigrant with dark skin, yet I don't vote liberal. But if someone votes conservative and is a dark skin immigrant (African/Arab/Asian, etc.), should that be cringeworthy as someone noted earlier? I would hope not. But that type of rhetoric will just alienate people and push them towards an outsider to go against the status quo. The liberals don't have my vote, neither do the conservatives. But the conservatives are not full of white supremacists, racist individuals either. This stuff is the reason why people like Trump get elected. And quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Trump is elected in 2020 due to the constant Democratic policies and rhetoric against Trump that will shift the people in key states to vote red again, regardless of what Trump says or does. Anyways, I started this thread to get an idea as to what people thought about the upcoming election and policies important for them. My riding is in a key swing area but not sure what I'll vote for on election day though...that's still up in the air.

Absolutely. It would be silly to be as black and white as to suggest that even a majority of conservatives are racist. 

There are a variety of reasons a person may vote for any of the parties. Similarly, no one should be made to feel bad for being critical of their own party, agreeing with with another party says, or taking the time to dabble into or learn about other parties. This isn't war. 

 

Both parties have lead us into both good and bad times. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, YesIcan55 said:

Sure, the majority of conservatives are not racist. But the vast majority of racists are conservative. 

I don't disagree with you. But I do think in your head you've fallen prey to the stereotype of a 'conservative' as being A, B, C, X, Y, Z.

This is no different than someone assuming a 'liberal' is something they've been conditioned to believe they are, or are not.

It's pigeonholing secondary to labelling, and a prime example of the partisanship and polarity that exists these days as a result of people only entertaining discussion that furthers or supports their own views, falling prey to media that thrives on anger, fear, and animosity, and an inability to be radically open-minded and begin with the assumption of "I could afford to be more critical of myself and cautious with my beliefs."

I am not saying that you're wrong, but I am saying that the manner in which you're framing your opinion of others and the world as a whole is counter-productive. There is still room for agreeableness, even in the face of people or ideas that seem to go against your perspectives and ideology.

Also I'll argue that there are plenty of people who label themselves as progressive liberals who still harbour racist, sexist or possibly even supremacist views at times. I think a lot of this comes from people from minority groups who, you may argue partially justifiably, feel indignation at the way society is groomed by what is perceived as a white, male, authoritarian ideology. I don't think they're wrong to be upset, but I do think there are some folks who generalize their anger toward men in general, white people in general, people in authority in general, conservatism in general, sometimes to the point of outright hatred, bigotry and extreme narrow-mindedness, all things that we presumably set out to quash in the first place.

I'm a minority myself, and grew up in a small town in northern Ontario, and growing up I remember encountering bouts of prejudice, racism, even at a young age. Slurs, physical fights, and sometimes a general tension or unease that, admittedly, I probably would have noticed even more now as an adult than I did as a kid. That said, I don't let these experiences colour my entire perception; I know that people, as a whole, are victims of their upbringings, environments, friends & family. I don't inherently assume someone is a bad person simply because they said or did something I found reprehensible sometime. I myself have done reprehensible things I regret deeply, and hurt people in turn; I have to extend the same grace and room for growth to others as I do myself.

There are extremes on both ends. I think the real enemy here isn't necessarily one end of the spectrum or the other, but rather the tips of society; we all need to meet in the middle somewhere. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am an immigration lawyer with the federal government, and a person of colour whose family came to Canada as refugees. For anonymity reasons, I cannot say more about my workplace. Though, I will say that there is some incorrect information floating around this thread about how our immigration system works and the processing and admittance of refugees. Stick to what you know.

Immigrants crossing into our borders through illegal channels do not have the upper hand when going through the refugee system. Many of these people actually need this status more urgently than people still living in their countries, because when you are escaping persecution and hardship, you will do anything to get your family and yourself to a safer place. If this means obtaining fraudulent documents and risking life and limb to cross an international border, you do it. There are people who have done this to come to Canada that have lost their body parts in the process, and some who have even died (https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/dominican-man-dies-on-quebec-n-y-border-trying-to-reach-his-daughter). It is not an easy thing to risk everything and uproot you and your family from a place that you've always called home. It is an act of desperation and usually there is a good reason for it. Again, people who do not understand immigration law and policy, and whom do not work in this field, should not be spouting misinformation and stereotypes as fact. Many of the people working to accept refugees in Canada in the government hold Conservative views and are White (typically leaning on the older side as well). 

Immigration and Refugee Protection Act

Objectives — refugees

(2) The objectives of this Act with respect to refugees are

(e) to establish fair and efficient procedures that will maintain the integrity of the Canadian refugee protection system, while upholding Canada’s respect for the human rights and fundamental freedoms of all human beings;

The Canadian immigration system is not processing refugees by the manner in which they came to Canada, but rather engages a complex process that takes into account a wide range of factors that include the circumstances leading up to their arrival in Canada, and the hardship and persecution they would face if they were to return to their country of origin. 

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I have not decided on whom I will be voting for in the upcoming election, but I will not vote Liberal, this much I know. I am tired of the political correctness and aggressive attitudes surrounding liberal ideology today. Everything is on the extreme end with them. I used to be liberal before realizing that I am more of a centrist, and being liberal means something else entirely today. The Liberal party's entire platform is centered around how Conservatives are racist, evil, White people that want to only help their rich, White friends and nothing more. It is fearmongering and seeks to differentiate the White, male, conservative as being the Other, rather than seeking inclusion, unity, and acceptance. We are first and foremost CANADIANS in a proud land. I've met more accepting Conservatives with neutral beliefs and attitudes than I have Liberals. Many people are Conservative and vote Conservative simply for their economic policies and honestly, if hardworking people want to focus on themselves and their families, and not care too much about larger social and political concerns, they have the right to do so. We live in a democracy after all. We should not be directing people to feel or think one way or another. This is what the liberal ideology has come to. 

No, I am not a racist for not voting Liberal and it is laughable that this is being suggested by some people. A poster above has faced racial attitudes from White people and holds a deep resentment towards them. I have faced this as well. However, a lot of racists are visible minorities. You should hear what South Asians say about Blacks and Arab/Muslim people and vice-versa, what East Asians say about South Asians, what Blacks say about Whites, and so on. There are a lot of racial attitudes and stereotypes even among people leaning on the left, and among visible minorities. I have even been called out for having male privilege (in an incredibly aggressive manner) by left-leaning females who are White and had a more luxurious and easy upbringing than me. This is the kind of society we live in now, where we judge people by their political and religious beliefs, by their skin colour, race, and ethnicity, rather than by simply viewing people as people and their own person. I find myself agreeing more and more with Conservatives today who just want to live their own lives without being called racists. Look, there are people on the extreme end in every political spectrum. If you think most racists are Conservatives, then most visible minorities also hold racial attitudes and stereotypes (why do you think interracial marriages are so frowned upon?); the latter simply does a better job of hiding it when going outside their homes in a Western society. 

Why will I not be voting Liberal? Among a host of reasons that include scandals, lies, incompetence, and fearmongering, it is all this political correctness and aggressive direction they are try to steer normal, hardworking Canadian citizens into. The Liberal party is the new twitter handle for toxic social media rhetoric and extremism. I would rather vote NDP, Green, Conservative, or anyone else running solo than for that party with its current leader - who talks about working for the middle-class when in reality is just another rich, White male being a hypocrite and pretending to be something he is not. Peace. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, cleanup said:

 

There are extremes on both ends. I think the real enemy here isn't necessarily one end of the spectrum or the other, but rather the tips of society; we all need to meet in the middle somewhere. 

You're basically promoting dogmatic centrism. Realize this isn't a particularly new or insightful outlook, just ask Neville Chamberlain. The correct answer in political discourse isn't always to compromise or find the middle ground.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, ysera said:

You're basically promoting dogmatic centrism. Realize this isn't a particularly new or insightful outlook, just ask Neville Chamberlain. The correct answer in political discourse isn't always to compromise or find the middle ground.

I couldn't care less about being novel or insightful. Would you like to discuss this at an objective level or just apply labels to things and then tell me I'm wrong?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, anonymouspls said:

You're basically promoting dogmatic centrism. Realize this isn't a particularly new or insightful outlook, just ask Neville Chamberlain. The correct answer in political discourse isn't always to compromise or find the middle ground.

You're right. Lets just keep letting the discussion become more and more polarized until its just fascist ANTIFA members versus the neo-nazis. No compromise allowed!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ugggh, hate being right sometimes...

https://globalnews.ca/news/5922861/justin-trudeau-brownface-video/

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/politics/yearbook-photo-surfaces-of-trudeau-wearing-brownface-costume-in-2001/ar-AAHuYo5?li=AAggNb9&ocid=mailsignout

People's Party of Canada Leader Maxime Bernier described Trudeau on Twitter as a "master of identity politics" whose party has been accusing others of being "white supremacists." "He definitely is the biggest hypocrite in the country."  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...