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happychapter

Is it harder to specialize as an Australian grad?

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Hello all, I'm thinking about doing a dental degree in Australia and if I come back to Canada and choose to specialize, will they care about the fact that my dental degree is from abroad? I understand that it's possible to specialize, but I want to know from anyone who might know whether or not it will just be harder.

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Yes, it seems like some programs prefer north american grads (i.e. canada or the US)

E.g. Uwo OMFS says a prerequisite is

 

Didn't take the time to look at other schools/programs but you should probably look into it before you commit to australia

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Dental school is a business. The barrier to getting into cheaper dental schools is being a better applicant. How are you a better applicant to a dental school (for dds or special) if you had to buy your degree? Just look at the money trail and it all makes sense.

If you want to specialize then work a little harder, spend more time in UG, and get into a Canadian dental school. Then if you want to specialize just outcompete everyone else for the seat naturally.

If you don't want to specialize and have money, just go to Australia, more money but save time. Plus you just gotta skate by if you're doing an UG.

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18 hours ago, maritimefarm said:

Yes, it seems like some programs prefer north american grads (i.e. canada or the US)

E.g. Uwo OMFS says a prerequisite is

 

Didn't take the time to look at other schools/programs but you should probably look into it before you commit to australia

https://www.cda-adc.ca/cdacweb/en/international_professionals/

 

In addition, the following general dentistry programs are also considered accredited:

Effective March 30, 2010, general dentistry programs accredited by CDAC or the Australian Dental Council (ADC).

Effective December 15, 2011, general dentistry programs accredited by CDAC or the Dental Council of New Zealand (DCNZ).

Effective December 5, 2012, general dentistry programs accredited by CDAC or the Irish Dental Council.

The whole point of the reciprocal agreement is so that the CDAC will recognize  AU, NZ and IR general dental programs as accredited.  it's not limited to Canada+US.

 

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2 minutes ago, McMarauder said:

https://www.cda-adc.ca/cdacweb/en/international_professionals/

 

In addition, the following general dentistry programs are also considered accredited:

Effective March 30, 2010, general dentistry programs accredited by CDAC or the Australian Dental Council (ADC).

Effective December 15, 2011, general dentistry programs accredited by CDAC or the Dental Council of New Zealand (DCNZ).

Effective December 5, 2012, general dentistry programs accredited by CDAC or the Irish Dental Council.

The whole point of the reciprocal agreement is so that the CDAC will recognize  AU, NZ and IR general dental programs as accredited.  it's not limited to Canada+US.

 

when they're going through applicants, do they care at all about what and where I get my degree? Say I apply to the same specialization program as someone who has a DDS from canada, do you know if they will prefer the one from canada? 

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3 hours ago, Chaxon said:

Dental school is a business. The barrier to getting into cheaper dental schools is being a better applicant. How are you a better applicant to a dental school (for dds or special) if you had to buy your degree? Just look at the money trail and it all makes sense.

If you want to specialize then work a little harder, spend more time in UG, and get into a Canadian dental school. Then if you want to specialize just outcompete everyone else for the seat naturally.

If you don't want to specialize and have money, just go to Australia, more money but save time. Plus you just gotta skate by if you're doing an UG.

just wondering, what are ways I can outcompete someone for the seat? Better reference letters and resume?

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1 minute ago, happychapter said:

when they're going through applicants, do they care at all about what and where I get my degree? Say I apply to the same specialization program as someone who has a DDS from canada, do you know if they will prefer the one from canada? 

that I would have no clue.  However, I have met a few Aussie dentists who specialized in the states.. don't know any that specialized in Canada.  One of my instructors (Periodontist) was telling me how he had interviewed at UofT for ortho.  He's an Irish trained dentist (many years prior to the reciprocal agreement).  I had 2 other instructors that specialized in the states with their Melbourne general degrees.  One was a prosthodontist who trained in Kentucky, and the other was a periodontist who trained at NYU.  

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7 hours ago, happychapter said:

just wondering, what are ways I can outcompete someone for the seat? Better reference letters and resume?

Honestly, I wouldn't even consider specialization until I went to dental school and decided. I'm guessing a combo between gpa, references, stellar soft skills and work ethic that faculty recognizes. But I'm sure there's some political aspect too lmao

Might as well apply and just see what happens. Maybe youll get the seat.

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On 9/23/2019 at 10:06 PM, maritimefarm said:

Yes, it seems like some programs prefer north american grads (i.e. canada or the US)

E.g. Uwo OMFS says a prerequisite is

 

Didn't take the time to look at other schools/programs but you should probably look into it before you commit to australia

you should probably look into it before you comment. Australian schools are accredited.

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On 9/24/2019 at 12:49 PM, Chaxon said:

Dental school is a business. The barrier to getting into cheaper dental schools is being a better applicant. How are you a better applicant to a dental school (for dds or special) if you had to buy your degree? Just look at the money trail and it all makes sense.

If you want to specialize then work a little harder, spend more time in UG, and get into a Canadian dental school. Then if you want to specialize just outcompete everyone else for the seat naturally.

If you don't want to specialize and have money, just go to Australia, more money but save time. Plus you just gotta skate by if you're doing an UG.

Hey man theres nothing wrong with going to Australia. He can always come back to Canada/the States in his 2nd year if he works hard. Ay Panini don't you be a meanie

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6 hours ago, Lario and Muigi said:

you should probably look into it before you comment. Australian schools are accredited.

1. @maritimefarm is not wrong according to Western's website. OMFS's page says Canada or the US as they indicated. Their GPR says accredited North American schools. And their Ortho says Canada, US, Australia or Ireland. So clearly it is a program by program basis. Just because it is accredited does not mean the program will consider them for specialization. Details matter.

2. @Chaxon Going to the cheapest dental school for DDS/DMD does not mean you'll be the best applicant for specialization by any means. Everything before dental school that made you a good candidate for DDS/DMD means very little now. It is about how you succeeded and learned throughout dental school as well as the quality of education you had while at dental school. And let's just say cheap doesn't usually lead to quality education. 

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Still it's better to give a business perspective since the overall value of the degree is decreasing and therefore the salary will too. 

The proportion of new Canadian dentists that are foreign trained will soon be higher than domestic trained. I believe dentistry is just an oversaturated business and alot of people don't care for the dentist anyways. The CDA/government hasn't invested much on med school or dental school seats and now we can just have immigrants and foreign trained Canadians fill those postions. 

Obviously more supply but is the demand for dentists increasing? I'd argue, dentists putting signs of "accepting new patients" just means "needing more work".

But hey, if you got money might as well go to Aussie. If you got drive, get into Canada, and prove to yourself you actually have work ethic lol.

 

 

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On 9/24/2019 at 4:33 PM, McMarauder said:

https://www.cda-adc.ca/cdacweb/en/international_professionals/

 

In addition, the following general dentistry programs are also considered accredited:

Effective March 30, 2010, general dentistry programs accredited by CDAC or the Australian Dental Council (ADC).

Effective December 15, 2011, general dentistry programs accredited by CDAC or the Dental Council of New Zealand (DCNZ).

Effective December 5, 2012, general dentistry programs accredited by CDAC or the Irish Dental Council.

The whole point of the reciprocal agreement is so that the CDAC will recognize  AU, NZ and IR general dental programs as accredited.  it's not limited to Canada+US.

 

 

19 hours ago, Lario and Muigi said:

you should probably look into it before you comment. Australian schools are accredited.

I apologize for any misunderstandings. I am aware that AU, NZ, and IR schools are accredited, but the parentheses were not my own. I simply quoted Western's website that lists a requirement of being a "Graduate of a CDAC Accredited Dental School (in Canada or the U.S.)." As @HopefulDDS mentioned, Westerns GPR requirements also state: "All applicants must be graduates from an accredited dental school in North America."

Here is another example. McGill OMFS states: Candidates must possess a D.D.S. or D.M.D. degree from an accredited North American Dental school." but their orthodontics program does not specify this same requirement.

It is worth contacting the individual programs for further clarification, but it appears that some of them exclusively accept applications from North American graduates.

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I'm wondering if anyone knows whether or not a specialized degree from Australia is recognized in Canada? For example the DClinDent offered from the University of Sydney for either Oral Surgery, Orthodontics, Periodontics...etc?

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15 hours ago, maritimefarm said:

 

I apologize for any misunderstandings. I am aware that AU, NZ, and IR schools are accredited, but the parentheses were not my own. I simply quoted Western's website that lists a requirement of being a "Graduate of a CDAC Accredited Dental School (in Canada or the U.S.)." As @HopefulDDS mentioned, Westerns GPR requirements also state: "All applicants must be graduates from an accredited dental school in North America."

Here is another example. McGill OMFS states: Candidates must possess a D.D.S. or D.M.D. degree from an accredited North American Dental school." but their orthodontics program does not specify this same requirement.

It is worth contacting the individual programs for further clarification, but it appears that some of them exclusively accept applications from North American graduates.

 

Is it only OMFS programs that accept purely north american dental schools? Or is western and mcgill the only OMFS programs that have this requirement, or is there a website/resource I can look at to see all the specialties offered at each university in canada/ontario? 

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19 hours ago, Chaxon said:

Still it's better to give a business perspective since the overall value of the degree is decreasing and therefore the salary will too. 

The proportion of new Canadian dentists that are foreign trained will soon be higher than domestic trained. I believe dentistry is just an oversaturated business and alot of people don't care for the dentist anyways. The CDA/government hasn't invested much on med school or dental school seats and now we can just have immigrants and foreign trained Canadians fill those postions. 

Obviously more supply but is the demand for dentists increasing? I'd argue, dentists putting signs of "accepting new patients" just means "needing more work".

But hey, if you got money might as well go to Aussie. If you got drive, get into Canada, and prove to yourself you actually have work ethic lol.

 

 

Just getting into Canada doesn't prove you have work ethic lol. You really gotta stop speaking out of your ass

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1 hour ago, happychapter said:

 

Is it only OMFS programs that accept purely north american dental schools? Or is western and mcgill the only OMFS programs that have this requirement, or is there a website/resource I can look at to see all the specialties offered at each university in canada/ontario? 

I don't think there's a website that compiles all this info. If you're interested in specializing, it might be worth spending some time looking through the program requirements across Canada.

It doesn't seem to be limited to OMFS programs. As mentioned, Western's General Practice Residency also mentions a requirement of being a graduate of a North American school.

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@longteethgriffy most kids that go to Australia went there cuz they have low marks or just because their parents got money. Welcome to Western entitlement bud. 

If you can't get into a Canadian dental school you aren't meant to be a dentist imo. Unless you were severely impaired during undergrad, then I understand of course. 

 

Dentists I've spoken with believe people are being sold on a dream that may not be a reality in 10-20 years. People just want an easy way to a high paying job imo.

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@Chaxon Your opinion that Canadian dental schools are the end all be all must rest on one or both of two conditions. The first, Canadians have the only applicants worthy of practicing dentistry at the highest standards. The second being Canadian dental schools have superior education. Without these your opinion is baseless.

The standard of practicing in Canada is laid out clearly as graduating from an accredited dental school along with passing the national board exams and obtaining licensure to practice in Canada. These examinations are in place to ensure that students have been prepared to the standard of all Canadian dentists before the entering the profession in Canada. Every practicing Canadian dentist I have spoken to has agreed any dentist who has graduated from an accredited school is technically qualified. They hire their associates primarily on their demeanour for doctor patient interactions. There is no concern for their technical skills because the system has ensured they will not be able to practice in Canada without first obtaining the knowledge and skill to practice. If foreignly graduated students were not qualified they would not proceed beyond the examination and licensure process just the same as Canadian graduates. 

Now if we're talking about the caliber of that education, Canadian schools truly do not have much to hang their hat on. There is no indication that Canadian dental schools offer better education than the US, Ireland, Australia or New Zealand. No ranking available supports this. If anything, it is the opposite. (I definitely acknowledge rankings are somewhat flawed, but it is the only comparison tool available being anecdotal evidence). From my own anecdotal research, Canadian schools are struggling. If it is not enough funding for proper resources, it is lack of patients which leads to decreased clinical experience before graduation. If it is not their patient pool it is the dated curriculum design. The only thing special about Canadian schools is name recognition. Rejecting newly accredited schools because you haven't taken the time to learn about their programs is not a knock on them, but on you.

I really see no basis in the claim that Canadian dental graduates should be the only dentists practicing in Canada because their merit warrants it. There is no basis because there is nothing extraordinary about the dentists they produce.

 

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6 hours ago, Chaxon said:

@longteethgriffy most kids that go to Australia went there cuz they have low marks or just because their parents got money. Welcome to Western entitlement bud. 

If you can't get into a Canadian dental school you aren't meant to be a dentist imo. Unless you were severely impaired during undergrad, then I understand of course. 

 

Dentists I've spoken with believe people are being sold on a dream that may not be a reality in 10-20 years. People just want an easy way to a high paying job imo.

Yeah i'll tell you right now from first hand experience Canadian dental schools are not as bright and shiny as you think they are. Wouldn't say the quality of education I'm getting is at all impressive enough to shit talk other people. But it's difficult to have a discussion about this with someone who only goes by "I've talked to a lot of dentists and they've said this and that." People only tell half truths a lot of the time and you shouldn't take their word for it.

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Hey guys whatever makes you sleep at night I guess. We'll just agree to disagree.

And addressing the actual question, I believe it should be harder for any internationally trained dentist to specialize in Canada. Just since Canadian specialization seats should be resevered for Canadian educated dentists. Simply to maintain the integrity of the system.

Canadian educated dentists are usually higher caliber students from the first day in undergrad relative to people who had to go to Australia. It only makes sense for our country to invest in our best and brightest. They earned it. 

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10 hours ago, Chaxon said:

Hey guys whatever makes you sleep at night I guess. We'll just agree to disagree.

And addressing the actual question, I believe it should be harder for any internationally trained dentist to specialize in Canada. Just since Canadian specialization seats should be resevered for Canadian educated dentists. Simply to maintain the integrity of the system.

Canadian educated dentists are usually higher caliber students from the first day in undergrad relative to people who had to go to Australia. It only makes sense for our country to invest in our best and brightest. They earned it. 

By the end of the 4 years of Dental School, most Canadian trained dentists are far behind clinically and theoretically compared to their Australian and American counterparts. Experience and education are almost exclusively what makes one a good practioner. So if the Canada does indeed want to invest in their best, brightest and highest caliber, then by your logic, they should exclude Canadian trained dentists from that list.

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On 9/29/2019 at 8:01 AM, Chaxon said:

@longteethgriffy most kids that go to Australia went there cuz they have low marks or just because their parents got money. Welcome to Western entitlement bud. 

If you can't get into a Canadian dental school you aren't meant to be a dentist imo. Unless you were severely impaired during undergrad, then I understand of course. 

 

Dentists I've spoken with believe people are being sold on a dream that may not be a reality in 10-20 years. People just want an easy way to a high paying job imo.

lol, like your opinion is going to change anything.

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