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sirsam

Second Round Surgery Specialities

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Currently doing my interviews for CARMS. I went for a very competitive surgical specialty and only ended up with 3 interviews. I am feeling a bit overwhelmed as I didn't back up with anything else. I love procedures and was wondering what are the chances for matching in the second round to a surgical specialty? 

I went through the past match results on CARMs website and it seems that there are odd spots in Urology/Vascular surgery in the past. However, I heard anecdotally that these were held for IMGs. Is that true? 

 

Thx

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On 1/25/2020 at 9:00 PM, sirsam said:

Currently doing my interviews for CARMS. I went for a very competitive surgical specialty and only ended up with 3 interviews. I am feeling a bit overwhelmed as I didn't back up with anything else. I love procedures and was wondering what are the chances for matching in the second round to a surgical specialty? 

I went through the past match results on CARMs website and it seems that there are odd spots in Urology/Vascular surgery in the past. However, I heard anecdotally that these were held for IMGs. Is that true? 

 

Thx

The urology spot at Ottawa was traditionally a forced (by the university) IMG seat that the program wouldn't fill first round if there was no acceptable IMGs. It used to be left unfilled some years but due to university politics over the past 5 years or so they fill it with a CMG in the second round if it is unfilled by an IMG.

Universities in Ontario used to love IMG seats because they got extra government funding vs a CMG seat (Don't know if that's still true under the conservatives). The universities were so concerned about the extra money that I know programs at my residency institution were told if they didn't fill an IMG seat because they didn't have the capacity to train the CMGs + IMG/CSAs, the university would cut a CMG seat that year to ensure the IMG/CSA seat got filled. 

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On 1/28/2020 at 12:19 AM, NLengr said:

The urology spot at Ottawa was traditionally a forced (by the university) IMG seat that the program wouldn't fill first round if there was no acceptable IMGs. It used to be left unfilled some years but due to university politics over the past 5 years or so they fill it with a CMG in the second round if it is unfilled by an IMG.

Universities in Ontario used to love IMG seats because they got extra government funding vs a CMG seat (Don't know if that's still true under the conservatives). The universities were so concerned about the extra money that I know programs at my residency institution were told if they didn't fill an IMG seat because they didn't have the capacity to train the CMGs + IMG/CSAs, the university would cut a CMG seat that year to ensure the IMG/CSA seat got filled. 

Ahh the politics....The IMG seats in the end goes to the Canadians who can't get into North America medical schools, and end up studying abroad with strong social/familial connections. Life sucks!

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On 1/25/2020 at 7:30 PM, sirsam said:

Currently doing my interviews for CARMS. I went for a very competitive surgical specialty and only ended up with 3 interviews. I am feeling a bit overwhelmed as I didn't back up with anything else. I love procedures and was wondering what are the chances for matching in the second round to a surgical specialty? 

I went through the past match results on CARMs website and it seems that there are odd spots in Urology/Vascular surgery in the past. However, I heard anecdotally that these were held for IMGs. Is that true? 

 

Thx

Sorry that you are in this situation. Its always worth applying second round to a surgical residency spot, especially one that is in the specialty you already applied for. But know that the chances are going to be very slim. Many of these unfilled spots are because they didn't find someone they liked, or it was a CMG spot they are reserving for an IMG or vice versa. The main point though is, if a program wants someone, they will find a way to get them in. 

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I think Ottawa Uro was an exception

Second round spots weren't held for anyone in particular at my university IME. The program would just scramble to get someone acceptable CMG or IMG. The funding differences between IMGs and CMGs were usually shuffled to other programs to balance things out.

Mostly our second round problem was that we'd already seen and rejected the entire remaining applicant pool as unsuitable.  If we wanted you we would have ranked you somewhere. True match flukes where there was a great candidate left in the second round were ultra-rare. 

Also in regards to the CMG bitterness,  "family contacts" don't count for anything at this level.  Having a professional contact (i.e. a senior resident or staff) push for you is what makes the difference when it come to getting ranked.  That's all on the applicant to cultivate themselves.

Debating the merits of IMG spots existing at all is a long fight, but the vast majority of CMGs match to their first choice specialty when the majority of IMGs don't match at all. The ongoing resentment seems a little petty. 

 

 

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11 hours ago, jnuts said:

I think Ottawa Uro was an exception

Second round spots weren't held for anyone in particular at my university IME. The program would just scramble to get someone acceptable CMG or IMG. The funding differences between IMGs and CMGs were usually shuffled to other programs to balance things out.

Mostly our second round problem was that we'd already seen and rejected the entire remaining applicant pool as unsuitable.  If we wanted you we would have ranked you somewhere. True match flukes where there was a great candidate left in the second round were ultra-rare. 

Also in regards to the CMG bitterness,  "family contacts" don't count for anything at this level.  Having a professional contact (i.e. a senior resident or staff) push for you is what makes the difference when it come to getting ranked.  That's all on the applicant to cultivate themselves.

Debating the merits of IMG spots existing at all is a long fight, but the vast majority of CMGs match to their first choice specialty when the majority of IMGs don't match at all. The ongoing resentment seems a little petty. 

 

 

Family contacts don’t count for anything at this level? I can quote you several anecdotes that would go directly against that for both CMG and IMG applicants. It’s naive to think nepotism doesn't exist in residency selection.

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It counts but I would imagine if it counted that much it would have got them in the 1st round. Being the PD's nephew is different than being the R2's thrice removed cousin.

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On 3/1/2020 at 11:13 PM, Aetherus said:

Family contacts don’t count for anything at this level? I can quote you several anecdotes that would go directly against that for both CMG and IMG applicants. It’s naive to think nepotism doesn't exist in residency selection.

I can't speak for every school, but in five years of being on the selection committee nepotism rarely came up. When it did, the candidates merits and personal contacts mattered much more (and we didn't end up ranking any of the candidates that are coming to mind TBH).  Decisions never came down to otherwise equal candidates. 

Bitterness will out and mentors will offer hollow words to console failed mentees.  I think that's the source of a lot of that crap.  Being stuck side-by-side with a dud is never worth the risk just to keep someone happy.

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I will say family contacts matter at the selection stage only if that person is in the department and has political power within that department. Other than that, even in related specialties or at other centers the effectiveness is diminished greatly, it may even backfire a little because the expectation is that you have an easier time getting papers and accomplishments. 

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