Whats wrong with Australia?

[imgee]

Okay I don't know if I am just super ignorant but is there a particular reason why people who ask about going to Australia wonder about how hard it is to come back. Isn't Australia basically the warm version of Canada; if I were to choose between living in Canada, the US or Australia I would put it as Australia  > Canada > US. Is it just because people want to be close to family? I am interested in Australia but my fear is not getting citizenship + financing as an international.

[BernieMac]

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[imgee]

2 hours ago, YesIcan55 said:

Going to Australia means you would be an international medical graduate and would be in competition with thousands of other foreign trained graduates from every country in the world for a very limited number of residency spots in non- competitive fields like FM. To even be be apply to apply to residency in Canada you need to get a top percentile on standardized tests. This is all on top of paying upwards of 3 times as much money to finance your medical degree as Canadian students, being away from family/friends, facing major IMG stigma, and living with the very real possibility that your MD will be useless if you fail to match and secure a residency spot. To make matters worse, getting a residency spot in Australia itself is also difficult as a Canadian. tl;dr don't do it. 

So it's hard to find a job in Australia itself? or like is this general to going back to Canada; because my interest is to actually live in australia; I could not be understanding properly sorry! 

[bearded frog]

It's hard to find a residency spot in Australia as a foreign medical student without Australian citizenship. There are pathways, but are competitive and not guaranteed, and means more time in Australia if your goal is to come back to Canada.

If you are a citizen then it would be different. I don't know the logistics of becoming a citizen while on a school visa, or how realistic that is.

[guy30]

The majority of Canadians who study in Australia actually don't come back because they end up liking it there, get in to the training system, and end up staying there either long term or finishing up their postgrad training and moving back to Canada on reciprocity agreements between the two countries eventually.

 

Australian grads that do apply to the USA or Canada for residency generally have fairly good match rates.

Aus grads generally do quite well in the Canadian postgrad training system and the Australian healthcare system is significantly more similar to the Canadian health care system than the US health system is to the Canadian health system so the transition is actually smoother for an Aus grad from what I've seen compared to American grads.

 

A lot of misperceptions about obtaining postgraduate training for Aus grads but for an international student who is an Australian medical school graduate, the match rate for an internship is roughly similar to the match rate for CMG's in CaRMS over the last several years (as noted, there may be different pathways that need to be undertaken if not successful in the initial round of job applications, similar to going through the 2nd iteration in CaRMS, but pretty much almost everyone that wants a job is able to eventually get one somewhere).  The match rate for Australian domestic students is basically 100% unless there are some major red flags.  They call it such an 'internship crisis' in Aus because the Australian Medical Students' Association advocates for all Australian graduates, whether domestic or international students, and have been successful in the 'internship crisis' campaign over the last decade in getting the Aus government to further expand internship training positions so that as close to all Aus grads have an internship after medical school.

 

For post-graduate training in Aus, once you do your internship, you're basically on the same footing as any Australian student in apply for post-graduate training positions.  Everyone is essentially treated the same based on merit for post-graduate training.  Whether you were an international student or domestic student in medical school essentially doesn't matter anymore.  In the Aus system, most people work as a Resident Medical Officer/House Officer (think kind of similar to an extender or an off-service resident) for different services to gain more experience and beef up their applications or figure out what they want to do in life before applying to post-grad programs but there are some programs where people can apply to right after internship (the most obvious being GP/Family Medicine training).

 

Hope that helps!

[guy30]

9 hours ago, imgee said:

Okay I don't know if I am just super ignorant but is there a particular reason why people who ask about going to Australia wonder about how hard it is to come back. Isn't Australia basically the warm version of Canada; if I were to choose between living in Canada, the US or Australia I would put it as Australia  > Canada > US. Is it just because people want to be close to family? I am interested in Australia but my fear is not getting citizenship + financing as an international.

Australia in general is a great place to work if you're interested!  Similar to Canada but different in some quirks, and also warmer haha.

 

Getting PR and eventually citizenship is generally not an issue once you start working as a doctor after medical school.

 

There's usually ways around financing including personal savings, government student loans, and bank line of credits that get most people through.  It certainly isn't cheap for international students but probably similar in tuition to what American medical schools charge.

[bearded frog]

On 9/21/2019 at 10:12 PM, guy30 said:

The majority of Canadians who study in Australia actually don't come back because they end up liking it there, get in to the training system, and end up staying there either long term or finishing up their postgrad training and moving back to Canada on reciprocity agreements between the two countries eventually.

 

Australian grads that do apply to the USA or Canada for residency generally have fairly good match rates.

Gonna need to see some sort of data or evidence to support this. Just under half of IMG applicants from Australia match every year, which seems low if everyone likes it so much and doesn't want to come back.

[guy30]

20 minutes ago, bearded frog said:

Gonna need to see some sort of data or evidence to support this. Just under half of IMG applicants from Australia match every year, which seems low if everyone likes it so much and doesn't want to come back.

Unfortunately I don't think the rates of Canadian students who are Australian Medical School grads staying in Aus is really tracked publicly but the community of international students isn't huge so who is staying in Aus and who is applying to the USA or Canada for residency is generally known within the community, at least definitely within each medical school especially since people need to prep for the LMCC exams or USMLE exams ahead of time.

 

The CaRMS data for just under half of Aus grads matching to a Canadian residency each year is just based on those who actually apply back to Canada obviously and not those who stay with no intention of applying to CaRMS. 

I would say at my school roughly 80% of the Canadian students stayed in Aus and just continued on with their internship and postgraduate training without applying to CaRMS.

Of the remaining people who did apply to CaRMS, in my year everyone who applied matched in the first iteration but on average for other years, I would say roughly 50-75% matched in their first application and the other 25-50% just continued working in Aus and the re-applied in a subsequent year and matched.  I think that would be consistent with the CaRMS stats in general.  I would also say that all of the people I know who applied to the USA matched in their first application.  I think that those are pretty decent match rates for IMG's though anecdotal in the end.

The other thing with Aus applicants is that they generally have the option to just continue working in Aus so they may be more selective with which programs they apply to since the training opportunities may end up being better in Aus if there are quite limited residency positions in Canada for a particular field of medicine.  Also the risk of not matching to Canada is not as high since there's usually a job that they can continue with in Aus.

[JohnGrisham]

22 minutes ago, guy30 said:

Unfortunately I don't think the rates of Canadian students who are Australian Medical School grads staying in Aus is really tracked publicly but the community of international students isn't huge so who is staying in Aus and who is applying to the USA or Canada for residency is generally known within the community, at least definitely within each medical school especially since people need to prep for the LMCC exams or USMLE exams ahead of time.

 

The CaRMS data for just under half of Aus grads matching to a Canadian residency each year is just based on those who actually apply back to Canada obviously and not those who stay with no intention of applying to CaRMS. 

I would say at my school roughly 80% of the Canadian students stayed in Aus and just continued on with their internship and postgraduate training without applying to CaRMS.

Of the remaining people who did apply to CaRMS, in my year everyone who applied matched in the first iteration but on average for other years, I would say roughly 50-75% matched in their first application and the other 25-50% just continued working in Aus and the re-applied in a subsequent year and matched.  I think that would be consistent with the CaRMS stats in general.  I would also say that all of the people I know who applied to the USA matched in their first application.  I think that those are pretty decent match rates for IMG's though anecdotal in the end.

The other thing with Aus applicants is that they generally have the option to just continue working in Aus so they may be more selective with which programs they apply to since the training opportunities may end up being better in Aus if there are quite limited residency positions in Canada for a particular field of medicine.  Also the risk of not matching to Canada is not as high since there's usually a job that they can continue with in Aus.

Which school did you attend? 

I know that its very regional based for internships for internationals, as 3 close colleagues have gone through the process in the last few years. Some areas have it a bit easier to get an internship, though you have to go fairly rural. Other areas, even if you're willing to go rural its super tight. 

[imgee]

21 hours ago, bearded frog said:

Gonna need to see some sort of data or evidence to support this. Just under half of IMG applicants from Australia match every year, which seems low if everyone likes it so much and doesn't want to come back.

Australia seems like a pretty decent place to live haha- I just would prefer the warm weather to be honest! I hate the cold - so I was thinking like florida/ california and australia but for some reason USMD is said to be better than going to Australia when the prices look the same; so I inferred that this was general to wanting to come back to canada, which is actually what isn't on my mind unless Australia is secretly a bad place to live 

[imgee]

On 9/22/2019 at 12:12 AM, guy30 said:

The majority of Canadians who study in Australia actually don't come back because they end up liking it there, get in to the training system, and end up staying there either long term or finishing up their postgrad training and moving back to Canada on reciprocity agreements between the two countries eventually.

 

Australian grads that do apply to the USA or Canada for residency generally have fairly good match rates.

Aus grads generally do quite well in the Canadian postgrad training system and the Australian healthcare system is significantly more similar to the Canadian health care system than the US health system is to the Canadian health system so the transition is actually smoother for an Aus grad from what I've seen compared to American grads.

 

A lot of misperceptions about obtaining postgraduate training for Aus grads but for an international student who is an Australian medical school graduate, the match rate for an internship is roughly similar to the match rate for CMG's in CaRMS over the last several years (as noted, there may be different pathways that need to be undertaken if not successful in the initial round of job applications, similar to going through the 2nd iteration in CaRMS, but pretty much almost everyone that wants a job is able to eventually get one somewhere).  The match rate for Australian domestic students is basically 100% unless there are some major red flags.  They call it such an 'internship crisis' in Aus because the Australian Medical Students' Association advocates for all Australian graduates, whether domestic or international students, and have been successful in the 'internship crisis' campaign over the last decade in getting the Aus government to further expand internship training positions so that as close to all Aus grads have an internship after medical school.

 

For post-graduate training in Aus, once you do your internship, you're basically on the same footing as any Australian student in apply for post-graduate training positions.  Everyone is essentially treated the same based on merit for post-graduate training.  Whether you were an international student or domestic student in medical school essentially doesn't matter anymore.  In the Aus system, most people work as a Resident Medical Officer/House Officer (think kind of similar to an extender or an off-service resident) for different services to gain more experience and beef up their applications or figure out what they want to do in life before applying to post-grad programs but there are some programs where people can apply to right after internship (the most obvious being GP/Family Medicine training).

 

Hope that helps!

This was super helpful honestly I really appreciate it; mind if I PM you? 

[guy30]

20 hours ago, JohnGrisham said:

Which school did you attend? 

I know that its very regional based for internships for internationals, as 3 close colleagues have gone through the process in the last few years. Some areas have it a bit easier to get an internship, though you have to go fairly rural. Other areas, even if you're willing to go rural its super tight. 

There are certainly regional differences in terms of how easily and how much of an urban academic teaching hospital you are likely to get for internship.  As you probably know, some states will even prioritize their own Aus graduates who are international students over inter-state domestic students.

However, for the vast majority of Australian medical graduates that want an internship, those that want one will get an offer somewhere, even if it's a super rural area or with some of the newer private hospital internships attached to a one year return of service contract offered now as part of the Aus governments expansion in internship positions.  The internship stats show it (you might need to google it or obtain it through the Australian Medical Students Association).  Main caveat being major red flags in their application and an individual's willingness to go anywhere and actually commit to the training for their contract period.  If it gets to the point where they're super desperate even after applying to hospitals across the country, job positions do even pop up in the middle of the year as people go on leave etc.  They treat the process much more as a job in the application process than how things are done with CaRMS.  You can even get paid overtime at work!

The nice thing about doing internship in a super rural area is that it is often an interesting and challenging learning experience, and after one year you have the ability to apply back into more urban areas just like everyone else since you'll have your general registration (essentially kind of like your LMCC but it allows you to work across the country).

 

I'm certainly happy to chat with some of your colleagues if they're having issues?  Did they all get internships in the end? Still looking to apply to Canada?  Feel free to PM me if they need advice.

[guy30]

1 hour ago, imgee said:

Australia seems like a pretty decent place to live haha- I just would prefer the warm weather to be honest! I hate the cold - so I was thinking like florida/ california and australia but for some reason USMD is said to be better than going to Australia when the prices look the same; so I inferred that this was general to wanting to come back to canada, which is actually what isn't on my mind unless Australia is secretly a bad place to live 

I would honestly say that Australia is an amazing place to live if you're comparing it to the USA... especially nowadays with their mass shooting epidemic.  But both countries and Canada obviously have their pro's and cons though Canada and Aus are fairly similar as I mentioned before, kind of like cousins in different hemispheres.

In terms of medical training, I think the average standard in Aus is going to be higher than in the USA as there is a lot of variability in the quality of residency programs.  There are obviously going to be some really top notch training programs in the USA at your high end Ivy league schools but also some terrible programs at private hospitals not affiliated with major universities or teaching centers.

Healthcare system as a whole is definitely going to be better in Aus compared to the USA from an access point of view and just in general with how the system is run.  The USA doesn't really have a system per se but more like a ton of hospitals run as corporations doing their own thing.  The Aus health system is also much more similar to the Canadian health system than the American health system as I mentioned before.

 

1 hour ago, imgee said:

This was super helpful honestly I really appreciate it; mind if I PM you? 

Yup feel free to PM me, can't promise super prompt responses but I can try! haha

[McMarauder]

17 hours ago, imgee said:

Australia seems like a pretty decent place to live haha- I just would prefer the warm weather to be honest! I hate the cold - so I was thinking like florida/ california and australia but for some reason USMD is said to be better than going to Australia when the prices look the same; so I inferred that this was general to wanting to come back to canada, which is actually what isn't on my mind unless Australia is secretly a bad place to live 

Your opinion of Australia may change once you live there.  I lived in Australia for 6 years  (4 years for dental school, 2 years working as a dentist) and at first I thought I'd stay.  I landed in Melbourne in January 2012,  escaping a brutal Toronto winter.  Met my now wife and made lots of good friends, many of whom I consider to be my closest friends. I ultimately decided to come back to Canada (Saskatchewan of all places) for several reasons.  Lots can change in a few years.

[Edict]

I think Australia is not a bad place to go, if you want to immigrate there its not bad. I know one person who is there and hasn't come back. We get Aussie fellows who are australian by birth and from speaking to them their system is pretty decent actually. Training is longer there, but it is also more chill, it definitely seems more like moving up the ladder there whereas here idk why but our residency system in NA is concentrated pain followed by reward. 

[bzora]

My two cents...

I am a Canadian, (from Edmonton,) and completed my medical degree in Australia, graduating in 2013, and now hold dual licensure (Family Medicine) in Australia and Canada. I work at the University of Tasmania School of Medicine. The process of holding dual licensure was difficult for me, only because I didn't have a guide in how to do it. It really doesn't have to be that challenging, and the aim of our program is to streamline the process of medical education for Canadians who want to keep their options open.  

In my role at UTas, I supervise the Canadian Pathway - a program designed for Canadians who wish to study medicine in Australia, while completing all of the necessary requirements for internship in Australia, as well as application to Canadian residencies through CARMS. 
I can confirm that 100% of our UTas medical graduates - including all international graduates in the last 65 years - have secured either an Australian internship upon graduation, or placed into a residency in their home country, including Canada. We are the only medical school in Australia that has that record, but the odds are still very favourable at other Australian medical schools. 

One of the contributors above mentioned that a significant number of Canadians actually choose to stay in Australia following graduation, and this is definitely true - there are so many Canadian doctors in Tasmania! I suspect it has something to do with the climate and great work/life balance (even within training programs.) 

Hope this information helps. 

 

 

[melodiousjatt]

On 9/23/2019 at 1:51 AM, guy30 said:

 

 

On 9/23/2019 at 11:21 PM, guy30 said:

There are certainly regional differences in terms of how easily and how much of an urban academic teaching hospital you are likely to get for internship.  As you probably know, some states will even prioritize their own Aus graduates who are international students over inter-state domestic students.

However, for the vast majority of Australian medical graduates that want an internship, those that want one will get an offer somewhere, even if it's a super rural area or with some of the newer private hospital internships attached to a one year return of service contract offered now as part of the Aus governments expansion in internship positions.  The internship stats show it (you might need to google it or obtain it through the Australian Medical Students Association).  Main caveat being major red flags in their application and an individual's willingness to go anywhere and actually commit to the training for their contract period.  If it gets to the point where they're super desperate even after applying to hospitals across the country, job positions do even pop up in the middle of the year as people go on leave etc.  They treat the process much more as a job in the application process than how things are done with CaRMS.  You can even get paid overtime at work!

The nice thing about doing internship in a super rural area is that it is often an interesting and challenging learning experience, and after one year you have the ability to apply back into more urban areas just like everyone else since you'll have your general registration (essentially kind of like your LMCC but it allows you to work across the country).

 

I'm certainly happy to chat with some of your colleagues if they're having issues?  Did they all get internships in the end? Still looking to apply to Canada?  Feel free to PM me if they need advice.

Thanks a lot brother for sharing your valuable input on this matter. I just wanted to know which university you studied from and which one you would recommend for the best residency matching.

Once again, I really appreciate you helping everyone out.