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Compton

Federal Election 2019

Med0123

This discussion is getting heated.  We are all adults and I think this thread should be kept open, but I would ask everyone to take a step back, realize that this is a public forum and try to have a tempered and collegial discussion of the relevant healthcare topics associated with the federal elections. Thank you.

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cleanup

The OP (Compton) has requested that I close the thread as he believes it has derailed from its original intention. Have a good night everyone and fingers crossed people have come away from the posts with something new learned or realized. Cheers. 

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14 hours ago, Compton said:

Lets try to shift this discussion back to election issues:)

1. Do people feel that Canada needs a national pharmacare plan? If so, do you think we can afford to pay for it through higher taxes (even though we already pay a lot of taxes) or through other means? 

2. Liberals plan to run very high deficits for the next 4 years with no plan to balance the budget (apparently it balances itself?). The Conservatives plan to balance the budget in the next 5 years if elected (meaning high spending cuts). Is this an issue for you when you go to vote?

1. Doubt it will ever happen unless there is a NDP government (probably never going to happen either). We already pay so many taxes, I don't think the public will want to pay more. We've already seen the strong opposition to the carbon tax across Canada so adding a tax to pay for pharmacare may not go well. Although I do agree we need some sort of expanded pharmacare model, it won't happen anytime soon (and I'm against raising taxes for any purpose).

2. Big big issue. How do you pay for it? You can't just keep borrowing all the time. Eventually, a big tax hike will come and we'll all have to pay even more for things we don't support. At the end of the day, somebody needs to start cutting spending across the board and control revenue streams. The Conservatives will definitely cut services but in reality, they will also increase spending in other areas or give large tax breaks that won't address the debt. No political party has a concrete plan to pay down the deficit so honestly, it comes down to pro-business vs. increased cost of living to pay for others. As a physician, I'm for the tax break and pro-small business policies that the Conservatives have, as well as the Suspension of the Third Country Agreement to address the cost and impact on my community.

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1 hour ago, conbrio said:

1. 

Yep I do. Lots of people are on medication which racks up a significant bill throughout the year (not just for diseases too, how about birth control- that's not cheap and not having access to that would be way more expensive), and lots of people go without medication because they can't afford to (put food on table for families, rent, etc) and incur a worse progression of health outcomes (due to not following their prescribed medical treatment) which ends up costing the health care system more. People may end up paying more in taxes, but may overall end up paying less (due to coverage of their drugs, not having to miss work due to being sick). The next step that could come from this ideally would be to get rid of private insurers for medication coverage to improve the government's bargaining potential (only buyer -> more bargaining power) in establishing costs of medication with drug companies; cheaper drugs.

2.

No I don't. I'd rather effort and money is spent on progressive policies that are investments into a good future for us and our children. The recent childcare initiative, that lifted around 500,000 people out of poverty, is a good example. Let's face it. Climate change is going to overturn the table in terms of lasting impact, damage, and costs. No amount of budget balancing's going to help this. At least the liberals are making some effort to prepare for climate change, while the conservatives haven't made any good faith efforts and are heavily in bed with oil companies. What's the point of trying to balance the budget, when Conservatives don't even have a good track record of budget balancing, only cut budgets to needed social supports (look to recent cuts to teaching and education for one) that will only end up costing us in the long run, and will likely end up benefiting the large corporations and the uber wealthy at the cost of the people who need these social supports? This will only increase inequality and make Canadian society sicker. 

When it comes down to it, I am concerned about the future. Liberals are making a good faith attempt to prepare for the future. Conservatives are short-sighted and do not offer policies that will do this. That's how it goes.

Can we also just discuss policy here.. just seems like a lot of attacking each other and playing identity politics- we are all anonymous people on the internet.. there's no point.

Well its quite clear the liberal party is in bed with SNC-Lavalin and the uber wealthy. Does that not impact your perception of the liberal party? JT is one thing in public but another behind closed doors. He has butchered foreign relations and made more enemies over the past 4 years. Are you willing to look past that too?

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59 minutes ago, YesIcan55 said:

Thank you for expressing my exact thoughts very eloquently. It's a shame that conservatives couldn't give a crap about the vulnerable and disadvantaged in our society at the if it comes at the expense of tax breaks. Heck, many conservatives couldn't give a crap about the lives of the Muslims, LGBT and refugees even if it was free. As someone who has come from worse circumstances than most people, if I ever "make it" I won't forget my roots and try and advocate for things that will advantage me financially. It's extra sad on a forum of doctors/doctors-in-training/doctor hopefuls the amount of hostility that comes when people sense/fear any ways that their renumeration will decrease. Doctors aren't God-like beings that deserve these exorbitant incomes (yes, their income is exorbitant compared to 99% of the population and almost every other country in the world). Many other professionals train for years, and work very hard for a fraction of the income without the "prestige" and job security. I don't want to derail to a discussion of income, but this is what things seem to come down to...

It's always sad for you right? Sad this, sad that. Hopefully when you make it, you won't keep up this attitude to your colleagues and label them as racist for being conservatives or "extra-sad" for being upset about the government taking income away.

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4 minutes ago, Pepsi905 said:

Well its quite clear the liberal party is in bed with SNC-Lavalin and the uber wealthy. Does that not impact your perception of the liberal party? JT is one thing in public but another behind closed doors. He has butchered foreign relations and made more enemies over the past 4 years. Are you willing to look past that too?

Like I said, I am more concerned with what policies the next government is bringing to the table, that are forward thinking, take into account climate change and societal inequities, and are designed to help everyday people live their lives well and in good health. The Liberal government makes a good faith attempt at working towards this, and that is what I care about. If Conservatives are willing to do the same, I would be happy to consider voting for them. Unfortunately, they don't.

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If discussing environmentalism. It is hard to say that the liberal's are really that much better than conservatives on this front really. Lots of small band-aid solutions for sure. Vague goals like ban non-reusable plastics (whatever this means), plant 2 billion trees (ok cool doesn't really solve underlying issues), etc

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1 hour ago, MarsRover said:

If discussing environmentalism. It is hard to say that the liberal's are really that much better than conservatives on this front really. Lots of small band-aid solutions for sure. Vague goals like ban non-reusable plastics (whatever this means), plant 2 billion trees (ok cool doesn't really solve underlying issues), etc

doing anything is better than nothing...being the only leader not to attend the climate protests or even make any statements about what the party will do for the environment, etc...

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18 hours ago, YesIcan55 said:

doing anything is better than nothing...being the only leader not to attend the climate protests or even make any statements about what the party will do for the environment, etc...

Fair but a small surface level effort is also unlikely to change anything meaningful. One could also argue while Trudeau attending a protest during his majority government term in office he didn't try to change much and literally had the power to. 

I don't think a great reason to vote liberal is that while not great they are better than conservative. what about the other parties? 

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Did the CBC vote compass last night. I ended up tied between the Liberals and the Conservatives. 

/pain of being socially liberal and financially conservative.....

//Trump impeachment keeps distracting me from the Canadian election. 

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2 hours ago, NLengr said:

Did the CBC vote compass last night. I ended up tied between the Liberals and the Conservatives. 

/pain of being socially liberal and financially conservative.....

//Trump impeachment keeps distracting me from the Canadian election. 

I identify as socially liberal and financially conservative as well, and on the compass I was literally right in the centre. The tiniest bit left leaning. I am absolutely a centrist, but that also means that no party really speaks to me greatly.

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44 minutes ago, cleanup said:

I identify as socially liberal and financially conservative as well, and on the compass I was literally right in the centre. The tiniest bit left leaning. I am absolutely a centrist, but that also means that no party really speaks to me greatly.

Ah yes, the classic: "I support civil rights and peoples' well-being, but I'm not inclined to put money where my mouth is to try and fix the current socioeconomic, environmental, or legal systems that may be disproportionately neglecting some people." 

Have you read the recent article that poverty costs Ontario $33 billion a year alone (https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2019/10/01/poverty-costs-ontario-33-billion-a-year-food-banks-say.html)? Investing money into infrastructure and support systems, such as through the Liberal child benefit program (which lifted hundreds of thousands of families and children out of poverty), will end up saving you money in the long-run by making others healthier and more well-off. How are these paid for? Through deficits. Because they're investments looking ahead to the future.

Seriously, give the election platforms a careful read for their policies, think about how these policies will impact Canadians, and try to examine previous governments' records and their effects, before you actually vote.

And Liberals are not even my preferred party..

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2 hours ago, conbrio said:

Ah yes, the classic: "I support civil rights and peoples' well-being, but I'm not inclined to put money where my mouth is to try and fix the current socioeconomic, environmental, or legal systems that may be disproportionately neglecting some people." 

Considering the massive tax bill I now pay every year, I am putting lots of money where my mouth is. 

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3 hours ago, conbrio said:

Ah yes, the classic: "I support civil rights and peoples' well-being, but I'm not inclined to put money where my mouth is to try and fix the current socioeconomic, environmental, or legal systems that may be disproportionately neglecting some people." 

Have you read the recent article that poverty costs Ontario $33 billion a year alone (https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2019/10/01/poverty-costs-ontario-33-billion-a-year-food-banks-say.html)? Investing money into infrastructure and support systems, such as through the Liberal child benefit program (which lifted hundreds of thousands of families and children out of poverty), will end up saving you money in the long-run by making others healthier and more well-off. How are these paid for? Through deficits. Because they're investments looking ahead to the future.

Seriously, give the election platforms a careful read for their policies, think about how these policies will impact Canadians, and try to examine previous governments' records and their effects, before you actually vote.

And Liberals are not even my preferred party..

I think you’ve presumed incorrectly about me. I vote liberal, but like you I have some reservations about it. Don’t mistake my attempt to be critical of everyone or my lack of expressing a strong stance in this topic as an opportunity to sell me on sarcastic doctrine. There’s no need to put words in anyone’s mouth or to make assumptions. That is precisely the type of attitude that has gotten people riled up in this thread so far.

i have been very close to closing this thread a few times as a result of those types of missteps. 

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30 minutes ago, cleanup said:

I think you’ve presumed incorrectly about me. I vote liberal, but like you I have some reservations about it. Don’t mistake my attempt to be critical of everyone or my lack of expressing a strong stance in this topic as an opportunity to sell me on sarcastic doctrine. There’s no need to put words in anyone’s mouth or to make assumptions. That is precisely the type of attitude that has gotten people riled up in this thread so far.

i have been very close to closing this thread a few times as a result of those types of missteps. 

I've also never voted conservative in my life. Only voted Liberal or NDP. But spending 2016-2017 with the liberals calling me a tax cheat over and over has soured me on the Trudeau liberals. 

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The OP (Compton) has requested that I close the thread as he believes it has derailed from its original intention. Have a good night everyone and fingers crossed people have come away from the posts with something new learned or realized. Cheers. 

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